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The Trinity

OZ,

Thanks for this. This seems to be how many understand it. I've looked at this understanding, but I just can't reconcile it with Scripture. I've not met anyone who can really explain the doctrine. I think the reason is because it's actually a logical contradiction. When people speak of God they say He. If the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, we have three persons. I don't see how three persons can be one person. I do see how three persons could all have the title of deity or God. When God is used as a title and applied to the three it fits. But what I find is that many believe there is God, a He, who consists of three persons. This I cannot reconcile. I find it a logical contradiction.

I don't understand the "Trinity" that way. As I posted to JLB, I believe there are two persons not three. Yes the Bible speaks of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and in that sense we have Trinity. However, I believe the Holy Spirit is a limited manifestation of the Father.
 
Butch5,

I don't see how three persons can be one person.
Click to expand...

You didn't read my post carefully. I said that we have:
  1. One essence (the one God) and
  2. Three persons.
what I find is that many believe there is God, a He, who consists of three persons. This I cannot reconcile. I find it a logical contradiction.
Click to expand...

In my view, the error I see you making is that you cannot affirm these 3 statements in the Bible:

  1. God is three persons (Matt 28:18-20).
  2. Each person is fully God (see my posts above with the Scriptures), and
  3. There is one God (Scriptures above).
JLB said:
I’m aware that some people say this.

If you don’t want to believe the KJV or the NKJV, then what version do you want to believe?

JLB
Click to expand...

JLB,

I believe the NT translations based on the UBS and Nestle Aland Greek texts that go back to much earlier NT MSS than the 12th century MSS of the Textus Receptus on which the KJV of 1611 is based. The NKJV is based on the same inferior text.

The TR by Erasmus didn't even have the last 6 verses from the Book of Revelation. He translated those verses from the Latin Vulgate. No MSS from that time to now agrees with the Erasmus' translation.

I'll take the ESV, NIV, NLT and NRSV any day of the week ahead of the KJV and the NKJV. The latter 2 are based on the Textus Receptus.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
Butch5,



You didn't read my post carefully. I said that we have:
  1. One essence (the one God) and
  2. Three persons.


In my view, the error I see you making is that you cannot affirm these 3 statements in the Bible:

  1. God is three persons (Matt 28:18-20).
  2. Each person is fully God (see my posts above with the Scriptures), and
  3. There is one God (Scriptures above).


JLB,

I believe the NT translations based on the UBS and Nestle Aland Greek texts that go back to much earlier NT MSS than the 12th century MSS of the Textus Receptus on which the KJV of 1611 is based. The NKJV is based on the same inferior text.

The TR by Erasmus didn't even have the last 6 verses from the Book of Revelation. He translated those verses from the Latin Vulgate. No MSS from that time to now agrees with the Erasmus' translation.

I'll take the ESV, NIV, NLT and NRSV any day of the week ahead of the KJV and the NKJV. The latter 2 are based on the Textus Receptus.

Oz
Click to expand...


Ok
 
OzSpen said:
In my view, the error I see you making is that you cannot affirm these 3 statements in the Bible:

  1. God is three persons (Matt 28:18-20).
Click to expand...

I don’t claim God is three persons.


I believe the three are one.

Matthew 28:18-20 does not say God is three persons.

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Matthew 28:18-20


  • baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Stating that Matthew 28:18-20 says God is three persons is grossly misrepresenting scripture.


The scripture says these three are one.

The scripture does not say, this one is three.


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7


JLB
 
OzSpen said:
Butch5,



You didn't read my post carefully. I said that we have:
  1. One essence (the one God) and
  2. Three persons.


In my view, the error I see you making is that you cannot affirm these 3 statements in the Bible:

  1. God is three persons (Matt 28:18-20).
  2. Each person is fully God (see my posts above with the Scriptures), and
  3. There is one God (Scriptures above).


JLB,

I believe the NT translations based on the UBS and Nestle Aland Greek texts that go back to much earlier NT MSS than the 12th century MSS of the Textus Receptus on which the KJV of 1611 is based. The NKJV is based on the same inferior text.

The TR by Erasmus didn't even have the last 6 verses from the Book of Revelation. He translated those verses from the Latin Vulgate. No MSS from that time to now agrees with the Erasmus' translation.

I'll take the ESV, NIV, NLT and NRSV any day of the week ahead of the KJV and the NKJV. The latter 2 are based on the Textus Receptus.

Oz
Click to expand...
I read it. Maybe I should have asked for clarification. What do you mean by "one essence".

I'm not sure what you mean by I can't affirm the three statements. I don't claim the first one. I'm not sure what you mean by "fully God" and the last one I do agree with.
 
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit

THIS is how we become part of the family of GOD

John 14:20 On that day, you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

The day you are baptized into the family

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Showing Jesus is above us and the Father above Jesus

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he (the Father) "has put everything under his feet (Jesus)." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him(Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself (the Father), who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father)who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all. - - - this is where God means family

This verse explains EVERYTHING clearly. The Father is almighty, Jesus under the Father and then believers under Christ.......God = Family
 
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Butch5 said:
Ok. What is a Godhead?
Click to expand...

The Godhead is the Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Colossians 2:9


In the OT God in the origami was Elohim.


JLB
 
JLB said:
The Godhead is the Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Colossians 2:9


In the OT God in the origami was Elohim.


JLB
Click to expand...

But that's three not one.
 
Butch5 said:
But that's three not one.
Click to expand...

Yes.


These three are one.


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7





JLB
 
JLB said:
Yes.


These three are one.


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7





JLB
Click to expand...
I'm not following you. How is there one God, if the Father is God, the Son is God and the Spirit is God? When you say one God, do you mean one being?
 
Butch5 said:
I'm not following you. How is there one God, if the Father is God, the Son is God and the Spirit is God? When you say one God, do you mean one being?
Click to expand...

The scripture from 1 John 5:7 doesn’t say One God.

The emphasis seems to indicate one in unity.

That‘s why I said one Godhead.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


What does the whole of scripture teach that these three are one of?

One Godhead?
One Spirit?
One Family?


If we have three cups of water, the three cups of liquid is still water whether they are poured together in one picture, or they are in three individual cups.


Their essence is still water.

Its not called three cups of waters.

Its called three cups of water.

God (Elohim) in the Hebrew, is a plural word, not singular.


So, the question is, from your study of the Bible as a whole, what is the one, that these three are?


One Godhead?
One Spirit?
One Family?
None of the above?
All of the above?



JLB
 
JLB said:
The scripture from 1 John 5:7 doesn’t say One God.

The emphasis seems to indicate one in unity.

That‘s why I said one Godhead.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


What does the whole of scripture teach that these three are one of?

One Godhead?
One Spirit?
One Family?


If we have three cups of water, the three cups of liquid is still water whether they are poured together in one picture, or they are in three individual cups.


Their essence is still water.

Its not called three cups of waters.

Its called three cups of water.

God (Elohim) in the Hebrew, is a plural word, not singular.


So, the question is, from your study of the Bible as a whole, what is the one, that these three are?


One Godhead?
One Spirit?
One Family?
None of the above?
All of the above?



JLB
Click to expand...
OK, you're talking about essence. That's what I was trying to figure out. Many if not most claim that God is a He and then say each of the three is God. That is essentially saying that there is a being call God who consists of three other beings called God.

I don't believe that the three are three persons. I believe they are two. The word theos or God is a title that means deity. So, I see that the Father is Deity and the Son is Deity. In that sense the Father and Son are God. However, they are not one person. I believe Paul's statement, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. I believe the Holy Spirit is also the Father only in a limited manifestation.
 
OzSpen said:
Butch5,

From where do you gain that understanding from Scripture?

Oz
Click to expand...
From different passages found in Scripture. For instance,

19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Lk. 11:19-20 KJV)

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Matt. 12:27-28 KJV)

These are both accounts of the same event. One says Jesus cast out demons by the finger of God, the other says it was by the Holy Spirit. In order to reconcile these, they have to be the same. The finger of God and the Holy Spirit have to be the same.

Another would be Jesus conception, Jesus called God the Father, His father. Here's what Scripture says.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:30-35 KJV)

It says that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. If the Holy Spirit is a third person then the Father is not Jesus' father. For God the Father to be Jesus father, He has to be the Holy Spirit.

There are other passages such as these that suggest this.
 
Butch5 said:
From different passages found in Scripture. For instance,

19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Lk. 11:19-20 KJV)

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Matt. 12:27-28 KJV)

These are both accounts of the same event. One says Jesus cast out demons by the finger of God, the other says it was by the Holy Spirit. In order to reconcile these, they have to be the same. The finger of God and the Holy Spirit have to be the same.

Another would be Jesus conception, Jesus called God the Father, His father. Here's what Scripture says.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:30-35 KJV)

It says that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. If the Holy Spirit is a third person then the Father is not Jesus' father. For God the Father to be Jesus father, He has to be the Holy Spirit.

There are other passages such as these that suggest this.
Click to expand...

Butch5,

Don't you have Bible commentaries by God's teachers to help you understand what is going on in these 2 different (but associated) passages?

I recommend this commentary (online) by Dr L Constable, Notes on Matthew. Matt 12:24-25 is on pp. 213-214.

Oz
 
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