The Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

I'm not surprised. No anti-Trinitarian ever does address those passages which prove too difficult for their position.

I could give an answer to most passages, but I prefer to concentrate on a few, especially those that I have developed what I consider a reasonably clear explanation.

I guess that explains it, doesn't it? Don't believe everything you were taught in Sunday School.

Almost an amusing comment, but I consider the Notes for our 3 levels Junior, intermediate and Senior x 5 years for each level, thus covering from say 4y.o. to 18y.o. to be excellent guides to the Bible teaching, both the stories and the doctrines. Many 18y.o's are then ready for baptism. I also treasure the years that I have spent in the Senior Adult Class.

What name is that and how does it show the above?

The Yahweh Name encompasses what God the Father would accomplish and become. This has resulted in the birth, ministry and sacrifice of Jesus, that is salvation in and through Jesus.

That's begging the question. This is why I keep asking for a verse that shows Yahweh is the Father only.

That's why I keep on quoting Psalm 110:1 and Jesus' use of this in Revelation 3:21. I suggest that Trinitarians do not like Psalm 110:1 which is the most quoted and expounded OT reference in the NT.

It might be worth bearing in mind that believers, as a whole, are the new temple of God, with Jesus in us through the Holy Spirit. The above verses may not be speaking of a literal temple in Jerusalem.

I believe in the return of Jesus to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

How exactly is the concept "both impossible and contradictory"? Saying it is doesn't make it so, especially since the Bible makes it clear that that is the case.

The whole concept of two natures, a human portion that is lacking in knowledge and needing to grow in wisdom and a Divine portion that is all-knowing and all-wise, a weak frail human being subject to death and a Divine Being (whoops - Person) all powerful, immortal, etc., etc.

On what basis? First, "he" isn't in the Greek, so we can't just go arbitrarily adding it into the English. Second, it makes no sense in the context. Jesus is contrasting Abraham's existence with his--Abraham's is temporal and finite; Jesus's is absolute existence.

Were the KJV translators incorrect when they added "he" in John 8:24, 8:28 and 9:9. Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God Genesis 3:15 before Abraham came on the scene.

And that makes little sense in the context as well. "I Will Be" doesn't communicate a whole lot about God; it's rather nebulous and abstract. "I Am," on the other hand, immediately gives a number of concrete attributes of God, and that he can therefore be absolutely trusted.

I have explained my understanding on the Yahweh Name, "He will be/become".

Are you disagreeing that a son is always the same nature as his father? If it's different for Jesus, then the language of Father and Son is meaningless and communicates nothing to us. That would be odd since it is used throughout the NT. God is the original; humans are the analogies. Since we know that sons are always the same nature as their fathers, it follows that the Son must also be the same nature as the Father.

My understanding and experience of a father/son relationship is that my father preceded me and ultimately caused me to be conceived and born when he was 31 years old. I also have four children, two sons and two daughters, and they did not exist before I was married. But you claim that Jesus had two natures when he was born, so are you denying now that Jesus had God as his father in the conception/birth process, but that this particular father/son occurrence and relationship necessitated that Jesus only had the Divine Nature?

Are you saying that God created God the Son at his conception/birth? Or are you claiming that the Father/Son relationship goes back to eternity, and how is this a Father/Son relationship? Seems more like two Gods, or two Brothers. Did the Father precede the Son in any way, and is he superior to the Son? What does it mean that Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father John 1:14? For example, you been on this 37 page repetitious thread from page 1 and you claim there the following:

Except that the doctrine of the Trinity is quite different than what you have stated. Basically stated, it is that within the one being that is God, there exists three coeternal, coequal persons.
That is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have each always existed as fully and truly God, yet, the Father isn’t the Son, and neither are the Holy Spirit. All of the same essence but distinct one from the other.

If the Father, the Son have each always existed as fully and truly God, where is there a true father/son relationship?

On the contrary, if Jesus was only just a man, even a "very unique and special man," then at most he secured his salvation and the forgiveness of the sins of his followers at that time, for a limited period of time. If Jesus isn't also truly God, there is no salvation.

Jesus was a human specially prepared, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection and he is the captain of our salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Consecrated_Life,

God's comprehensive claim that :
"Isaiah 42:8 (KJV): I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another "
Has no application to " false worshipers" ,graven images, or evil men

Sorry for the delay in answering this post as it came through late Saturday night Australian time, and I was busy Sunday, and also have spent a fair bit of time today, Monday on a house repair job. I will not quote the rest of your post as it seeems a bit off subject, and you fail to understand what I am saying. When I read your post early Sunday before going to Sunday School I thought it may be interesting to look at a few Commentaries, and to see if they apply Isaiah 42:8 in support of the Trinity, or whether they give a similar view to what I have presented. Well, I ran out of time, and have only had the opportunity to look at one Commentary.

The following is from Alec Motyer's Commentary on Isaiah. He is a reasonably well known expositor, and he is a Trinitarian from the Church of England. He write the following on Isaiah 42:8-9:
"The self-proclamation of the Lord reveals him as a distinct personal identity with his own name; he does not exist ‘incognito’ in the world’s gods. His glory cannot be shared. They may ape him, achieve a coincidental resemblance, but he is not there. There is an element of hostility in the situation. He will not ultimately tolerate the according to dead gods of the praise due to him alone. The distinction proved in 41:21–29 remains: it is the Lord who predicts and fulfils
Isaiah 42:9 (KJV): Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them." Motyer, J. A. (1996). The prophecy of Isaiah: an introduction & commentary (p. 322). IVP.

You also like quoting the following:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

My tentative understanding of this is that Jesus was speaking about the anticipated glory that he would receive that was mentioned and prophesied in the following:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Also, seeing you like speaking about "glory", how do you understand the following:
John 12:16 (KJV): These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Please note here that it is the Father's Name that was to be glorified, and Jesus does not say, "Glorify our Name".

Also in the same chapter we have a vision of Jesus in glory, but where is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit?
John 12:37–41 (KJV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
This is not a picture of the Trinity, but a vision of Jesus in Isaiah 6 upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem during the future 1000 year reign in the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr. G Lee]

That verse doesn't have anything to do with God or the Trinity. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are all eternally distinct and coequal.

I would offer we must be careful how we hear or say we do .Satan the spirit of false prophecy, false apostles is quick to try and snatch the seed . We focus on the path of light of the word. God is light .God is Sprit and God is Love .

Eternal God remains without mother or father is without genealogy.(Hebrews 7)

God as Spirit is God .. and not a man as and neither is there any infalible fleshly (dying mankind) that sits as a umpire between God not seen and dying mankind seen.

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

A daysman today. . . a Pope (venerated mankind )

Jesus the Son of man denied that daysman invitation as a wile of the devil .He said to the one who bowed down to his dying flesh .Calling the Son of man, Jesus Good master teacher as Lord .

.Jesus refusing to sit in the seat of the abomination of desolation (making the word of God as it is written without efect) , Jesus gave glory to the unseen Holy Father showing the reflecting power of God. Eternal God making himself known through his temporal dying creation.

Mark 10:17-18King James Version And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

He is not known after a human family he creates them . It why he said call no man on earth Holy Father

Two is the witness God has spoken(the law of faith ) let there be and it took form .

The Holy Father revealing his power working in the Son of man our brother in the lord .

Trinity was invented to make room for the "queen mother of heaven" . His and hers gods. It was passed down from the old testament fathers (Jeremiah 44) that exalted themselves up above sola scriptura teaching she alone received the fullness of grace(the full cost of salvation) while the rest of the planet an unknown remnant of grace and they must continue to suffer wonder, suffer wonder with no end in sight . . limbo lower now a damnable oral tradition of dying mankind the only one that is judgeable.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Dark place in need to increase the gospel light

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings wondering,

You are using the same ill-informed logic as Free.

We're discussing here.
We don't know who has the ill-informed logic.
It could be you.

Do you really thing you could understand everything about God?
I doubt that anyone of us could.

How do you read the following which speak of the conception/birth of Jesus?
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Who or What is the Holy Spirit?
He's going to allow Mary to conceive.
Is he an alien?
Is he a spirit? A ghost?

Whatever He is, He's going to make a baby.
What is that baby going to be?
Who or What is the Holy Spirit?

Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Son of God.
God has a Son,.
Is that Son human or God?

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Kind regards
Trevor

The Word was made flesh.
What was the Word before it became flesh?

Also, that word BEGOTTEN can be confusing.
Begotten doesn't mean something was made, it only means that something is unique, the only one, nothing else like it.


Do you believe in any of the Christian creeds?
Here's what one states:

JESUS was BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE,
ONE IN BEING WITH THE FATHER.

Jesus was not made.
He always existed.
Try John 1:1 again.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It goes on to say that the Word was made flesh....
But the Word of God always existed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam is the son of god. Your science is questionable.

???

What I asked is:

If God has a son....
what is that son?

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again wondering,

The word ''begotten" is the same process described in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father caused Jesus to be conceived by means of God's power, the Holy Spirit, resulting in his birth. As such God became the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Mary his mother with the result that Jesus became a human, the Son of God and the son of Mary and thus through Mary the descendant of David and future heir of the Throne of David when Jesus returns to set up the Kingdom of God, centred in the literal Jerusalem for the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

Oh wow.
Yeah. Just as I thought.
I just posted to you and tell you what it means.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Wondering,

We're discussing here. We don't know who has the ill-informed logic. It could be you.

Yes, I accept the mild rebuke, it could be me, and I am willing to discuss this here.

Do you really thing you could understand everything about God?
I doubt that anyone of us could.

There is a lot revealed about God, and I like the following passage which to some extent is similar to your comment:
Isaiah 55:6–11 (KJV): 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Who or What is the Holy Spirit? He's going to allow Mary to conceive. Is he an alien? Is he a spirit? A ghost?
Whatever He is, He's going to make a baby. What is that baby going to be? Who or What is the Holy Spirit?

Do you have difficulty understanding these basic concepts? I understand the Holy Spirit is God's power that he uses to perform specific tasks. The Holy Spirit is not a "He", as it is God's power. I am not sure of the word "ghost", as this is most probably archaic. The baby is going to be Jesus, a human, the Son of God.

The Son of God. God has a Son,.Is that Son human or God?

A human, the Son of God Luke 1:34-35.

The Word was made flesh. What was the Word before it became flesh?

I understand that "The Word" is a similar personification as the Wise Woman "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8 who was with God in the Creation, and also similar to the partial personification of the spoken "word" in Isaiah 55:11 which I quoted above.

Also, that word BEGOTTEN can be confusing.
Begotten doesn't mean something was made, it only means that something is unique, the only one, nothing else like it.

How do you understand the margin rendition of the following:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg: Greek "begotten") in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Do you believe in any of the Christian creeds?
Here's what one states: JESUS was BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE, ONE IN BEING WITH THE FATHER.
Jesus was not made. He always existed.

The "Christian Creeds" are evidence of the Apostasy, a falling away from the Apostolic teaching, developed in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, and based on Greek philosophy, with a failure to understand the Bible teaching. How do you understand:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Try John 1:1 again. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
It goes on to say that the Word was made flesh.... But the Word of God always existed.

Please refer to my explanation above.

What I asked is: If God has a son.... what is that son?

A human the Son of God.

Oh wow. Yeah. Just as I thought. I just posted to you and tell you what it means.

Yes, and I have answered above.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7thMoon]

???

What I asked is:

If God has a son....
what is that son?

God has several progenies which don't include Adam and Jesus.

 

[Randy]

Greetings again Wondering,

Yes, I accept the mild rebuke, it could be me, and I am willing to discuss this here.

There is a lot revealed about God, and I like the following passage which to some extent is similar to your comment:
Isaiah 55:6–11 (KJV): 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


Do you have difficulty understanding these basic concepts? I understand the Holy Spirit is God's power that he uses to perform specific tasks. The Holy Spirit is not a "He", as it is God's power. I am not sure of the word "ghost", as this is most probably archaic. The baby is going to be Jesus, a human, the Son of God.

A human, the Son of God Luke 1:34-35.

I understand that "The Word" is a similar personification as the Wise Woman "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8 who was with God in the Creation, and also similar to the partial personification of the spoken "word" in Isaiah 55:11 which I quoted above.

How do you understand the margin rendition of the following:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg: Greek "begotten") in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The "Christian Creeds" are evidence of the Apostasy, a falling away from the Apostolic teaching, developed in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, and based on Greek philosophy, with a failure to understand the Bible teaching. How do you understand:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Please refer to my explanation above.

A human the Son of God.

Yes, and I have answered above.

Kind regards
Trevor

The Spirit of God is not just the power of God, but the Fathers own Spirit. (God) The mind and will of the Spirit is the Father as its His Spirit.

So he answered and said to me: “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.

For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

In regard to coming to and believing in the Son. No one calls Him Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. ' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.