The Trinity

[Consecrated Life]

The "Glory Of God" is God's alone, and God says He will share His Glory with no one.
Thus my Lord Jesus Christ the Son who has no beginning and no end has claimed the Glory of God co-equally with God the Father before the world began.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Based upon God's claim that He shares His Glory with no other, If you assert that Jesus Christ is not co-equal with the Father then based upon Jesus's specific claim of sharing God's Glory " before the world began" then one of them is a liar .
So who is the liar , God or Jesus Christ ?

Dude, you need a better old testament quote. I would say neither have lied.

Then you would be wrong .
God says he will not share His Glory with anyone.

Isa 42:8
"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another"

Feel free to dodge the question once more

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Consecrated_Life,

hen you would be wrong .
God says he will not share His Glory with anyone.
Isa 42:8: "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another"
Feel free to dodge the question once more

I am interested why you chop the rest of Isaiah 42:8 which shows that God is speaking about their false worship of idols:
Isaiah 42:8 (KJV): I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Now this is a poetic parallelism, and does not support your position as the One God, Yahweh, God the Father has exalted His Servant/Son as the context of Isaiah 42:8 clearly states.
Isaiah 42:1–8 (KJV): 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Matthew 3:13–17 (KJV): 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Philippians 2:5–11 (KJV): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The last two references are quoting and alluding to the First Servant Song/Prophecy as quoted Isaiah 42:1-8. and this shows how God's glory is revealed in and through our Lord Jesus Christ the Servant/Son of the One God the Father but the ultimate glory goes to God the Father, not a supposed God the Son or the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Consecrated Life]

Greetings Consecrated_Life,

I am interested why you chop the rest of Isaiah 42:8 which shows that God is speaking about their false worship of idols:
Isaiah 42:8 (KJV): I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Kind regards
Trevor

Nothing in the full sentence negates the fact that God says He does not share His Glory with anyone.
Yes or No ?

They are two separate statements addressing two separate issues, I only included the sentence of God outlining the confines of His Glory.
His " praise " not being at issue here.
Thus the word "neither" strategically place between the two sentences to emphasize the separation of issues being addressed.
You need to better familiarize yourself with the Kings English to pick up on such pointed distinctions .

The only sentence making application to Jesus's claim of co-equally sharing God's Glory is the former:
"my glory will I not give to another"

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Consecrated_Life,

Nothing in the full sentence negates the fact that God says He does not share His Glory with anyone.
Yes or No ?

I suggest that you are disregarding the full context and meaning of Isaiah 42:8 and its NT quotation, allusion and interpretation.

On the other issue, how do you and others understand the concept that Jesus is "The Son of God" and what does it really means that God is the Fater of our Lord Jesus Christ. Please give your understanding of what happened at the conception/birth of Jesus, and I have quoted three relevant passages Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14. What does John 1:14 mean and this does speak of the glory revealed in Jesus: John 1:14 (KJV): "we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father". Not only does it speak of the glory revealed in Jesus, it describes him as "The only begotten of the Father". When was Jesus begotten?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Consecrated Life]

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV): I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Nothing in the full sentence negates the fact that God says He does not share His Glory with anyone.
Yes or No ?

The only statement making application to Jesus's claim of co-equally sharing God's Glory is the former:
"my glory will I not give to another"

Greetings Consecrated_Life,

I suggest that you are disregarding the full context and meaning of Isaiah 42:8 and its NT quotation, allusion and interpretation.
Kind regards
Trevor

Tell me then the full meaning as it pertains to the specific point we began our discussion with, whether or not God shares His Glory ?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Consecrated_Life,

Tell me then the full meaning as it pertains to the specific point we began our discussion with, whether or not God shares His Glory ?

You are using the very narrow logic that because God would not share his glory with idols, that somehow that this proves that He could not use Jesus in the way described to reveal God's glory and be the means of the central focus of our worship of God the Father as clearly stated in John 1:14 and Philippians 2:10-11. You seem to be inferring that your part quotation of Isaiah 42:8, God not sharing His glory, proves that Jesus is God. I suggest that all these passages prove Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son or part of the Trinity.

Considering Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 when did God the Father become the father of our Lord Jesus Christ and when did Jesus become the Son of God? If Jesus is fully God and fully man, what portion of Jesus did God the Father become the father of Jesus Christ and when. Did God become his father at the conception/birth of his humanity? When did God become the father of the Divine side of Jesus, say "God the Son"? Did God the Father create another "God", or person, or being, God the Son? Does the term "Only begotten of the Father" John 1:14 relate to his human or his Divine side of Jesus "the God-man"? Please explain "begotten" and "only begotten".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Consecrated Life]

Tell me then the full meaning as it pertains to the specific point we began our discussion with, whether or not God shares His Glory ?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Consecrated_Life,

Tell me then the full meaning as it pertains to the specific point we began our discussion with, whether or not God shares His Glory ?

I do not have any additional detail to share. Please refer to my previous posts that show that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the central focus of our worship and this is by means of, or perhaps in a fuller meaning, through our Lord Jesus Christ and the salvation outworked through Jesus. The work of Salvation was initiated and accomplished by God the Father through His Servant/Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Seeing you do not seem to be interested in answering my questions about God as "Father", I would be interested in the response by others. I have great difficulty trying to guess how Trinitarians view this, especially as some here were insisting that the title "The Son of God" necessitates that Jesus during his ministry must have had the same nature as God his father. Did God the Father beget a "God", and when did God the Father beget Jesus, or "God the Son"?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Consecrated Life]

Tell me then the full meaning as it pertains to the specific point we began our discussion with, whether or not God shares His Glory ?

Greetings Consecrated_Life,

You are using the very narrow logic that because God would not share his glory with idols,

Kind regards
Trevor

"Glory" is not "praise"
Yes ?
No?
Use a dictionary and you will see Praise and Glory have completely different meanings.
Thus in the context of the passage " Another" is used separately in specific reference to God's Glory.
And "graven image" is used separately in reference to God's praise.

If the passage read as you are struggling to interpret it, it would be shorter with no need to include the word "another"

It would simply read like this:

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV): I am the LORD: that is my name: and I will not give my glory and praise to graven images.

Rather than actual :

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV): I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Consecrated_Life,

If the passage read as you are struggling to interpret it, it would be shorter with no need to include the word "another"

If you demand that it is speaking of Persons or a Person apart from the idols, the context includes both the false worshipers and their prophecies and their idols:

Isaiah 41:21–29 (KJV): 21 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. 23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. 24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you. 25 I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay. 26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words. 27 The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings. 28 For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word. 29 Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Consecrated Life]

Greetings again Consecrated_Life,


If you demand that it is speaking of Persons or a Person apart from the idols, the context includes both the false worshipers and their prophecies and their idols:

Kind regards
Trevor

God's comprehensive claim that :
"Isaiah 42:8 (KJV): I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another "

Has no application to " false worshipers" ,graven images, or evil men

You are demonstrating a profound lack of spiritual discernment in thinking the possibility ever existed that evil men, "false worshipers " and graven images could somehow ever be covered with His Glory, and God needs to clarify in writing that such a thing is not possible.

Your thought process that such a possibility ever existed in the first place certainly explains such an extreme misapplication.

Obviously we are miles apart in thinking that the ability of evil men, false worshipers, or graven images to clothe themselves in God's Glory ever existed .

To this bizarre belief that you have you have yet to provide any scripture where evil men, false worshipers, or graven images were ever able to clothe themselves in God's Glory ?

Having no ability to provide such a bizarre scripture to back up your claim you need to ask yourself , why would God need to clarify something found nowhere in scripture ?

 

[7thMoon]

It still is definitely monotheism. Again, if people want to argue against the Trinity, they need to argue against the actual doctrine of the Trinity and not a straw man version. Monotheism has always been a foundation of Trinitarianism.

Greco-Roman concepts of mangods have part of its early development.

 

[7thMoon]

Then you would be wrong .
God says he will not share His Glory with anyone.

Isa 42:8
"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another"

Feel free to dodge the question once more

42:8 אֲנִי יְהוָה הוּא שְׁמִי וּכְבוֹדִי לְאַחֵר לֹֽא־אֶתֵּן וּתְהִלָּתִי לַפְּסִילִֽים׃
"I am YHWH; an other it is my name, and my I will not give my glory to anything the else, nor my praise to the idols."
As you can clearly see, it has everything to do with idolatry. The problem is not that Jesus can't save; it is that he won't.

He didn't give his glory to his son, even in your NT verses. It says his name and glory are not given to any others.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

He had glory before the world of the early church. The NT has no support for man-gods.

 

[Consecrated Life]

42:8 אֲנִי יְהוָה הוּא שְׁמִי וּכְבוֹדִי לְאַחֵר לֹֽא־אֶתֵּן וּתְהִלָּתִי לַפְּסִילִֽים׃
"I am YHWH; an other it is my name, and my I will not give my glory to anything the else, nor my praise to the idols."
As you can clearly see, it has everything to do with idolatry.

You see no distinction in the meaning of the word "Glory" and the word "Praise"?
Really ?

Back it up scripturally then by doing the following .
I'll start by quoting a scripture in which God gives His "Praise" .
And for every scripture I quote God giving His Praise , You match it giving a scripture of God giving His Glory ?
Do we have a deal ?
Or is do you have the nerve the more applicable question ?
I'll even allow you to plead TrevorL's help in your scramble to locate a scripture showing God giving away His Glory.
Two against one .
Are you game ?

 

[7thMoon]

You see no distinction in the meaning of the word "Glory" and the word "Praise"?
Really ?

Back it up scripturally then by doing the following .
I'll start by quoting a scripture in which God gives His "Praise" .
And for every scripture I quote God giving His Praise , You match it giving a scripture of God giving His Glory ?
Do we have a deal ?
Or is do you have the nerve the more applicable question ?
I'll even allow you to plead TrevorL's help in your scramble to locate a scripture showing God giving away His Glory.
Two against one .
Are you game ?

God's glory and praise are connected in the verse as to ward off idolatry. I simply don't see the son and the Father sharing glory, even in the NT. So Jewish/Noahide objection is not really noteworthy; and your ignorance about the verse as a warning against image worship is interesting.

 

[7thMoon]

the glory which I had with thee before the world was is not the same glory as God's glory. Tebel/Kosmos has a less wide meaning in Greek and Hebrew.

 

[Consecrated Life]

the glory which I had with thee before the world was is not the same glory as God's glory. Tebel/Kosmos has a less wide meaning in Greek and Hebrew.

There is only one Glory that has ever existed.
And you cannot show one verse between the front and back cover of the bible in which that Glory is mentioned as being anyone's but Jesus Christ .

 

[7thMoon]

There is only one Glory that has ever existed.
And you cannot show one verse between the front and back cover of the bible in which that Glory is mentioned as being anyone's but Jesus Christ .

(1Co 15:41 KJV) [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

You were saying!

 

[7thMoon]

It still is definitely monotheism. Again, if people want to argue against the Trinity, they need to argue against the actual doctrine of the Trinity and not a straw man version. Monotheism has always been a foundation of Trinitarianism.

I will say this. Idolatry has always been a foundation of the trinity doctrine also.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings Consecrated_Life,

You are using the very narrow logic that because God would not share his glory with idols, that somehow that this proves that He could not use Jesus in the way described to reveal God's glory and be the means of the central focus of our worship of God the Father as clearly stated in John 1:14 and Philippians 2:10-11. You seem to be inferring that your part quotation of Isaiah 42:8, God not sharing His glory, proves that Jesus is God. I suggest that all these passages prove Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son or part of the Trinity.

Considering Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 when did God the Father become the father of our Lord Jesus Christ and when did Jesus become the Son of God? If Jesus is fully God and fully man, what portion of Jesus did God the Father become the father of Jesus Christ and when. Did God become his father at the conception/birth of his humanity? When did God become the father of the Divine side of Jesus, say "God the Son"? Did God the Father create another "God", or person, or being, God the Son? Does the term "Only begotten of the Father" John 1:14 relate to his human or his Divine side of Jesus "the God-man"? Please explain "begotten" and "only begotten".

Kind regards
Trevor

What do you believe BEGOTTEN means?