Not at all. It's difficult and cannot be fully comprehended, but that shouldn't come as a surprise since God is infinite and we are not.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The Trinity
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
I stated by His Son
“I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me
I stated by His Spirit
those who listen to the Father and learn from Him
Father, Son, Spirit
I list 2 Persons. The unbegotten God and His only like to like begotten Son. The Spirit who proceeds from the Father is not a person.
I believe I addressed your naming confusion.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
I agree the Father via or by His Spirit sends us or gives us to Jesus for our life and it is the Father who glorifies His Son.
But showing who the Spirit comes from, (The Father), doesn't weaken its His Spirit just as "HE" alone states. Jesus speaks of it as another.
Yes the "Trinity Doctrine" is what can't be explained.
This is clear
"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands."
Yes, but I was addressing this statement of yours: "You have noted in speaking of the persons of the trinity that Jesus speaks of the Spirit as another. I have pointed out that the Father does NOT."
If the Father speaks by his Son, as you correctly say, then the Father has said the Holy Spirit is another. So, you say that "the Father does NOT," speak of the Holy Spirit as another, yet, you say the Father speaks by the Son. You can't have it both ways, so which is it?
You also have the problem of the Father speaking by the Son, who is a person, yet you're saying that the Father also speaks by the Holy Spirit, who somehow is not a person. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was "another Helper," which tells us a couple of things. First, the Holy Spirit is "another," that is, one who is similar to Jesus but distinct. That speaks of personhood. Second, "Helper" clearly speaks to personhood, especially since it also means "advocate." An advocate can only be a person. Here is how parakletos is defined:
NAS Word Usage - Total: 5
- summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
- one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
- one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
- of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
- in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
- of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom
John uses the same word here, for "advocate":
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)
Notice that Jesus is said, by John, to be an advocate. It is not insignificant, then, that he records Jesus saying that he will send "another parakletos."
But he is. I have given a fairly lengthy list of things the Holy Spirit does that only persons do.
What naming confusion? The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God's Son, and the Spirit of Jesus. There is no confusion on my part.
Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as "another parakletos," yes, but as I have pointed out, "another" is significant as well. If I'm at someone's house and have a piece of cake for dessert, and they ask if I want another, and I say yes, I do not expect to get a piece of pie or a steak, I expect another piece of cake like the one I just had.
It can be explained, it just can't be fully comprehended. These are the things the Bible makes clear that we need to make sense of:
1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is a person and is truly God.
3. The Son is a person and is truly God.
4. The Holy Spirit is a person and is truly God.
5. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit.
Only the doctrine of the Trinity makes the most sense of these points by taking all that God reveals of himself in the Bible.
It not a hard relationship.
Jesus proceeds from the Father.
The Spirit proceeds from the Father.
The Father calls Jesus His Son.
The Father calls the Spirit His own.
I don't follow your reasoning.
Jesus didn't state the Spirit living in Him was doing His work. He stated the Father living in Him was doing His work.
Jesus didn't state He and the Spirit are one. He stated He and the Father are one.
Jesus didn't state those who listen to the Spirit and learn from the Spirit come to Him. He stated those who listen to the Father and learn from Him come to Him.
Rather than go on and on we will have to agree to disagree.
All of which I agree with, but to just leave it at that is to divorce all those things from the greater context, including that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is worse than blaspheming Jesus, that the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God's Son, and the Spirit of Jesus, and that Jesus said the Holy Spirit was "another parakletos."
It's actually very straightforward.
Again, I agree with these things, but to leave at just these things is to ignore everything else I have stated, and much of what the Bible states. There is much more that is said about the Spirit, as I have shown, which must be taken into account. This is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity is a superior explanation, because it takes everything into account.
If that's what you want, but you haven't addressed most of what I have given.
I don't share your reasoning. The Father calling Jesus His Son would see Jesus as a person not the Father. The Father calling the Spirit His own as in "my Spirit" would not be seen as another person. Taking action through each as speaking by doesn't change that in my mind. Furthermore the Father sending His Spirit in Jesus's name addresses the naming of the Spirit as the Spirit of Christ in my mind with the belief that that Spirit conveys the will and mind and presence of Christ in me or the believer. So both the Father and Son make their home with us as its still the Spirit of the Father. As in the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I don't view that Spirit as having its own distinct mind as a person should. Its the Spirit of God. It acts and speaks according to the will of the mind of the Father or Son only. Speaks only what He hears. Intercedes according to the will of the mind of God. Conveys according to the will of the Father or Son in that manner only. I don't think I can ever convince you otherwise to your satisfaction so yes I do want to end this discussion.
It is fully comprehendible as being what it is: confusion.
If you're confused, that's on you. I've studied it long enough and thorough enough that I'm fine.
Your conclusion doesn't follow. You're continuing to ignore many passages of scripture, not the least of which are Jesus saying the Spirit is "another parakletos" and blaspheming the Spirit is worse than blaspheming the Son, which means you're taking the ones you present out of context.
Not to mention, don't you find it odd that God is spirit and yet the Bible says he has a spirit? What is the "Spirit of God" if "God is spirit"?
This is all begging the question.
Act 10:19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. (ESV)
Act 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. (ESV)
Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (ESV)
Do non-persons speak and use personal pronouns?
Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: (ESV)
Do non-persons give approval?
Act 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. (ESV)
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (ESV)
Do you believe that we have a spirit that survives death?
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (ESV)
Can non-persons will?
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (ESV)
Can non-persons be grieved?
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? (ESV)
Can non-persons be outraged?
That is unfortunate. I choose to pursue truth, wherever it leads.
This seems like the spirit, in knowing, is a person. So how much more the Divine Spirit of God.
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God
I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
So if God is Spirit and the Father is God what are you calling His Spirit? There is only one Spirit and there is only one true God or unbegotten God the Father. The Fathers Spirit would not be working independent from the thoughts and "will" of the Fathers mind as another person.
I call him what the Bible calls him: Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of Jesus, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of his Son, Spirit of truth, Spirit of grace, etc.
If there is only one Spirit and he is only the Father's Spirit, then why is he also called the Spirit of Christ? It can't be because the Spirit was sent in Jesus's name. Spirit of Christ denotes the Spirit belonging to Christ, just as Spirit of God denotes the Spirit belonging to God. That Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be sent in his name shouldn't change the name of that Spirit.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (ESV)
"God has sent the Spirit of his Son," not "God has sent the Spirit in the name of the Son."
You are equating the Holy Spirit with the Father, but the language "Spirit of God" speaks of something or someone distinct from the Father. If the Father says he will "pour out [his] Spirit," yet he is spirit, then he is pouring out himself, so why say he will pour out his Spirit? Why wouldn't God just say he will pour himself out? Why the continual and consistent distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Father?
Yet, there was never a time when the Son did not exist, as several passages attest to.
None of the three persons act independently. They are always, at all times, in perfect union and agreement.
You are "Free" to call the Spirit of Adonai Yahweh (Isaiah 61:1) a person. You are "Free" to believe in a coeternal being who states He has a Father and a God.
I not ashamed of my creed. I read two persons.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Nor my belief. I read two persons.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
God the Father has a Spirit. Such a Spirit is Holy, truth, eternal, divine. The Spirit proceeds from Him. The Spirit of God acts, speaks, conveys according to the will of the mind of God not as an independent person in the world and those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus. Jesus has been shown to have His own ,mind, will and Spirit. To me He qualifies as a person who is not to Father.
No such person of just Spirit was acknowledged, by the Host of heaven as to Honor, power and glory.
The Father was honored.
You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”
The lamb was honored. -What happened to God the Spirit the person?
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever
So as I stated we will have to agree to disagree.
Here is the issue:
Here is what Yahweh says of himself:
Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
But then look at what Jesus calls himself:
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
(All ESV.)
Why do you think it is that Jesus uses these titles of himself that Yahweh uses of himself, as well as "I Am"? Do you think a son can be of a different nature than his father? If yes, can you provide an example? If no, then does it not follow that Jesus is also God, although he is the Son?
Coeternal beings do not have a Father or a God.
The Father is in the Son and they are one. Therefore Jesus is the First and last.
The Son is in me therefore I am the seed of Abraham.
Jesus is all that the Father is and in that context is God.
Moses asked for a name and in that answering God used I Am that I Am.
Jesus stated before Abraham was born I AM.
Jesus knows the Father is the only true God He stated so. Even the Church assigns the Father alone as unbegotten.
In regard to Jesus Its stated-Begotten from the Father alone before all worlds but not made - I agree in part.
As in all things Jesus received from the Father.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
That is fallaciously begging the question.
And the Son is in the Father, but that is not why Jesus can claim the same titles for himself that God does.
But it would be blasphemous for you to claim for yourself the name I Am or the titles Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
If he is all that the Father is, then it necessarily follows that he is also God in the fullest sense.
Exactly. Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh.
Of course, but that does not mean Jesus is not also truly God in the fullest sense. A son is always the same nature as his father.
Which is also why the Church says that he is eternally begotten, being of the same essence.
And, yet, John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17 all say that all things came into being through Jesus, that not one thing that has come into being came into being apart from him. The only logical conclusion is that Jesus cannot have, at any point, come into being. If there was a time when the Son did not exist, then his coming into existence would be the beginning of the creation of time and space, but that would contradict the above verses as well John 1:2-3, among others. But the Son has always existed. This is why:
1. Jesus can claim the name I Am.
2. Jesus can claim the titles that God uses of himself.
3. Both Paul and the writer of Hebrews ascribe OT passages about Yahweh to Jesus.
4. Thomas calls Jesus his Lord and his God.
5. God is love.
If there was ever a time when the Son did not exist, then all those passages, and many others, are false.
Everything He has He received from the Father.
The Father has not received from any other being. Jesus stated "before" Abraham was born I AM. Again Moses asked for a name. Clearly Jesus's answer was age related in reply to His accusers. Not I AM that I AM - Jesus was given a name. No need to ask.
Col 1:19
Hebrews 1:2
Matthew 28:18
John 17:8
Philippians 2:9
Even the glory of oneness was given to Him and Jesus gave us that same glory of oneness with Him.
And I am in Christ and He is in me
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
Persons who have no beginning do not have a Father nor a God. John 1:18 The only begotten Son in the Fathers presence.
Last edited: