The Trinity

[Free]

That would mean that each member of the Trinity is the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God.

Again, this shows you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. There is only one God who has always existed as three coequal, coeternal, divine persons. If you don't believe that, you don't believe the Trinity.

I believe that the Son is the Son in that He is come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

You believe the Father came and took on human flesh, becoming the Son. But that is heresy. You believe that the Father is his own Son, which is not what the Bible teaches. It makes the use of father and son language completely irrelevant and superfluous. One has to completely ignore language and its meanings to believe such an idea. Based on the language used in the NT, it consistently distinguishes between the Father and the Son, both preincarnate and post.

What is logically impossible with man is not always impossible with God.

Again, anything that is logically impossible is still impossible with God, simply because it is nonsense. As C. S. Lewis said, "Nonsense is still nonsense, even when it is spoken of about God." As beings made in God's image, God gave us reasoning minds so that we can communicate with each other and him, so that we can understand him, so that we can create, so that we can do all that we do. Logic and reason are necessary to our survival, and it all comes from God. So, if something is logically impossible, it's logically impossible even for God because it is, by definition, nonsense.

I addressed it by telling you that no one is denying that Jesus is the Son of God.

You are denying he is the Son of God in the way the Bible says he is the Son of God, the way he said he was the Son of God. He never was and never will be the Father come in the flesh.

He is come in the flesh.

Hebrews 10:5 tells us that a body was prepared for Him; I believe that this is the sense in which the Father sent the Son; by preparing for Him a human body.

Perhaps you should start at the beginning of Hebrews, where the Father calls the Son God (1:8), and then claims that it was the Son who "laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning," that "the heavens are the work of your hands" (1:10). In fact, verses 10-112 are quotes from Pslam 102:26-28, where they are attributed to Yahweh.

And that agrees with John 1:1-18, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:15-17.

The Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended to take on an added nature of human flesh.

Of course he didn't, because he didn't take on human nature, the Son did.

Jesus had that glory with Him before the world existed because in ascending, He would be ascending to again exist outside of time (Ephesians 4:10).

No, he is speaking about before creation began, which is what John 1:1-18, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:15-17 tell us.

It is. I don't think that you are able to see that when Philip said, Shew us the Father, Jesus was surprised that Philip didn't understand that He was the Father ("How is that you have not known me, Philip?") in response to his query, shew us the Father.

Because you have a pre-conceived idea in your head that is based on what is historically believed about God instead of what is written in holy scripture.

What is historically believed is believed for a reason: because it is what the Bible says.

No, I am not denying that.

I stated: "You are if you're denying that the Son existed in eternity past as distinct from the Father."

You here have denied that is the case. Yet, when I said: "As the pre-incarnate Son, he existed outside of time, eternally as God. That is at the heart of Trinitarianism."

You reply with this:

Yes, His pre-incarnate form is that He is the Father (Isaiah 9:6, John 14:7-11).

Which contradicts what you just said and supports what I said. If the Son, in his pre-incarnate form is that he is the Father, then he cannot also have existed in eternity past as distinct from the Father.

I'll have to address the rest later.

 

[heartwashed]

Again, this shows you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. There is only one God who has always existed as three coequal, coeternal, divine persons. If you don't believe that, you don't believe the Trinity.

In one of the Trinitarian creeds, it is written, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord; yet we are forbidden by Catholic doctrine to say that there are three Lords.

If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not three Lords, but one (Ephesians 4:5) according to the doctrine of the Trinity, how are they three Persons according to the same doctrine?

You believe the Father came and took on human flesh, becoming the Son. But that is heresy.

What Bible verse or passage defines it as heresy?

I find that it is biblical doctrine according to Isaiah 9:6 and John 14:7-11.

You believe that the Father is his own Son, which is not what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches, in Isaiah 9:6, that the son that was given shall have the name of "The everlasting Father."

You can take that at face value or you can try to change the wording of scripture. But to get any kind of result, you have to do that twice.

Again, anything that is logically impossible is still impossible with God,

It is not logically impossible with God for the son to have the name of "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

You are denying he is the Son of God in the way the Bible says he is the Son of God, the way he said he was the Son of God. He never was and never will be the Father come in the flesh.

The name of the son that was given shall have the name of "The everlasting Father". The zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7.

Perhaps you should start at the beginning of Hebrews, where the Father calls the Son God (1:8),

In doing so, He is calling the Son, the Father (see 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

Of course he didn't, because he didn't take on human nature, the Son did.

Wrong.

The Son is the Son in that He is come in human flesh.

It would be more accurate to say that the Word took on human nature.

And the Word was God (the Father, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

No, he is speaking about before creation began,

Yes, outside of time includes before creation began.

What is historically believed is believed for a reason: because it is what the Bible says.

What about what the Jehovah's Witnesses have historically believed? Is that what the Bible says?

You are not taking into account that the flesh gives way to heresy, Galatians 5:19-21.

I stated: "You are if you're denying that the Son existed in eternity past as distinct from the Father."

You here have denied that is the case. Yet, when I said: "As the pre-incarnate Son, he existed outside of time, eternally as God. That is at the heart of Trinitarianism."

You reply with this:
Which contradicts what you just said and supports what I said. If the Son, in his pre-incarnate form is that he is the Father, then he cannot also have existed in eternity past as distinct from the Father.

Yes, He could have.

Because He ascended to exist outside of time (Ephesians 4:10, Isaiah 57:15); which includes eternity past.

 

[heartwashed]

So, does that make Him 1/3 of God or a 2nd God?

I've already answered this but the fact you even asked it once shows that you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

I think that you accept a creed but have not sought to understand what is meant by the things that are mentioned in that creed.

You can spout off the words, that God is one God in three Persons...

But you have to answer for yourself how God can be three and yet also One.

I have answered that question for myself; I understand how it can be.

I don't just spout a creed; I understand what is meant by my creed.

 

[heartwashed]

I think also that both of you emphasize the three-ness of God so much that you do not understand the Oneness of His Triune nature.

I would suggest focusing in on His Oneness (to the exclusion of His three-ness) for a season and when you are done with that season you can return to the verses that speak to you of His three-ness and see if they don't speak to you a little differently.

 

[for_his_glory]

So, is it your contention that the Son existed in eternity as a Spirit next to the Father as a separate Person from the Father?

I would contend that if they are distinct rather than separate, there is a sense in which they can be one.

The same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God.

But if they are separate, then that is two Spirits;

And your concept is contrary to holy scripture (Ephesians 4:4).

Because the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).

And the Word is a Spirit (John 4:24).

Also, One who inhabits eternity by definition inhabits eternity for ever.

Therefore the Word would not be vacating eternity in descending to become human.

And therefore, when He ascends again to inhabit eternity (to fill all things, Ephesians 4:10),

You now have two Persons defined as the Word inhabiting the eternity.

And therefore your belief is not in the Trinity but in a Quadrinity.

You are misunderstanding what we are telling you. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all the very Spirt that is God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are co-equal to the Godhead as being that very Spirit within them that is God working in them. All the same Spirit, but separate in God's plan of salvation before the founding of the world. All three have always been eternal without beginning or end. Jesus nor the Holy Spirit work on their own power or authority, but as God gave them to speak and do. Jesus was the very word of God made flesh sent to save sinners. After He ascended back up to sit at the right hand of God making intercession for us before Him, Jesus also sent down the Holy Spirit to teach us all truths, John 1:1-14; John 14:23-26.


John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[for_his_glory]

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.

If you would stop and read what we have posted we have been saying this all along as both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are co-equal within the Godhead.

 

[for_his_glory]

In one of the Trinitarian creeds, it is written, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord; yet we are forbidden by Catholic doctrine to say that there are three Lords.

What does Catholic doctrine or any man made doctrine have to do with the Doctrines of Christ if they are not teaching from what is already written in scripture. You keep mentioning these Trinitarian creeds. Can you give us what is written word for word?

 

[for_his_glory]

heartwashed you need to go read CF Statement of Faith as you are not agreeing to the Biblical foundation that this board is built upon. Here is a snippet about the Trinity.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).

You are allowing certain man made doctrines of the Catholic church to teach you, but are being taught in great error as I can see know where your theology comes from.

 

[heartwashed]

@heartwashed you need to go read CF Statement of Faith as you are not agreeing to the Biblical foundation that this board is built upon. Here is a snippet about the Trinity.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).

I have no disagreement with these statements and I don't think that I am saying anything contrary to them.

If you think that I have, please use the quote feature and quote my statements and I will attempt to show you how they do not contradict these statements in context.

 

[heartwashed]

What does Catholic doctrine or any man made doctrine have to do with the Doctrines of Christ if they are not teaching from what is already written in scripture. You keep mentioning these Trinitarian creeds. Can you give us what is written word for word?

I got this online.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

The Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is >Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another;
But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his manhood;
Who, although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sitteth at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

 

[heartwashed]

What does Catholic doctrine or any man made doctrine have to do with the Doctrines of Christ if they are not teaching from what is already written in scripture.

I think that I would therefore agree with you that the creeds don't give the ultimate understanding of what we know to be the Trinity as a doctrine.

Which brings it back to you defining my doctrine as heresy.

On what basis?

If you do not define it as such on the basis of the creeds, then what Bible verse or passage defines my doctrine as such?

 

[heartwashed]

If you would stop and read what we have posted we have been saying this all along as both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are co-equal within the Godhead.

Are "they" one Lord, or three Lords?

 

[heartwashed]

You are misunderstanding what we are telling you. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all the very Spirt that is God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are co-equal to the Godhead as being that very Spirit within them that is God working in them. All the same Spirit, but separate in God's plan of salvation before the founding of the world. All three have always been eternal without beginning or end. Jesus nor the Holy Spirit work on their own power or authority, but as God gave them to speak and do. Jesus was the very word of God made flesh sent to save sinners. After He ascended back up to sit at the right hand of God making intercession for us before Him, Jesus also sent down the Holy Spirit to teach us all truths, John 1:1-14; John 14:23-26.


John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

I don't have any disagreement to what you have said above.

 

[heartwashed]

I would say though that I believe that the Godhead is indivisible.

While I do believe and teach a distinction between the Persons in the Godhead.

If you read what I have written, you will gain a greater understanding as to my position.

Feel free to quote any statement I have made and then quote any scripture you can think of that you think contradicts that statement.

I am here for discussion.

 

[heartwashed]

In one of the Trinitarian creeds, it is written, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord; yet we are forbidden by Catholic doctrine to say that there are three Lords.

If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not three Lords, but one (Ephesians 4:5) according to the doctrine of the Trinity, how are they three Persons according to the same doctrine?

Here, I am not making a statement but asking a question.

For I do believe in a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

However, I believe that they are the same Spirit (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4); and therefore, in a sense, the same Person.

While they are also distinct from one another as Persons in that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

 

[for_his_glory]

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is >Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another;
But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.

Thank you for sharing those three creeds.

As what is written in your post this is exactly what Free and I have been telling you all along, but you are overtalking our replies with a preconceived mind that we are wrong and have no clue what the Trinity is. You need to slow down and read what others are saying.

BYW, there is no such thing as Catholic faith, not Protestant faith, or any faith of over the 5000 different religions that are out in the world, but only Faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God does not even recognize any organized religions, but is about us having a personal relationship with Jesus and being led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Which brings it back to you defining my doctrine as heresy.

I never said your doctrine is heresy, but how you present it is very confusing as you say one thing then turn around saying something totally different.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are "they" one Lord, or three Lords?

We have already answered this several times and with many scriptures that apparently you are not even taking the time to read.

 

[for_his_glory]

heartwashed even though I respect your views you are not hearing what we are saying as none of us have ever said there are three God's. I feel it's time for me to walk away as you are not here to discuss, but to persuade us to believe everything you say as being right and we being wrong, or at least that is how I see it.

God bless you and have a good evening

 

[heartwashed]

As what is written in your post this is exactly what @Free and I have been telling you all along, but you are overtalking our replies with a preconceived mind that we are wrong and have no clue what the Trinity is. You need to slow down and read what others are saying.

You have not been putting your responses in context to the question that I am asking. Perhaps you believe that the scriptures that you have referenced answer my question; but you have not been posting those scriptures in reference to my question but have posted them in a manner that is unrelated to my question.

We have already answered this several times and with many scriptures that apparently you are not even taking the time to read.

I have read all of the scriptures that you have been referencing many times; but if you do not post your scriptures in the formulation of an answer to my question, all I have are your scriptures and have no correlation to how you think your scriptures answer my question.

heartwashed even though I respect your views you are not hearing what we are saying as none of us have ever said there are three God's. I feel it's time for me to walk away as you are not here to discuss, but to persuade us to believe everything you say as being right and we being wrong, or at least that is how I see it.

God bless you and have a good evening

Okay, it is your prerogative to discontinue with the conversation.

But I do think that I have made my point that if the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God, that that is three Gods and three Lords.

You can give lip service to the idea of one God while catering in your inherent thinking to the idea that there are in fact three Gods and three Lords.

I would encourage you to understand the implications of your creedology and to recognize when your underlying beliefs don't line up with the understanding of the Trinity.

For the doctrine of the Trinity implies a Tri-Unity.

If you believe in the Tri- but not the -Unity, your underlying belief makes you a Tritheist rather than a Trinitarian.

No matter how much you may protest on the outside, "I believe in one God", your underlying belief belies the fact that you are worshipping three Gods and giving lip service to the concept of one God when in all reality you don't believe in one God but rather in three Gods or three Lords.

I would encourage you to read what I have written so far and to study it and meditate on it so that you can get an accurate understanding of the true nature of God being a Triune Person.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Also, it is possible that the principle of Luke 7:29-30 is at play here and that you are unable to accept the truth because you have not been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins; and therefore do not have the promise of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:38-39 and Romans 8:30).