The true Israel

[Ashua]

Things are not this simple. For starters, lets talk about the Genesis 17 text.

The following text from Genesis 17 is often used to argue that God promised the land of Canaan to the Jews forever:

I will give the whole land of Canaan – the land where you are now residing – to you and your descendants after you as a permanent possession. I will be their God.â€

The Hebrew word that is translated as “permanent†is the word “owlamâ€. Note how the definition of this word is fluid – embracing the eternality that would support the common reading of this text (that Canaan has been promised to the Jews forever), but also allowing for a reading that does not denote eternality:

Definition (from Net Bible): 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

And here we have an example from Isaiah 42 of this same word used in a context where eternality is certainly not intended:

The LORD emerges like a hero,
like a warrior he inspires himself for battle;
he shouts, yes, he yells,
he shows his enemies his power.
I have been inactive for a long time;
I kept quiet and held back.
Like a woman in labor I groan;
I pant and gasp.
I will make the trees on the mountains and hills wither up;
I will dry up all their vegetation.
I will turn streams into islands,
and dry up pools of water.

Clearly God is talking about talking action after a long period of “inactivityâ€. So here, the word “owlam†does not denote an everlasting period of time – it denotes a limited duration of time.

So one cannot simply assume that Genesis 17:8 entails a promise of Canaan to the Israelites forever. That is one reading that needs to be considered, but there are others as well.

Technically, you are right about the Hebrew. However, as it is written a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. God always works on monumental scales in his time line. Jesus was supposed to be coming back "soon" and it has been 2,000 years since. If you are a Biblical 6 day, 6,000 year creationist, mathematically, it would seem that not enough time has gone by to fulfill "ovlam".

If you look at other verses where the word Ovlam is used, such as instances where God's personal name is to be Ovlam in duration, or that God is said to be OVLAM (everlasting) So if Ovlam suggests an end, that would mean God will cease after enough time elapses.

Perhaps how the covenant made by God to Abraham is OVLAM. (If Abraham's covenant is OVLAM, then why does Paul use it for his argument that salvation is by faith according to the covenant with Abraham... if it is a covenant of limited duration, Paul's argument collapses like a house of cards. So if One of God's covenants (even an older one which predates Israel) is literally "forever", why are you using the word to argue that God's later covenants of Ovlam nature are ended? On what grounds???

Also, the Romans 11 Exegesis and 2 Samuel haven't been addressed. You know how "peer review" is supposed to be a check and balance mechanism in science? So it is when you review interpretations of scripture against other scripture. If Israel's visitation was ended, Paul would not have said to the contrary.

 

[jasoncran]

You're the liar because you're a sinner who can't interpret the scriptures with the truth.

The nation Israel is all God's created people and the remnant of Israel are those chosen and created to be the Word. They are the prophets, Jesus and us saints.

this is in violation of the tos please read them and cease from attacking members personally. attack the argument no the person.

 

[Ashua]

You're the liar because you're a sinner who can't interpret the scriptures with the truth.

The nation Israel is all God's created people and the remnant of Israel are those chosen and created to be the Word. They are the prophets, Jesus and us saints.

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. -John 8:59

 

[The Word]

this is in violation of the tos please read them and cease from attacking members personally. attack the argument no the person.

I wasn't attacking anyone. I have the truth in me to know who a sinner is or not and all sinners are liars until they become a sinless saint.

If the sinner doesn't get rebuked of his lies from a legitament saint, he will never know the truth.

1 John 1:
6: If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;

1 John 2:
3: And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 3:
8: He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Ashua]

I wasn't attacking anyone. I have the truth in me to know who a sinner is or not and all sinners are liars until they become a sinless saint.

If the sinner doesn't get rebuked of his lies from a legitament saint, he will never know the truth.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. -1 John 1:8

Priceless.

 

[The Word]

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. -John 8:59

I get stones caste at me everyday in these forums, mainly by Christian sinners who don't have the truth. Not one Christian in over 1600 years has been a sinless saint and preached the gospel. The Roman government killed all the saints before they started the false religion of Christianity.

 

[The Word]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. -1 John 1:8

Priceless.

It's obvious you reject the scriptures that you don't want to see.

 

[Ashua]

I get stones caste at me everyday in these forums, mainly by Christian sinners who don't have the truth. Not one Christian in over 1600 years has been a sinless saint and preached the gospel. The Roman government killed all the saints before they started the false religion of Christianity.

Are you a sinner?

Lets see how the NEW TESTAMENT defines sin.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. -1 John 3:4

Do you transgress the law? If you offend in yet ONE point you are guilty of all. And if you be a sinner, why then do you judge me? Can a murderer condemn another murderer from the judgment seat? Is that fit?

 

[jasoncran]

I wasn't attacking anyone. I have the truth in me to know who a sinner is or not and all sinners are liars until they become a sinless saint.

If the sinner doesn't get rebuked of his lies from a legitament saint, he will never know the truth.

1 John 1:
6: If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;

1 John 2:
3: And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 3:
8: He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

no you called him a liar. that is an attack. i wont argue this with you i know what you did.

just because you think he is wrong doesnt mean he is in sin. not all have the same level of knowledge or revalation of the word at the same time.

God teaches us at different things thus the bible is alive.

i would sit in church and the pastor would teach one thing and the holy spirit would deal with me on another area. or he would with one verse deal with me and that is all i got.

its the same when we read the bible.

 

[jasoncran]

thread reopened.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Either Israel is God's nation forever or he is a liar. Which way will you have it?

And who does God call his Israel?
Are you sure it is the same Israel as he who calls himself Israel?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus is Israel ! Isa 49:3

 

[Strangelove]

Either Israel is God's nation forever or he is a liar. Which way will you have it?

Genesis 12:1-3
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 17:4
"As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

Genesis 17:7
I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

Genesis 18:18-19
Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.

For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.

Genesis 22:17-18
I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies...

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Joshua 21
43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23
1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

2 And Joshua called for all Israel, and for their elders, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers, and said unto them, I am old and stricken in age......

14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. 16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Joshua 24
2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel....

13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.

14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

29 And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathserah, which is in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of Gaash.
31And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

Genesis 22:17-18
I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies...

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Luke 1:54-56
He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

Continued........

 

[Strangelove]

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Matthew 1:1
A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Philippians 3:3-9
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith...

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

John 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Matthew 12:6
But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.

Romans 3:30
Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Romans 4:16
Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.


Who is the True Isreal?

 

[Strangelove]

If people can't see from that scripture I just posted, that the true Isreal of God is Christ and anyone who believes in Him....then I just cannot help you any further.

Doc.

 

[jasoncran]

who then are 144,000 isrealites?

christians? so we have tribes as they did then and what of the gender that says they are only men.

you cant just oh they are spiritual so they are an elders who have crowns that throw them at the lord in worship that are from each tribe in heaven?

yet that means?

i do think that those are mentioned as they convert in the trib and God uses them just like he does today with the messanic jews.

and what of my annoying reference in acts 1?
that the lord said that he said its not for you to know and he never said that the kingdom of isreal isnt restored or wouldnt be only that apostles were to focus on soul winning and where to tarry for the h.s.

and if you say we are isreal then we lost the kingdom surely the apostles knew that they were already in the kingdom of God when they asked that question.

or the idea that Jesus reigns from Jerusalem. that should mean something he hasnt forgotten that city for why would it matter if he was done and forsook isreal forever then jerusalem means nothing to him as he doesnt need a temple to dwell in as we are his temple.

 

[Ashua]

If people can't see from that scripture I just posted, that the true Isreal of God is Christ and anyone who believes in Him....then I just cannot help you any further.

Doc.

Ok. Let's see how saying Jesus is Israel in the sense that he replaces "natural" Israel. (I'm pretty sure you are all getting this from the chapters leading up to Isaiah 53)


Anyways, lets see how this works out by plugging "Jesus" into "Israel" and see if national Israel isn't what the NT is talking about...





Romans 11 (King James Version)

Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Jesusite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Jesus saying,

3Lord, they (Israel/Jesus) have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Jesus hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them Jesus the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they Jesus stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Jesus[/color], until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Jesus shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they Jesus are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they Jesus are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


Yeah, makes perfect sense. I challenge any of you to talk about Romans 11. Tell me how this works in your replacement theology. It's more like Two houses. Not utter replacement.

 

[jasoncran]

good point. i am jesusite. i like that.

 

[Ashua]

good point. i am jesusite. i like that.

A Jesusite of the tribe of Benyamin no less!!

 

[jasoncran]

what is the times of the gentiles mean. jesus plainly states that jerusalem shall remain trodden under till the times of the gentiles be full.

hmm comments.