The true Israel

[Ashua]

There is a difference.
Those 144,000 overcome.They recieve that name.
But I believe they are also of the tribes of Jacob as well.

Fair enough, but in the last days doesn't it say "So all ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED?"

That is --all of Israel which "overcomes" in the last great battle which is described in Zechariah 12-14?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Wait, wait, wait.

Are you saying "Yeshua" is no longer called by that name, but rather has a brand new name which we will call him forever? (Israel)???

Oh, do show where you get this from if you are indeed saying this. The only thing that even remotely comes to mind is in Revelation where he has a name written on his thigh: King of Kings and Lord of Lords. --And even that is a title of symbolic elevation. --not an actual name.

Revelation 3:12 (King James Version)

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


That new name is given to them that overcometh.
Forever

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Fair enough, but in the last days doesn't it say "So all ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED?"

That is --all of Israel which "overcomes" in the last great battle which is described in Zechariah 12-14?

The beast is in the land of Israel today and he calls himself Israel.
I do not believe that beast will be saved.Do you?

 

[jasoncran]

of course not all of the people in isreal are going to saved that is clear. i will observe ashua counter response since he knows the verses well and is doing a good job.

 

[Ashua]

Revelation 3:12 (King James Version)

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


That new name is given to them that overcometh.
Forever

So it does. I see you have something of a case for that statement now, but I fail to see how you can be so sure ISRAEL is that "new" name.

Then again....

Good ole' translations..


The word translated as the phrase: "and my new" (name) is the Greek word Kanon. The definition of this word is simply "new". Not "My new"

Another verse which uses the word is Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new (kanon) heaven and a new (Kanon) earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Notice how the word "my" is inferred by the translator?

It could just as easily be translated:

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] a new name

This meshes with Isaiah 56 where he says "Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off."

Now I am not masterful with Greek, but from cross-referencing other verses with the same exact word and conjugation, ... it would appear translators decided that.

 

[Ashua]

Still:

The nations will see your righteousness, and all kings your glory; you will be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will bestow. -Isaiah 62:2

So I'm going to concede to the translations.

Now, what makes you think Israel is the new name AND how would that prove the people Israel of the nation which was restored per Ezekiel is reprobate?

What is to say the "wicked" Jews will be purged from before the nation Israel?



Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you. -Zechariah 8:23

 

[Ashua]

Zechariah 12

1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Comments?

 

[Strangelove]

Ok. Let's see how saying Jesus is Israel in the sense that he replaces "natural" Israel. (I'm pretty sure you are all getting this from the chapters leading up to Isaiah 53)

Anyways, lets see how this works out by plugging "Jesus" into "Israel" and see if national Israel isn't what the NT is talking about...
Yeah, makes perfect sense. I challenge any of you to talk about Romans 11. Tell me how this works in your replacement theology. It's more like Two houses. Not utter replacement.

Huh?

Are you serious? You think that we're claiming that the NT NEVER speaks about ancient OT 'natural' Isreal? LOLZ! And thats the best rebuttal you can come up with is Romans 11 and say 'look see thats gotta be natural Isreal!.....so when Isreal is mentioned in ALL the NT it has to be natural Isreal too!'

Lol....oh dear.

It's called DISCERNMENT Ashua! We're talking about what is the TRUE Isreal....OF GOD! Who inherited the promise! Of course natural Isreal was talked about in the NT Lolzzzzzzzz.....

I don't even know what you're arguing about. Just answer me this simple question.

Do you need the Grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for Salvation...YES OR NO?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Israel defined by God is not by blood race, physical lineage or descendant jew. There is a difference with God between physical and literal Israel and the Israel of God, Children of Promise, premised on New Birth and ethnicity is not relevant. The True Jews and Israel before God are circumcised in the heart rather in the flesh, its not a physical heritage or bloodline, but born of God, of the Spirit Jn 1:



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Israel of God, the Israel that God Loved are the Children of God, but Abraham's seed according to the Flesh, they are not the children of God rom 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

There is no National people of the flesh that God has promised to save, those who believe that, they are deceived.

There is a spiritual and Holy Nation 1 pet 2:

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

But this has absolutely nothing to do with National Israel of the flesh over in the middle east today..

But they are Abraham's seed according to Promise, a Chosen spiritual Family of all the nations of the world..

 

[Strangelove]

what is the times of the gentiles mean. jesus plainly states that jerusalem shall remain trodden under till the times of the gentiles be full.

hmm comments.

3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

AND

21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away
captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So we have a contradiction here. THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE.
And yet scripture continues to talk about Jews and Gentiles.

Why?

Can you work it out?​

 

[Strangelove]

***CRICKETS***

Oh sorry..Am I allowed to get some sleep at night?

***Baseballs***

 

[Strangelove]

People just dontr understand the purpose of this thread.
Jesus is Israel.You cant argue with this.
But there are so many people on this board would rather ignore the scripotures just so they can support the beast who claims to be Israel.

Theres only two at the moment who are clinging onto the nation state of isreal buddy. Ashua and Jason.

The fact that more Christians arn't prepared to stand up for the obvious truth is slightly disconcerting though.

 

[jasoncran]

3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

AND

21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away
captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So we have a contradiction here. THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE.
And yet scripture continues to talk about Jews and Gentiles.

Why?

Can you work it out?​

LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZ! theres neither humans too!

uh what part didnt you get that says they will believe we do! God is using us to provoke them to return.meaning they will depart from the ot way as accept CHRIST.

but LOlZ there's also no male nor female too. meaning that woops i'm married to what a man. for all are in Christ and what is he a male.

guess i'm stupid for not seeing what that verse means.

why then did the apostle being totally unaware of that nature of "isreal" ask such a silly
things as this

"Will you then restore the Kindgdom to isreal? when they LOLZ were to talking to the Isreal who just said a few weeks ago i wont eat nor drink with them till the the kingdom comes."when in fact they knew that he was going to the father and to the be sitting on the throne at the rights of GOD.

meaning he was going to rule.! rule what? the earth?

 

[jasoncran]

then why did jesus say that then? and he used the word gentile. which aslo can mean nations.

think about. the blessings and curses hit the jews first then the gentile.

so why didnt jesus go the gentiles first if all are equal? and they are. but he has to honor some silly promise to abraham.

meaning that his seed in the flesh would have to be sought first by the lord and he says that he came for the lost sheep of the house of isreal.

now then unless you want to argue that niether is there greek nor jew verse simply means that theres no sex or literally flesh that were in at present.

you dont have much of a point.

the promise is that jew once he sees the messiah and repents of his sins will be able to recieve his land and live in the nationa boundaries of isreal.

capish! that is what i and ashua say that only those JEWS who believe will be in that nation state.

he is a present saving us gentiles and not so much the jews, in the tribualtion that changes the jews through deception will see the ac and cry out to the lord he saves them.

then only then is the nation state of isreal restored.

the current one is the attempt of men and also with God saying it would be this. the jew trying to return to God the ot way.

i am not saying that the jews there are saved at all.unless they come to christ.

 

[Strangelove]

LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZ! theres neither humans too!

uh what part didnt you get that says they will believe we do! God is using us to provoke them to return.meaning they will depart from the ot way as accept CHRIST.

but LOlZ there's also no male nor female too. meaning that woops i'm married to what a man. for all are in Christ and what is he a male.

guess i'm stupid for not seeing what that verse means.

why then did the apostle being totally unaware of that nature of "isreal" ask such a silly
things as this

"Will you then restore the Kindgdom to isreal? when they LOLZ were to talking to the Isreal who just said a few weeks ago i wont eat nor drink with them till the the kingdom comes."when in fact they knew that he was going to the father and to the be sitting on the throne at the rights of GOD.

meaning he was going to rule.! rule what? the earth?

I think I can clear up this 'time of the Gentiles' thing for you mate.

The 70th week was half fulfilled during the life-time of Messieh and the other half or three and one half years in the Church ending when the times of the Gentiles was fully come in. The 69th week ended and the 70th week began when Jesus walked down the banks of the Jordan to be baptized of John. When John said: *behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world,* he was for the first time identifying Jesus as the Messieh. There would be 69 weeks UNTIL Messieh. Only a novice would deny that Jesus was first recognized as the Messieh that day along the Jordan.


When Jesus came he said these words: *THE TIME IS FULFILLED* (Mark 1:15, Matt.26:54 he spoke of the 69 weeks past and the 70th week in progress). False teachers are reporting that what Jesus said was false, that the time before the revealing of the Messianic Kingdom is not fulfilled until the Millennial. Messieh was to be cut off after 69 weeks and in the midst of the next (Dan 9:27 see the ancient Septuagint Version on this verse). In the 70th he would cause all animal sacrifices to cease for remission of sin forever. He was cut off during a week and since the 69 were past, there remains only the 70th to be cut off in. If Jesus was not cut off in the 70th week, then the entire 70 weeks have no relationship to Jesus at all, and that is simply not true.

DAN 9:27 And he (Messieh) shall confirm the covenant ( Rom 15:8) with many for one week (70th): and in the midst of the week he (Messieh) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by the Cross), and for the overspreading of abominations (of the anti Messieh Pharisees and Sadducees) he shall make it (the old Temple) desolate, even until the consummation (70AD destruction), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the Temple torn down not one stone remaining upon another).

To anoint the Most Holy was fulfilled when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River as a signal the Messianic 70th week had begun, see Luke 4:18. The body of Jesus was the temple of God replacing the temple on Mount Moriah. The fulness of the Godhead now dwelt in Messieh, whereas before the Babylonian Captivity it dwelt behind the vail in the holy of holies. We (our bodies) are now the Temple of God, not a cursed and rejected old Temple site (1Cor. 3:16-17). That site was left eternally desolate (Mat. 23:38). The 70th Week was fulfilled three and one half years into the Church when the Gentiles were grafted in to bring its completion and the Messianic hope to its full reality.
The Law is FINISHED! It is OVER! The Law is fulfilled, completed, and finished, in Messieh. A new Covenant has been ushered in. The New Covenant IS NOT the old Covenant. The New Covenant is the EVERLASTING COVENANT, and salvation in this Testament is by the "BLOOD" of the everlasting Covenant (Heb 13:20). The Law IS NOT the everlasting Covenant! All that now remains is the Kingdom of God, the New Israel, the Church which is the Messianic Judaism of Jesus. Jew and Gentile MUST come into it or be lost forever. Until the day of the appearing of Jesus, all Jews and Gentiles must fulfill Acts 2:38 by faith or be eternally lost. There are no seven years reserved off of the Cross for Jews to be saved without Messieh by returning to animal sacrifices and building a new Talmudic-Cabalist Temple (Mark 16:16; 2Thes. 2:10).

Seventy Weeks Of Daniel

Jesus said the His Kingdom commeth no by observation. But you are looking for something physical for Him to rule. It's dominionism.

 

[Strangelove]

then why did jesus say that then? and he used the word gentile. which aslo can mean nations.

think about. the blessings and curses hit the jews first then the gentile.

so why didnt jesus go the gentiles first if all are equal? and they are. but he has to honor some silly promise to abraham.

meaning that his seed in the flesh would have to be sought first by the lord and he says that he came for the lost sheep of the house of isreal.

now then unless you want to argue that niether is there greek nor jew verse simply means that theres no sex or literally flesh that were in at present.

you dont have much of a point.

the promise is that jew once he sees the messiah and repents of his sins will be able to recieve his land and live in the nationa boundaries of isreal.

capish! that is what i and ashua say that only those JEWS who believe will be in that nation state.

he is a present saving us gentiles and not so much the jews, in the tribualtion that changes the jews through deception will see the ac and cry out to the lord he saves them.

then only then is the nation state of isreal restored.

the current one is the attempt of men and also with God saying it would be this. the jew trying to return to God the ot way.

i am not saying that the jews there are saved at all.unless they come to christ.

Right. Good to hear. So what were we arguing about again? You've got this attachment to fleshy isreal? Why?

Fleshy isreal does not contain the children of God. Jews are not the children of God. Would you agree?

It's undeniable surely?

 

[Sinthesis]

Mark me down as generally supportive yet particularly critical of both the Fleshy State of Israel and Rabbinic Judaism. You know, constructive criticism as required by Jesus' second commandment.:D

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Theres only two at the moment who are clinging onto the nation state of isreal buddy. Ashua and Jason.

The fact that more Christians arn't prepared to stand up for the obvious truth is slightly disconcerting though.

Ive stated my case to Jason and Jasaon denies the prophecies of the beast are being forfilled.
Ive not told Ashua anything yet,so I dont know what his responce shall be .He could stick with the antichrist beast or he might see it for what it is.As of now,he probably has no idea of what im talking about.

 

[jasoncran]

Right. Good to hear. So what were we arguing about again? You've got this attachment to fleshy isreal? Why?

Fleshy isreal does not contain the children of God. Jews are not the children of God. Would you agree?

It's undeniable surely?

its called acknowlegdment of this we are to reach them. really is it evil to say that we acknowledge thier rights to exist as a nation.

now then should we just let the hitlers, ahmeds kill them all.

so that jews for jesus link has an outreach. they go there to reach the gospel.

wow satanic.

must be evil aint it that we go there to do that!

do i support all they do,no
do i donate money to the synagouges no.

its a prophetic thing we see them go back as a nation.

that is all. we bless them by giving money thier poor. again gotta go against that evil command from some prating fool that died.

love those that persecute you.

yup real evil, aint it.

shiloh will you then be consisent that we americans are also on "stolen"land and have no rights here.

so i can stay i'm married to an native american.
gee i hope you are, if not pack your bags and go back to europe.

and no. muslims dont believe in the messiah not matter who you say

was jesus an idiot when he said this" he that gathereth not with me is agianst me.

to be in opposition to the lord doesnt that mean anti as well.

anti also means opposite or in opposition to last time i checked the dictionary

here it is basic english

prefix meaning “against,†“opposite of,†“antiparticle of,†used in the formation of compound words ( anticline ); used freely in combination with elements of any origin ( antibody; antifreeze; antiknock; antilepton ).


so i guess that the translation is wrong.

so then not only does the jews hate us, well guess all those who deny the lord all do. that doesnt mean that all will persecute but the lord did say that if you his you are against him

thus anti-christ.

 

[jasoncran]

I think I can clear up this 'time of the Gentiles' thing for you mate.

The 70th week was half fulfilled during the life-time of Messieh and the other half or three and one half years in the Church ending when the times of the Gentiles was fully come in. The 69th week ended and the 70th week began when Jesus walked down the banks of the Jordan to be baptized of John. When John said: *behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world,* he was for the first time identifying Jesus as the Messieh. There would be 69 weeks UNTIL Messieh. Only a novice would deny that Jesus was first recognized as the Messieh that day along the Jordan.


When Jesus came he said these words: *THE TIME IS FULFILLED* (Mark 1:15, Matt.26:54 he spoke of the 69 weeks past and the 70th week in progress). False teachers are reporting that what Jesus said was false, that the time before the revealing of the Messianic Kingdom is not fulfilled until the Millennial. Messieh was to be cut off after 69 weeks and in the midst of the next (Dan 9:27 see the ancient Septuagint Version on this verse). In the 70th he would cause all animal sacrifices to cease for remission of sin forever. He was cut off during a week and since the 69 were past, there remains only the 70th to be cut off in. If Jesus was not cut off in the 70th week, then the entire 70 weeks have no relationship to Jesus at all, and that is simply not true.

DAN 9:27 And he (Messieh) shall confirm the covenant ( Rom 15:8) with many for one week (70th): and in the midst of the week he (Messieh) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by the Cross), and for the overspreading of abominations (of the anti Messieh Pharisees and Sadducees) he shall make it (the old Temple) desolate, even until the consummation (70AD destruction), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the Temple torn down not one stone remaining upon another).

To anoint the Most Holy was fulfilled when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River as a signal the Messianic 70th week had begun, see Luke 4:18. The body of Jesus was the temple of God replacing the temple on Mount Moriah. The fulness of the Godhead now dwelt in Messieh, whereas before the Babylonian Captivity it dwelt behind the vail in the holy of holies. We (our bodies) are now the Temple of God, not a cursed and rejected old Temple site (1Cor. 3:16-17). That site was left eternally desolate (Mat. 23:38). The 70th Week was fulfilled three and one half years into the Church when the Gentiles were grafted in to bring its completion and the Messianic hope to its full reality.
The Law is FINISHED! It is OVER! The Law is fulfilled, completed, and finished, in Messieh. A new Covenant has been ushered in. The New Covenant IS NOT the old Covenant. The New Covenant is the EVERLASTING COVENANT, and salvation in this Testament is by the "BLOOD" of the everlasting Covenant (Heb 13:20). The Law IS NOT the everlasting Covenant! All that now remains is the Kingdom of God, the New Israel, the Church which is the Messianic Judaism of Jesus. Jew and Gentile MUST come into it or be lost forever. Until the day of the appearing of Jesus, all Jews and Gentiles must fulfill Acts 2:38 by faith or be eternally lost. There are no seven years reserved off of the Cross for Jews to be saved without Messieh by returning to animal sacrifices and building a new Talmudic-Cabalist Temple (Mark 16:16; 2Thes. 2:10).

Seventy Weeks Of Daniel

Jesus said the His Kingdom commeth no by observation. But you are looking for something physical for Him to rule. It's dominionism.

really so earthy kingdom? no jesus coming to the earth. no new heaven and earth?

jerusalem doesnt come down from what heaven

we die and stay in heaven? wow do tell.

my bible says that we inherent the earth and that lord reigns in jersusalem.

no the date from that prophecy goes the exact week of the triumphal entry(the day that the temple is command per cyrus to be built to the death of christ is 69 weeks.

if not oops we are ?

in the trib. and wrath.

wow. so all this growth and what not happened when satan is kicked out and also where are the two witness etc.