The truth about the 3 "Persons" of the Trinity

[D4Christ]

Jesus claimed to be the great “I AM†which is God’s name “foreverâ€... see Exodus 3:14-15:
"If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24),
and also ...
John 4:26, John 8:28, John 8:58, John 13:19, John 18:6, John 18:8.

In the original Greek, there is no “he†after “I AM†in any of the seven (7) verses above!

Jesus hints that He is the great “I AM†in these verses:
John 6:35, John 6:51, John 8:12, John 10:7, John 10:11, John 11:25, John 14:6, John 15:1.

Jesus never used the word “great.â€

Exodus 3

13 But Moses protested,“If I go to the people of Israel and tell them, ‘The God of your ancestors hassent me to you,’ they will ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what should I tell them?â€

14 Godreplied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. Saythis to the people of Israel: I AM has sent me to you.†15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people ofIsrael: Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you. Thisis my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.

Exodus 3 is specifically talking about the name of God the Father, YHWH. And although every time Christ uses the phrase “I am†he is not making reference to Exodus, there are specific times when he most definitely pointing to the Exodus scriptures. So the question is why would Christ, the Son, point to his Father’s name?

John 17

Now I am departing from theworld; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.

This is not meant to be a pointless argument with those who believe Christ was claiming to be one and the same asYHWH. We will probably never agree. But imho, Christ invoked part of the name of his Father because Christ operated in his Father’s name; he comes to us in his Father’s name and does his work in the Father’s name.

And, in some instances, Christ was also trying to drive home that he has existed from the beginning. So when he states, ‘before Abraham was, I AM,he was telling the people that he lived long before Abraham was born, which would seem impossible to those listening to him. In other words, Christ tells the people he is who he always said he was.

John 8

23 Jesus continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You belong to this world; I do not. 24 That is why I said that you will die in yoursins; for unless you believe that I AMwho I claim to be, you will die in your sins.â€

25 “Who are you?†they demanded.

Jesus replied, “The one I have always claimed to be. 26 I have much to say about youand much to condemn, but I won’t. For Isay only what I have heard from the one who sent me, and he is completely truthful.†27 But they still didn’t understand that he was talking about his Father.

28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up theSon of Man on the cross, then you will understand that I AM he. I do nothing on my own but say only what the Father taught me.29 And the one who sent me is with me—he has notdeserted me. For I always do what pleases im.†30Then many who heard him say these things believed in him.

 

[farouk]

Here is a key verse from Philippians 2: the Lord Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God'.

 

[D4Christ]

Here is a key verse from Philippians 2: the Lord Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God'.

Here's another:

The Son of God has given us understanding to know the True God.

1 John 5

20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life.

And for those who would confuse the issue. Who is the true God?

John 17

1 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

Now if Christ tells us the True God is His Father, why should I listen to those who claim Christ is wrong...the real True God is the Father, Son and the HS?

If all three compose the True God, why would Christ mention his Father only.

We can agree to disagree on the matter. The larger issue at hand is the assumption that those who do not agree with the masses are somehow false Christians.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[farouk]

D4:

No, I don't think we can agree on anything doctrinal, if the Lord Jesus is not truly God — if this is what you are saying.

Hebrews 1 clearly says: 'Unto the Son, he saith: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

John 1 says, 'the Word was with God and the Word was God'.

Romans 8 also speaks of 'the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus'. Indeed, the passage affirms, 'If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.

 

[D4Christ]

D4:

No, I don't think we can agree on anything doctrinal, if the Lord Jesus is not truly God — if this is what you are saying.

Hebrews 1 clearly says: 'Unto the Son, he saith: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

John 1 says, 'the Word was with God and the Word was God'.

Romans 8 also speaks of 'the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus'. Indeed, the passage affirms, 'If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.

If you read my post then you should understand that I did not contradict scripture by stating that Christ is not God. The Father says this to his son in Hebrews as you pointed out. And like I have pointed out before....if the Father is God, then how could he begot (which is a birthing reference) a Son who was anything less than God. Humans were created in his likeness, but The Son was the Only One begotten...big difference.

So, John 1 is a great proof of the scriptures I have cited.

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.

Christ never lied for he was and is the firstborn of creation who has existed from the beginning [of the world's creation]. When God commanded the heavens and earth to be formed he did so thru his Son, the architect by his side. The Son was:

• in existence from the beginning of creation
• he was with his Father, God
• he also in his divinity has the essence of God and is therefore God.

That being said, the Son, although he has the capacity to be God does not assume to be God. Instead the Son humbles himself to his Father and tells us explicity in scriptures that the Father is our True God. Scriptures also tell us that the Son is our mediator and High Priest. That's doctrinal or do you disagree with those verses?

John 8

49 “No,†Jesus said, “I have no demon in me. For I honor my Father—and you dishonor me. 50 And though I have no wish to glorify myself, God is going to glorify me. He is the true judge. 51I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!â€

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Elijah674]

If you read my post then you should understand that I did not contradict scripture by stating that Christ is not God. The Father says this to his son in Hebrews as you pointed out. And like I have pointed out before....if the Father is God, then how could he begot (which is a birthing reference) a Son who was anything less than God. Humans were created in his likeness, but The Son was the Only One begotten...big difference.

So, John 1 is a great proof of the scriptures I have cited.






Christ never lied for he was and is the firstborn of creation who has existed from the beginning [of the world's creation]. When God commanded the heavens and earth to be formed he did so thru his Son, the architect by his side. The Son was:

• in existence from the beginning of creation
• he was with his Father, God
• he also in his divinity has the essence of God and is therefore God.

That being said, the Son, although he has the capacity to be God does not assume to be God. Instead the Son humbles himself to his Father and tells us explicity in scriptures that the Father is our True God. Scriptures also tell us that the Son is our mediator and High Priest. That's doctrinal or do you disagree with those verses?

John 8


Blessings,
Dee

HI!
See if this helps any of us here??
God Jehovah & God Christ (**NOT SON YET!)
God HOLY SPIRIT or HOLY GHOST (God [IS A SPIRIT] but just one such, of the three)

Two have an Image from Eternity, and One does not.

OK: until Christ/God became 'BORN' the Second Adam, [ALL OF THIS WAS JUST THE FOR/KNOWN PLAN!](Pro. 8:30-31) Most use the verses that actually are to be seen SEPERATE & this is what is confuseing.

In other words, think of when the time/frame is talking about for Christ being [A SON?] Such as Psalms 1:7's 'PROPHECY DECREE' & then when Christ became the 'SON' of God as in Heb. 1:5 or even in Acts 13:33's documentation!

We over the years miss out on our correct understanding of what God's PLAN says & what we 'correctly see'. Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse tells us this fact of what only God can & DOES DO!;) These ones of only OSAS belief(?) could know that FAITH is [[ONLY WHAT GOD KNOWS, not them!]]

But the point is that the Son of God had a starting point in this Eternal PLAN. (But IS ETERNAL AS CHRIST/GOD!)

Rom. 4
'.... before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

--Elijah

 

[D4Christ]

OK: until Christ/God became 'BORN' the Second Adam, [ALL OF THIS WAS JUST THE FOR/KNOWN PLAN!](Pro. 8:30-31) Most use the verses that actually are to be seen SEPERATE & this is what is confuseing.

In other words, think of when the time/frame is talking about for Christ being [A SON?] Such as Psalms 1:7's 'PROPHECY DECREE' & then when Christ became the 'SON' of God as in Heb. 1:5 or even in Acts 13:33's documentation!

But the point is that the Son of God had a starting point in this Eternal PLAN. (But IS ETERNAL AS CHRIST/GOD!)

Rom. 4
'.... before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

--Elijah

Elijah, I am not going to lie....you are hard to understand. I am not saying you are not informed for you obviously have studied and have a definite pov. But somewhere between what you think and how it comes across in your writing at times has me lost, although I do try to understand you. But since u took the time to respond I will try to see if I am getting the gist of your main point.

Are you stating that Christ is God and has always been eternal (with no beginning) but his role as the Son did not begin until he became fully human?

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

Ok Elijah, I found this statement you posted in an earlier post that seems to claify what you are saying:

So the GodHead were, & always willbe the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at His conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. And it was thePLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet never was 'eternity' with outthe known plan. OK??

However, if the Son only became known as the Son at conception then why this?

Hebrews 1

1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.

10 He also says to the Son,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.

How could God create the universe thru his Son if the Son wasn't known as the Son until he was conceived and become human?

John 17 also states that God sent his Son into the world...is doesn't state God sent his Christ/God into the world. This also demonstrates the the Son was named as such before conception.

I understand and acknowledge the scriptrures showing the Son has a starting point also. But I will not separate the Son from Christ to make it work. There is a much simpler explanation.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Free]

Careful. So now I have to believe in 3 in 1 to be saved? I thank God for the HS and literacy every day.

I was simply showing that your statement "This does not make us one entity but does suggest that we as the church should be united with one mind and purpose, not divided as Satan would like us to be," is not an argument against the Trinity. I thought that was implied in your statement but it may not have been.

However, I do believe that one must believe Jesus is truly God in the same sense as the Father in order to be saved. As I have shown, belief in who Jesus is is central to salvation.

And you stated all that to say what? I believe in all of the above and then some...

Heb 1

I was clear when I stated: "There is much more to your statement than perhaps you realize" and "It must also be said that belief in Jesus's death and physical resurrection is necessary for salvation." I was responding to your statement: "According to scriptures the only thing required to be a member of the Church is a belief in God's Son and repentance from sin."

You say you "believe in all of the above," but what do you really mean by that? I stated that Romans 10:9 seems to suggest that believing that Jesus is God is necessary for salvation but you clearly do not believe that, so you cannot believe all of the above. Not to mention "believing in all of the above" would contradict the very statement I was addressing.

Also, I'm not sure what you are trying to show with Heb 1 but you should continue quoting more of it:

Heb 1:8-12, 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." (NKJV)

We see the Father calling the Son 'God.' We also have Scripture which is directly taken from Psalms 102, where it is applied to God, to YHWH, being applied directly to the Son, by the Father no less.

This is the problem with simply just quoting Scripture as though it proves our point. The portion I have quoted shows your position to be in error and the portion you have quoted does nothing to my position. This is why I have said time and time again in these forums that the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that the Scriptures reveal about God and Jesus.

I will agree that the Father is without begining or end.

And so is the Son. He already was in existence at the beginning, when creation began, so it is logically impossible that he himself could have been created.

Do with these verse what you have to....

Again, simply quoting Scripture as though it proves something is not the way such discussions should be conducted, although that is most often how they go. There is the overall narrative that needs to be considered (see Drew's posts) as well as all the other passages which appear to be in contradiction with those you've posted.

It is important to note that "begotten," monogenes in the Greek, does not necessarily mean the act of "begetting" or "creating," but can mean "unique" or "one and only." Even if there is some sense in which there is a "begetting," it must be taken into account with those passages which show the Jesus is uncreated. This is precisely why the Nicene Creed states "begotten and not made."

We cannot simply dismiss or reinterpret those passages which show Christ has existed for eternity past on the basis of one or two words or passages which at first appearance seem to show otherwise. All must be taken into account.

Even if Christ beginning is the same as his Father's where do "we" come off stating that they are co-equal, when Christ and scirptures state he is not. Any authority Christ does have he did not possess on his own, but rather he only possess what His Father gave him. If I am equal to you, then I shouldn't have to wait on you to give me anything.

Again, context. Did you read Phil 2:5-8? That is absolutely key to understanding the Son's relationship to the Father, both before and after his becoming human.

Let's be clear. Christ has divine authority...that can't be disputed. But where does he imply he is God? And why would he imply to be God and then blantantly state that the Father is his God.

His entire vocation speaks of it. His statements and his actions, when properly understood, show that he has taken on the role of the Father. Drew is much better at arguing this line of thought than I. Perhaps he will chime in again but perhaps not. In the number of years he has posted on this topic, I can only recall one person that has seriously engaged his ideas.

Here is just one verse where Jesus implies he is God:

Matt 19:16-17, 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." (NKJV)

The nature of God belongs to the Father and the Son. So they are both divine...there is no dispute. But Phil 2 also shows that the Son humbled himself before his Father, so that the Father then elevated his name above all others....not so that we would worship Christ as God but as Lord, to the glory of God the Father (vs 11). I guess that's why 1 Cor 8 states:

But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

Notice is doesn't say 'one God consisting of Father, Son and HS.'

No, and you won't find a single verse stating that. There need not be a single verse stating that in order for it to be true. However, looking at that verse, if we use it to say that only the Father is God, then logically it follows that the Father cannot be Lord. Yet that would clearly contradict numerous passages.

And even more than that, this is one of those passages which actually shows that Jesus is uncreated. The last part you highlighted is key: "through whom God made everything." If it is true that "everything" was made "through" Jesus, then there is only one logical conclusion: that Jesus himself cannot have been made. If Jesus was made, at any point in time, then that verse is stating a falsehood.

I would also argue that it is plausible that this is Paul extrapolating the Hebrew Shema:

Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (ESV)

Regardless, 1 Cor 8:6 shows that Jesus is uncreated, and if he is uncreated then he is God, just as the Father is God. One cannot have the nature of God and not be God. The only way around that is polytheism which the Bible strongly rejects.

It is a basic belief of some Christians. I don't care about proving or disproving Trinity. I will take 1 Cor 8 at face value thank, you. What I do think is unfair is trying to question the faith of those who don't believe in 3 in 1.

Then take 1 Cor8:6 at face value.

 

[John Zain]

Greetings Dee4Christ,

Jesus was the exact image of Father God
2 Corinthians 4:4, Hebrews 1:3, Philippians 2:6, Colossians 1:15,
Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9, John 14:9, 1 Timothy 3:16

Jesus claimed equality with Father God
John 5:18, John 5:23, John 10:30, John 10:33, John 10:36,
John 10:38, John 14:9, John 17:22

Others claimed Jesus was God, or equal to Father God
John 1:1-2 (see Rev.19:13), John 14:11, John 20:28, Acts 7:59, Romans 9:5,
Philippians 2:10-11, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8-13, 1 John 5:20, Jude 4

Jesus was the Creator of all things
John 1:3, John 1:10, Acts 3:15, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 3:9,
Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:8-11

Jesus is the Sustainer of all things now
Colossian 1:17, Hebrews 1:3

Jesus had total power and authority over everything and everybody
Matthew 4:24, Matthew 8:16, Matthew 8:26, Luke 4:40-41, etc.

Jesus is the Giver of eternal life
John 4:14, John 5:21, John 6:27, John 10:27-28, John 11:25,
John 14:6, John 17:2, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 1:1-2, 1 John 5:20

 

[D4Christ]

You say you "believe in all of the above," but what do you really mean by that? I stated that Romans10:9 seems to suggest that believing that Jesus is God is necessaryfor salvation but you clearly do not believe that, so you cannot believeall of the above. Not to mention "believing in all of the above"would contradict the very statement I was addressing.

Where did you get that? I must confess Jesus is Lord and believe he is God's son in order to be saved. That’s what the scriptures say. (And Lord is not the same as LORD, which stands for YHWH)

Rom 10: 9 If you confess with
your mouth that Jesus is Lordand believe in your heart that God
raised him from the dead, youwill be saved.

John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave
his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in
him will not perish buthave eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into
the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. …18 “There
is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not
believe in him has already been judged for not believing
in God’s one and only Son.

Acts 2:21
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2:21&version=NLT

“But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be
saved.’

Acts 16: 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,
along with everyone in your household.â€

We see the Father calling the Son 'God.' We also have Scripture which is directly taken from Psalms 102, where itis applied to God, to YHWH, being applied directly to the Son, by the Father noless.

The Son laid the foundations of the earth as evidenced in many scriptures. There are also scriptures that states YHWH laid thefoundations of the earth. Does that make them the same person? There arescriptures that say Jesus raised himself from the dead. There are scriptures that state God raised Jesus from the dead. How about God is Savior vs. Jesus isSavior. Both can be found in scriptures. Which one is true?

All scenarios are true. Didn't God create the world....thru his Son? Then they both would have been involved in the creation. Did not God give Christ the power that allowed him to rise from the dead? Doesnot God save us thru his Son? Wouldn't that also make God our savior? Does thatmake them one and the same being? No. Does not the Son give credit for all he does to the Father? For the Son says he does only what his father tells him todo. And the Son takes credit for nothing he does, but instead does all toglorify His Father. So I don't find it confusing that descriptions of God as Savior, Creator and giver of life are also applied to God's Son, since the Son operates as Savior, Creator and giver of life in the power and name of his Father.

And so is the Son. He already was in existence at thebeginning, when creation began, so it is logically impossible that he himself could have been created.

John 1: 1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.

Col 1: 15 Christ is the visible image ofthe invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together. 18 Christ is also thehead of the church,
which is his body. He is the beginning,s upreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
Proverbs 8: 22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. 23I was appointedin ages past, atthe very first, before the earth began. 24 I was born beforetheoceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters. 25 Before the mountains were formed, before thehills,I was born— .

Rev 3
14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This isthe message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

Scriptures tell us: 1) the Son existed in thebeginning 2) the Son is the firstborn of creation 3) the Son is the beginningof God’s new creation. God’s creation started at Gen 1:1

If the Son is the first of creation…the beginning…the start…then it implies the Son had a beginning also. How can you be the first if you haveexisted from everlasting to everlasting?
We can believe that God is made up of three distinct co-equal beings but can’t understand how an all-powerful God could createanother being from his own substance and then use that being to create a world?

Again, context. Did you read Phil2:5-8? That is absolutely key to understanding the Son's relationship to theFather, both before and after becoming human.

Yes I read Phil 2. Did you happen to read verse 11?

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ isLord,
to the gloryof God the
Father.

If Christ is really the Father, why are we declaring him Lord to the glory of God the Father? This verse could have simply read,‘every tongue confess that Jesus is God to the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the HS. Phil demonstrates that even having the ‘form of God’ Christhumbled and continues to humble himself before the Father….which is why Christconsistently declares that the Father is God and God alone.

Here is just one verse where Jesus implies he is God:Matt 19:16-17

Why imply who God is, when Christ clearly tells us whothe True God is. And again I quote…

1 John 5: 20And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And nowwe live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the onlytrue God, and he is eternal life.
John17:1 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Sonso he can give glory back toyou. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life toeach one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

Christ doesn’t mention himself or the HS. Why haven’t dyed in the wool Trinitarians addressed why the Son of God would tell us we need to know the true God andt hen name his Father?

***crickets***

If it is true that"everything" was made "through" Jesus, then there is onlyone logical conclusion: that Jesus himself cannot have been made. If Jesus was made, at any point in time,then that verse is stating a falsehood.

Everything that was made was created by GOD thru the Son. But the “everything†that is being spoken about is the creation of the world. And unless you have got a book that precedes Genesis, the creation story begins with “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.†All that was created at that point forward was createdby God thru His Son.
John 1:3 is only referring to creation and cannot beapplied to whatever was going on prior to Gen. Since the Son existed before anything was created, this places him before creation (Genesis) and “everything that wasmade.†Thus John 1:3 couldn’t be made false by anything that took place prior to Gen 1. Gen 1 started our timeline, not the Father’s. These are two different time periods.
So riddle me this?

If the Son existed from everlasting like the Father and he has always existed, why mention his existence was before creation….wouldn’t that be obvious.

Why is only the Son called the firstborn of creation? Why call him first in everything? We know he was the first to rise from the dead….so what else was he first at? Maybe firstborn of creation means the firstborn of creation. Why would the Father create thru his Son? If both are equalthe Father was capable of doing it himself, yet the Son from the beginning defers to the Father and obeys him.
Perhaps these are some of the questions that need tobe addressed without chalking it all up to mystery.

Blessings,

Dee

 

[D4Christ]

Greetings Dee4Christ,

Jesus was the exact image of Father God
2 Corinthians 4:4, Hebrews 1:3, Philippians 2:6, Colossians 1:15,
Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9, John 14:9, 1 Timothy 3:16

Jesus claimed equality with Father God
John 5:18, John 5:23, John 10:30, John 10:33, John 10:36,
John 10:38, John 14:9, John 17:22

Others claimed Jesus was God, or equal to Father God
John 1:1-2 (see Rev.19:13), John 14:11, John 20:28, Acts 7:59, Romans 9:5,
Philippians 2:10-11, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8-13, 1 John 5:20, Jude 4

Jesus was the Creator of all things
John 1:3, John 1:10, Acts 3:15, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 3:9,
Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:8-11

Jesus is the Sustainer of all things now
Colossian 1:17, Hebrews 1:3

Jesus had total power and authority over everything and everybody
Matthew 4:24, Matthew 8:16, Matthew 8:26, Luke 4:40-41, etc.

Jesus is the Giver of eternal life
John 4:14, John 5:21, John 6:27, John 10:27-28, John 11:25,
John 14:6, John 17:2, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 1:1-2, 1 John 5:20

Hi Zain,

Perhaps this would be easier to tackle if we handled one verse or even one of the above topics at a time. I don't just want to list a bunch of scriptures in response to your list.

For example, if you are going to tackle the fact that Jesus has all authority, then you would be right. But what you forgot to list was that the fact that I have been consistenly making all along. Christ will turn all of that authority back over to his Father at the appointed time. When its all said and done the Father has all authority.

1 Cor 15

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.†(Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,†that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

 

[Danus]

Dee4Christ, I still say you are a trinitarian You've not convinced me your not. , and I'm going with it.

 

[Free]

Where did you get that? I must confess Jesus is Lord and believe he is God's son in order to be saved. That’s what the scriptures say. (And Lord is not the same as LORD, which stands for YHWH)

I got that from my post #35:

"Clearly there is more to it than merely "believing in Jesus" or believing that he is the Son of God. One must believe in who he is. And we cannot forget Rom 10:9-13:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (NKJV)

Not only is there a confession that 'Jesus is Lord,' Paul applies Joel 2:32 to that confession, where 'Lord' is 'LORD' in the OT, that is YHWH. It must also be said that belief in Jesus's death and physical resurrection is necessary for salvation."

And 'Lord' in the NT is used in every OT quote where "LORD," or YHWY, is used. That was my whole point. And I still need to point out that there is more to simply confessing "Jesus is Lord and believe he is God's son in order to be saved."

The Son laid the foundations of the earth as evidenced in many scriptures. There are also scriptures that states YHWH laid the foundations of the earth. Does that make them the same person? There ares criptures that say Jesus raised himself from the dead. There are scriptures that state God raised Jesus from the dead. How about God is Savior vs. Jesus is Savior. Both can be found in scriptures. Which one is true?

All scenarios are true. Didn't God create the world....thru his Son? Then they both would have been involved in the creation. Did not God give Christ the power that allowed him to rise from the dead? Does not God save us thru his Son? Wouldn't that also make God our savior? Does that make them one and the same being? No. Does not the Son give credit for all he does to the Father? For the Son says he does only what his father tells him to do. And the Son takes credit for nothing he does, but instead does all to glorify His Father. So I don't find it confusing that descriptions of God as Savior, Creator and giver of life are also applied to God's Son, since the Son operates as Savior, Creator and giver of life in the power and name of his Father.

I am mostly in agreement with you but you have taken one important point too far. Jesus was involved in creation but not just of the Earth, of everything. That precludes him from ever having been created.

And here begin the problems with proof-texting:

John 1: 1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.

I can't help but notice you skipped verse 3: Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (NKJV)

This clearly precludes Jesus from having ever been created. Not to mention verses 1 and 2 show that when the beginning began, Jesus was already in existence, thereby precluding him from having been created, in perfect agreement with verse 3.

Col 1: 15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together. 18 Christ is also thehead of the church,
which is his body. He is the beginning,s upreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.

Here verse 16, which is more or less conspicuously absent, like John 1:3, in in perfect agreement with what is shown in John 1:1-3: "Jesus existed before anything was created." Actually, it may be your translation that is in error. As a side note, as per the TOS regarding copyrighted material, you must post your version unless it's the KJV.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (NKJV)

If Jesus was created, then this verse is stating a falsehood. The only logical conclusion is that Jesus could not have been created.

Proverbs 8: 22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. 23I was appointedin ages past, atthe very first, before the earth began. 24 I was born beforetheoceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters. 25 Before the mountains were formed, before thehills,I was born— .

Proverbs 8 is not speaking of Jesus. It is simply the personification of Wisdom.

Rev 3
14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This isthe message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

This simply cannot be saying that Jesus was created, the first of God's creation, as that would contradict numerous passages, including those already discussed. It is saying that Jesus is the "author [or beginner] of God's new creation." And, yes, that is a perfectly acceptable translation of that verse.

Scriptures tell us: 1) the Son existed in the beginning 2) the Son is the firstborn of creation 3) the Son is the beginning of God’s new creation. God’s creation started at Gen 1:1

The Scriptures actually tell us, as I have shown: 1) the Son was already in existence when the beginning began, 2) the Son is the firstborn, which is to say preeminent, or supreme (as your translation states), over creation, 3) if we accept your translation of "new creation," where most just say "creation," then "God's new creation," would not at all be a reference to Gen 1:1 but rather the resurrection of Jesus. Believers are even called "new creations" in 2Cor 5:17 and Gal 6:15. However, it is simply saying that the Son is the author or beginner of God's creation.

Yes I read Phil 2. Did you happen to read verse 11?

What about it? It does nothing to my position. But this highlights a continuing problem: You are constantly removing verses from their context. Verse 11 must be understood within the context of Phil 2, and then within the entirety of the NT and all of Scripture itself.

Verses 5-8 are showing that Jesus was God but then humbled himself to the Father for the purpose of dying on the cross for our salvation. Verse 11 cannot, and does not, change that.

If Christ is really the Father, why are we declaring him Lord to the glory of God the Father? This verse could have simply read,‘every tongue confess that Jesus is God to the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the HS. Phil demonstrates that even having the ‘form of God’ Christ humbled and continues to humble himself before the Father….which is why Christ consistently declares that the Father is God and God alone.

I think we've been through this before. No one is saying that "Christ is really the Father." That is notwhat the doctrine of the Trinity states. That is the error of modalism and Oneness theology.

Why imply who God is, when Christ clearly tells us who the True God is. And again I quote…



Christ doesn’t mention himself or the HS. Why haven’t dyed in the wool Trinitarians addressed why the Son of God would tell us we need to know the true God andt hen name his Father?

Again, you are wanting to divorce these passages completely from the rest of Scripture in order to support your point. This is a significant problem. All the passages already discussed, which clearly show that the Son could not have been created, stand in direct opposition to such statements.

We must reconcile all that is given in Scripture and not ignore those we disagree with. The passages that state that the Father is the true God must be reconciled with those that clearly state, whether implicitly or explicitly, that Jesus is just as much God as the Father is God, while remaining faithful to monotheism.

This is the difficulty with the nature of God as revealed in Scripture. We simply cannot allow certain passages to arbitrarily overrule others.

Everything that was made was created by GOD thru the Son. But the “everything” that is being spoken about is the creation of the world.

No. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to understand John 1:1-3, 1Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16 as referring only to the creation of the world. The contexts are such that they are clearly speaking of the creation of absolutely everything that was ever created.

You have no biblical basis for such a claim. To do so is eisegesis, not exegesis.

And unless you have got a book that precedes Genesis, the creation story begins with “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” All that was created at that point forward was created by God thru His Son.

I have no disagreement there. Genesis 1:1 is a simple statement of the beginning of all creation. The rest of the chapter and chapter 2 unpack what is meant by "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

John 1:3 is only referring to creation and cannot be applied to whatever was going on prior to Gen. Since the Son existed before anything was created, this places him before creation (Genesis) and “everything that was made.” Thus John 1:3 couldn’t be made false by anything that took place prior to Gen 1. Gen 1 started our timeline, not the Father’s. These are two different time periods.

Now you are confusing me. The was no time before Genesis 1:1. The beginning of Creation is the beginning of Time. Anything that was in existence prior to Gen 1:1 had existed for eternity past, or however one needs to word that without using "eternity" which is itself a concept of time.

So riddle me this?

If the Son existed from everlasting like the Father and he has always existed, why mention his existence was before creation….wouldn’t that be obvious.

Even with mentioning it people don't think it's obvious, so how would not mentioning it help things? As a man, the God-man, of course it would be necessary to state where Jesus came from, to state just exactly who he is.

Why is only the Son called the firstborn of creation? Why call him first in everything? We know he was the first to rise from the dead….so what else was he first at? Maybe firstborn of creation means the firstborn of creation.

As I have stated already, "firstborn of creation" simply means that Jesus is preeminent over creation. It is speaking of his position, not necessarily his nature.

Why would the Father create thru his Son? If both are equal the Father was capable of doing it himself, yet the Son from the beginning defers to the Father and obeys him.
Perhaps these are some of the questions that need to be addressed without chalking it all up to mystery.

All three were involved in Creation. They are all co-equal so why would they not all be involved in the creating process?

 

[D4Christ]

Dee4Christ, I still say you are a trinitarian You've not convinced me your not. , and I'm going with it.

That's almost like admitting that some of what I say makes sense to you....gee thanks! ;)

Dee

 

[John Zain]

Hi Zain,
Perhaps this would be easier to tackle if we handled one verse or even one of the above topics at a time. I don't just want to list a bunch of scriptures in response to your list.

It's nice to be called Zain ... it's a real friendly personable greeting.
And it's always more welcome than Zainy John.

Perhaps this would be easier to tackle if you responded to 2 questions re: the gospels ...
1) What do you say to: Jesus claimed that He was equal to Father God?
2) What do you say to: others claimed that He was equal to Father God?

You could always say that you just do not believe Scripture.
But, that's not the route which non-believers are willing to take, is it?

 

[D4Christ]

And 'Lord' in the NT is used in every OT quote where "LORD," or YHWY, is used. That was my whole point. And I still need to point out that there is more to simply confessing "Jesus is Lord and believe he is God's son in order to be saved."

If there was no difference between LORD and Lord, then why would Psalm 110:1 use both clearly demonstrating that "LORD" was referring to YHWH and "Lord" was referring to his Son.

Also, I have pointed out the verses from the Bible that tell us what to do in order to be saved. I am not sure why you feel it necessary to add more to that equation. Clearly there are other things we must know after we get saved because we should continue to grow and mature in the Christ.

I am mostly in agreement with you but you have taken one important point too far. Jesus was involved in creation but not just of the Earth, of everything. That precludes him from ever having been created.

I can't help but notice you skipped verse 3: Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (NKJV)

This clearly precludes Jesus from having ever been created. Not to mention verses 1 and 2 show that when the beginning began, Jesus was already in existence, thereby precluding him from having been created, in perfect agreement with verse 3.

I think I have stated quite clearly that the Son made everything in "creation" from the sky to the people, to the kingdoms, etc. I am not skipping any verses but like I said before I cannot quote the entire bible. I think it is obvious that "creation" as told in Gen 1 was not an everlasting on going event. It had a starting point. And when it started the Son created "all that was made" during creation.

My point is simply this....just because the Son was used by the Father to create everything that was made during the "creation" does not mean that he had anything to do with anything that may have occured prior to the starting point of creation. Therefore it is illogical to suggest that the Son could not have be created(born, birthed, or made) prior to an event in which he (the Son) is reported to have been the creator. Verse 3 is pointing to the "creation" of the world and everything that was made within it. It could not possibly be in reference to anything that happened prior to that event and it would belittle God to think that he wasn't capable of doing anything prior to ordering the creation of "our" known world.

Here verse 16, which is more or less conspicuously absent, like John 1:3, in in perfect agreement with what is shown in John 1:1-3: "Jesus existed before anything was created." Actually, it may be your translation that is in error. As a side note, as per the TOS regarding copyrighted material, you must post your version unless it's the KJV.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (NKJV)

If Jesus was created, then this verse is stating a falsehood. The only logical conclusion is that Jesus could not have been created.

My translation is just fine thank you and per the TOS, I have as part of my signature, that all verses I use are NLT.

Col 1:16 even further proves my point by showing that "all things" were the things created during creation. Logically if Christ existed before the creation started then it would be an error to apply the "all things" logic to a time period that preceeded the event for which he is given credit. Christ pre-dates creation. Col 1:16 is a reference to creation and the creation only.

Proverbs 8 is not speaking of Jesus. It is simply the personification of Wisdom.

We only find life in the Son of God. Do you not think it strange that Wisdom states in verses 34 an 35;

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the Lord.
36 But those who miss me injure themselves.
All who hate me love death.”

And this is verified in 1 John 5;

11 And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life.

If Wisdom is not referring to the Son of God then this scritpure is pointing to another and different way to "life" thereby contradictiong NT scritpures.

However, God is not a God of confusion. He made sure that the NT readers would understand that the way to life spoken about by Wisdom in Proverbs was directly linked to God's Son in 1 Cor 1;

24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
30 God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself.

I don't know how much clearer this could be.

I think we've been through this before. No one is saying that "Christ is really the Father." That is not what the doctrine of the Trinity states. That is the error of modalism and Oneness theology.

The Trinity does say The Son is co-equal to the Father, a fact that he consistently denies in scriptures but you still believe it. Saying the Son is not co-equal does not imho deny his divinity. He possess the essence and character of God which makes him God. But the Son is in the role of Mediator and High Priest, foresaking any claim to be God. This is why he calls the Father his God and never says that of himself. 'One God, and one Mediater, who is Christ.....'

Again, you are wanting to divorce these passages completely from the rest of Scripture in order to support your point. This is a significant problem.

All the passages already discussed, which clearly show that the Son could not have been created, stand in direct opposition to such statements.

This is the difficulty with the nature of God as revealed in Scripture. We simply cannot allow certain passages to arbitrarily overrule others.

I am not divorcing anything. The Son of God straight up tells us the True God is his Father. Why argue that point? How could you possibly say I'm arbitrary when I am quoting what the scritpures say. And they don't just say it here. The Son tells us in Revelation that God is his God and our God. And we are told in Corinthians that the Son is not greater than God who gave him his authority. And the Son will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father.

In fact God the Father is not an arbritrary statement for it is mentioned in scritpures all the time. Were those who were inspired by God to write down his Word confused? If you can find me one verse that says God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit, then maybe I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

1 Cor 8:

6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

You know what's really scary. Scriptures state rather clearly that there is one God, one True God, the Father. The Son also states this as well as the apostles in the greetings in the beginning of scriptures. Yet most Christians state that there is One God made up of the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

How is that for a contradiction?

No. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to understand John 1:1-3, 1Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16 as referring only to the creation of the world. The contexts are such that they are clearly speaking of the creation of absolutely everything that was ever created.

I'm confused....the scriptures clearly state that the creation the Son was involved in included the heavens and earth and everthing in them. And to my knowledge the only creation story we have, Gen 1, clearly starts with the creation of our world and everything ever created in our world. Are you claiming to know what was going on prior to Gen? How could you possible know what the Son or his Father were doing prior to beginning the creation of our world. It's not like the Son did not exist...we know he existed before he got started creating?

Now, as to the matter of whether he came into being or always was....Prov 8 clears that up....but of course that is quickly dismissed by those who tie their salvation to a belief in the trinity.

Now you are confusing me. The was no time before Genesis 1:1. The beginning of Creation is the beginning of Time. Anything that was in existence prior to Gen 1:1 had existed for eternity past, or however one needs to word that without using "eternity" which is itself a concept of time.

Wow...that reminds me of those who used to believe that the earth was the center of the universe and everything revolved around it. There was no time before Genesis....how would you know, where you there? It may not be time like we experience but to suggest that the Father and Son had nothing else going on is limiting for such a powerful God and his Son.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

It's nice to be called Zain ... it's a real friendly personable greeting.
And it's always more welcome than Zainy John.

Perhaps this would be easier to tackle if you responded to 2 questions re: the gospels ...
1) What do you say to: Jesus claimed that He was equal to Father God?
2) What do you say to: others claimed that He was equal to Father God?

1) I would say that he did not claim equality and the scritpures that people use to prove he did are really weak arguements.

2) Other who claimed that Christ was claiming to be God said so becasue he claimed God was his Father. How could "God" be your father and you not be God too? Christ was in essence telling them he was more than human...he was divine and it ticked people off.

The Son of God is equal to the Father in his nature...they both are God but he is not equal to the Father in authority....and there are too many scritures to count that show Christ, the Son placing himself under God the Father's authority.

You could always say that you just do not believe Scripture.
But, that's not the route which non-believers are willing to take, is it?

I wouldn't know which route non believers take....I believe in all of the scriptures but not man-made creeds like the Trinity.

Blessings.
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

Hi Zain,

I have been trying to get a decent answer to this question. Maybe you would like to tackle it?

1) Why does the Son of God tell us that we have to know who the True God is and then names only his Father as the one True God.

1 John 5:20
John 17:1-3

Blessings,
Dee

 

[John Zain]

Why does the Son of God tell us that we have to know who the True God is
and then names only his Father as the one True God.
1 John 5:20
John 17:1-3

We have several explanations:

1) Jesus, who was at least partially human, preferred to portray humility.

2) Jesus, being partially human, did not consider Himself to be "fully God" (my opinion).

3) Jesus always desired to place Father God before/above Himself.

4) Jesus always was wanting to demonstrate to us how we should live our lives,
i.e. praying to Father God, trusting the Holy Spirit to perform miracles, being humble, etc.

5) Last, but not least, is something that many do not seem to understand:
God has chosen to reveal some of His precious spiritual truths only through the Holy Spirit,
and not through black words printed on white paper.
Note: Jesus' explanation for His usual use of parables (Matthew 13:10++).
Re: believers ... perhaps, different revelations at different times for different reasons.
.