The Two-Minute Salvation

[KevinK]

Right now it actually looks like salvation occurs in 2 steps. Initial salvation is based on your relationship with Jesus Christ, as only He can wash you free from your sins. (You must also believe in the eternal God, obviously, and show forgiveness to those who have sinned against you.)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.​

But there's a second, final judgment as well, from the white throne. Here the dead are judged according to their works.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15.​

So yes, I don't think it so unreasonable that a well-meaning person be genuinely confused.

Thank you all for your input.

 

[OzSpen]

Right now it actually looks like salvation occurs in 2 steps. Initial salvation is based on your relationship with Jesus Christ, as only He can wash you free from your sins. (You must also believe in the eternal God, obviously, and show forgiveness to those who have sinned against you.)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.​

But there's a second, final judgment as well, from the white throne. Here the dead are judged according to their works.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15.​

So yes, I don't think it so unreasonable that a well-meaning person be genuinely confused.

Thank you all for your input.

Kevin,

Don't forget 1 Cor 3:9-15 (ESV). What judgment will that be? It has been commonly called the Judgment Seat of Christ. See, Works: Purified or Fried (1 Cor 3:9-15).

Oz

 

[KevinK]

Kevin,

Don't forget 1 Cor 3:9-15 (ESV). What judgment will that be? It has been commonly called the Judgment Seat of Christ. See, Works: Purified or Fried (1 Cor 3:9-15).

Oz

I'm not getting the relevance of the scripture, and the article's on the long side. Are you able to summarize a bit? Are you alluding to two different types of judgment?

 

[Jim Parker]

I am a little unclear about this whole belief vs. works savation. Depending on who you talk to, salvation is based on either one or the other and everything in between.

Salvation would be impossible except for God's grace and love.
God demonstrated that love when Jesus, God in the flesh, gave himself to die for the sins of mankind and then rose again destroying the power of death.
We have a part in our salvation. (Not everyone agrees with that statement but the Bible is pretty clear on it.)
We have to believe and have faith in God to save us.
We have to act on that faith to make it real faith. (Without acting on our faith, it is mere agreement with God. God doesn't need our agreement.)
I don't know of any religion that claims to be Christian and teaches that people are saved by doing good works. (Though ignorant people constantly accuse the Catholics of teaching that.)
The Bible specifically says that no one will be given eternal life without good works. (Assuming they were able to do any. The thief on the cross could not.)
I already posted the scriptures in which Jesus and Paul state that works are necessary to be given (be given, not earn) eternal life.

iakov the fool

 

[KevinK]

So back to my 2-minute salvation, you have to believe and do good works, but in the absence of time the "good works" part is waived (as it was for the good thief)?

 

[Sinthesis]

You have to have the type of belief that leads you to do good works. If your belief doesn't lead you to do good works, then who/what exactly do you believe?

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

So back to my 2-minute salvation, you have to believe and do good works, but in the absence of time the "good works" part is waived (as it was for the good thief)?

Hi Kevin. The "salvation by works" teaching is relatively new and it doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible. It is inferred through interpretation. One of the most often cited verses to support it comes from Ephesians 2:8. People rarely quote verses 9 and 10 which go on to say that we are created to good works. In essence, the passage is a warning against becoming proud of our works.

If God is good, then it makes sense that he'd want us to be good, too. I think he's left plenty of room to account for our problems; he's willing to forgive so long as we get back up again and keep trying. On the other hand, I don't think he'd want to spend eternity with people who are not interested in applying the values of his kingdom.

So, perhaps a reasonable compromise between the two would be to say that salvation can only come through God; we can never earn it as though it is owed to us, but our participation in showing love to God and our neighbor is how we show God that we want salvation (i.e. to go with him in the next life).

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

The Bible specifically says that no one will be given eternal life without good works. (Assuming they were able to do any. The thief on the cross could not.)

I'm guessing that Jesus believed (or somehow knew through revelation) that if the thief did have the chance to come down from the cross and live out the rest of his life, he would be a changed man and serve the Lord through his actions.

 

[KevinK]

Hi Kevin. The "salvation by works" teaching is relatively new and it doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible. It is inferred through interpretation. One of the most often cited verses to support it comes from Ephesians 2:8. People rarely quote verses 9 and 10 which go on to say that we are created to good works. In essence, the passage is a warning against becoming proud of our works.

If God is good, then it makes sense that he'd want us to be good, too. I think he's left plenty of room to account for our problems; he's willing to forgive so long as we get back up again and keep trying. On the other hand, I don't think he'd want to spend eternity with people who are not interested in applying the values of his kingdom.

So, perhaps a reasonable compromise between the two would be to say that salvation can only come through God; we can never earn it as though it is owed to us, but our participation in showing love to God and our neighbor is how we show God that we want salvation (i.e. to go with him in the next life).

Ah, thank you, that gives me a little more perspective.

 

[KevinK]

You have to have the type of belief that leads you to do good works. If your belief doesn't lead you to do good works, then who/what exactly do you believe?

That's a nice point, too.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not getting the relevance of the scripture, and the article's on the long side. Are you able to summarize a bit? Are you alluding to two different types of judgment?

Kevin,

Matt 25 and 1 Cor 3 seem to be talking about the same judgment of works - for rewards - for the believer. Our sins have already been taken care of at the cross and we have been declared righteous (justified) by faith.

That's my understanding, but I could be wrong.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I'm guessing that Jesus believed (or somehow knew through revelation) that if the thief did have the chance to come down from the cross and live out the rest of his life, he would be a changed man and serve the Lord through his actions.

Endtime S,

That's no more than a guess. We have no evidence for such.

Oz

 

[KevinK]

Kevin,

Matt 25 and 1 Cor 3 seem to be talking about the same judgment of works - for rewards - for the believer. Our sins have already been taken care of at the cross and we have been declared righteous (justified) by faith.

That's my understanding, but I could be wrong.

Oz

To be honest I'm not seeing the relevance of those passages, but...are you saying that belief wins salvation, but works determines reward (once you are saved and in Heaven, there are different levels and types of reward and this is determined by the amount and kind of works you did on earth)? I've heard this theory before, and wonder if it works that way.

 

[OzSpen]

To be honest I'm not seeing the relevance of those passages, but...are you saying that belief wins salvation, but works determines reward (once you are saved and in Heaven, there are different levels and types of reward and this is determined by the amount and kind of works you did on earth)? I've heard this theory before, and wonder if it works that way.

You'll know the relevance of these passages on Judgment Day. James reinforces this biblical theology in verses such as James 2:14-17 (NIV):

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Then the very words of Jesus in Matt 25:31-46 (NIV) confirm this message. If you don't have works that demonstrate your faith, then your faith is not the real thing. James hits this teaching on the head: 'As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead' (James 2:26 NIV).

This is biblical Christianity: If your faith is not demonstrated by good works, your faith is useless, worthless, dead. It is not the real thing.

What kinds of works are needed to demonstrate that your faith in Jesus is the real thing?

• James says: helping brothers and sisters who are poorly clothed and in need of daily food (James 2:15 NIV);
• Jesus said: feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, welcoming strangers, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, visiting those in prison (Matt 25:35-46 NIV).

Surely that's not difficult. Seems to be that you are the one being difficult, labelling what I've written as 'this theory' and 'I wonder if it works that way'.

What is WRONG with the theology I've just written? What is WRONG with the outworking of good works that both Jesus and James promoted? Did Jesus and James get it wrong?

Oz

 

[KevinK]

Oz, dude, you're interpreting my questions and observations as confrontational and critical. I am sincerely interested in your thoughts, and anyone else who cares to post them. Is there a different way I should ask questions, or should I simply stop asking them? I never said there was anything wrong with what you've posted, I simply want to understand it in more detail. Is this a problem?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, dude, you're interpreting my questions and observations as confrontational and critical. I am sincerely interested in your thoughts, and anyone else who cares to post them. Is there a different way I should ask questions, or should I simply stop asking them? I never said there was anything wrong with what you've posted, I simply want to understand it in more detail. Is this a problem?

It's not a problem with me and I'm sorry if you interpreted my response as overboard. However, what do you expect me to do when you make this comment about the biblical material that deals with the necessity of good works to demonstrate genuine faith? You wrote in #53: 'I've heard this theory before, and wonder if it works that way'. What is that if it is not waivering over the clear biblical material?

Are you saying that God does not require you to do good works AFTER salvation to demonstrate that your faith is genuine? Will you not be judged on your works according to Matt 25:31-46 and James 2;14-26? Have I been misleading you with this information?

Oz

 

[KevinK]

You wrote in #53: 'I've heard this theory before, and wonder if it works that way'. What is that if it is not waivering over the clear biblical material?
Oz

That comment was actually intended to be more "agreeing" than it probably came out. In fact, I do think it works that way. Please forgive my bad writing skills.

I think I see where the problem lies. I am not a scriptural fundamentalist. I don't utilize a literal interpretation of the Bible. I do think the Bible holds the ultimate truth, just not in literal form. I made this clear early on as a new member, and asked several times if this was a problem. The stated purpose of this forum is to provide support for growing Christians, and that is what I'm trying to do. So when I ask questions about a scriptural passage, it is not in the spirit of challenge, but an attempt at further understanding.

 

[KevinK]

I don't know that some day I won't be a fundamentalist, for lack of a better term. I don't know where the journey will end. Wouldn't be that great a journey if I did.

 

[OzSpen]

That comment was actually intended to be more "agreeing" than it probably came out. In fact, I do think it works that way. Please forgive my bad writing skills.

I think I see where the problem lies. I am not a scriptural fundamentalist. I don't utilize a literal interpretation of the Bible. I do think the Bible holds the ultimate truth, just not in literal form. I made this clear early on as a new member, and asked several times if this was a problem. The stated purpose of this forum is to provide support for growing Christians, and that is what I'm trying to do. So when I ask questions about a scriptural passage, it is not in the spirit of challenge, but an attempt at further understanding.

So are you labelling me as 'a scriptural fundamentalist'?

You say you 'don't utilize a literal interpretation of the Bible'. Would you please define for my understanding what you mean by 'literal interpretation'?

Oz

 

[KevinK]

So are you labelling me as 'a scriptural fundamentalist'?
Oz

No, I'm labelling you as someone who knows more about the Bible than I do.