The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[tdidymas]

Works by faith comes from faith. True faith acts.
So then we are not justified by works of the law. We are justified by the actions that comes from our faith.
In other words. The fruits that comes from our faith .

So the common misunderstanding about this is that we must understand the difference between; acting by faith (acting on the Word by faith)
And the acts of man. (Acting on our own behalf, works done by our own strength and understanding)
Both are works. The difference is big tho...

Shalom

Since you didn't do a "reply with quote," it's difficult to see who you are responding to. But your statement "We are justified by the actions that comes from our faith" I differ with, because I don't see either Paul or James saying that. I see Paul clearly saying we are justified by faith alone, and James saying that the wrong kind of faith doesn't justify, but the kind of faith that does justify is that kind which bears fruit.

There is a big difference in saying that we are justified by faith that bears fruit, and saying we are justified by actions that come from faith. The first says we are justified by faith, whereas the 2nd says we are justified by actions. It may appear on the surface that James is agreeing with the 2nd statement, but since James is a "show-me" person (in this epistle), he is really saying that our works prove what kind of faith we have, whether it be the kind leading to salvation or not.

If you weren't responding to me, I apologize.
TD

 

[JLB]

But just because it says that Noah "prepared an ark for the saving of his household," it doesn't mean that Noah saved his own household.

Yes, it most certainly means what it so plainly says...

"Noah prepared an ark for the saving of his household,"

The saving of Noah’s household came by him obeying what God told him to do, which is what the phrase “by faith” means.


Noah’s household was saved by grace (from God) through faith, Noah’s obedience; the obedience of faith.


This action of obedience is called the righteousness according to faith.




JLB

 

[Who Me]

The bibles verdict on Noah is that he was a preacher/herald of rightousness and a man of faith.

He clear proclaimed the message of salvation. No one could miss a 400 foot long boat/barge/ark he was building and they would want to know why.
Jesus's comment is telling people then did not believe in God's judgement or that they had to change, just as in Jesus's day and in our day people do not believe in God's judgement, that they deserve it or should change there behaviour.

Noah the Evangelist

Noah was the first evangelist mentioned in the Bible.

answersingenesis.org

 

[JLB]

Do you agree that some people have faith when God speaks and some don't?

No. A person receives faith when God speaks to them.

Its up to them to act in obedience or not.

Then once a person is born again, they must continue to obey the Lord if they want to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


My question to you is:


Since you believe a person is saved first, then they believe, what value is evangelism in reformed theology?




JLB

 

[Link1983]

Since you didn't do a "reply with quote," it's difficult to see who you are responding to. But your statement "We are justified by the actions that comes from our faith" I differ with, because I don't see either Paul or James saying that. I see Paul clearly saying we are justified by faith alone, and James saying that the wrong kind of faith doesn't justify, but the kind of faith that does justify is that kind which bears fruit.

There is a big difference in saying that we are justified by faith that bears fruit, and saying we are justified by actions that come from faith. The first says we are justified by faith, whereas the 2nd says we are justified by actions. It may appear on the surface that James is agreeing with the 2nd statement, but since James is a "show-me" person (in this epistle), he is really saying that our works prove what kind of faith we have, whether it be the kind leading to salvation or not.

If you weren't responding to me, I apologize.
TD

I left the post open because it seemed like you had a conversation with another. So i didn't want to bother, but then again i had to write something, because I find the subject interesting. ;)
I don't believe that Paul and James is saying different things.
To me they say the same thing in two different ways.

Don't apologize i was mostly responding to you, but scripture is for everyone good to hear anyway..
Like i wrote in my response: actions that is done out of faith is in my opinion the same as saying fruit that comes from faith.
Because i belive the fruits of faith is something that happens both spiritually and physically.
I did not mean to say that we get saved by actions..
I believe like you say that we are saved by our faith in Jesus and God.
The second someone accepted and believed in Him they get saved. Period!
Yet after we get saved we cant just do what we want. Our faith must bare fruits (though actions really)

Jesus said that belivers was to go out and spread the gospel to the whole world.

Matthew 28:18-20

 

[Link1983]

No. A person receives faith when God speaks to them.

Its up to them to act in obedience or not.

Then once a person is born again, they must continue to obey the Lord if they want to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


My question to you is:


Since you believe a person is saved first, then they believe, what value is evangelism in reformed theology?




JLB

I believe that a person is saved the same second that they receive and believe the gospel. Although a person who doesn't act on the commandment would be in danger of loosing his or her salvation.
John 13: 34-35

 

[Link1983]

No. A person receives faith when God speaks to them.

Its up to them to act in obedience or not.

Then once a person is born again, they must continue to obey the Lord if they want to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


My question to you is:


Since you believe a person is saved first, then they believe, what value is evangelism in reformed theology?




JLB

I see now that i mostly only repeated what you wrote. In a little bit different words.. :D

 

[tdidymas]

No. A person receives faith when God speaks to them.

Its up to them to act in obedience or not.

Then once a person is born again, they must continue to obey the Lord if they want to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


My question to you is:


Since you believe a person is saved first, then they believe, what value is evangelism in reformed theology?




JLB

Then do you agree that God speaks to some and not to others?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, it most certainly means what it so plainly says...

"Noah prepared an ark for the saving of his household,"

The saving of Noah’s household came by him obeying what God told him to do, which is what the phrase “by faith” means.


Noah’s household was saved by grace (from God) through faith, Noah’s obedience; the obedience of faith.


This action of obedience is called the righteousness according to faith.




JLB

I agree with your idea that true faith produces obedience. However, I do not agree that the statement "Noah prepared an ark for the saving of his household" means that Noah saved his family. What Noah did do was obey what God told him to do, that is, prepare an ark. When it says "for the saving of his household," that was the purpose of him building the ark, in which Noah believed that God would save them through that action. But it does not say that Noah saved them. You are making that assumption.
TD

 

[JLB]

Then do you agree that God speaks to some and not to others?
TD

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:12


These by the wayside did in fact hear the word of God.


However they didnt act on what they heard.

JLB

 

[JLB]

What Noah did do was obey what God told him to do, that is, prepare an ark

I agree. That's how the righteousness according to faith works.



JLB

 

[JLB]

"Noah prepared an ark for the saving of his household" means that Noah saved his family.

Maybe you could answer the question I asked?


Who saved Noah's houshold?


God
Noah
Noah and God working together?

 

[tdidymas]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:12


These by the wayside did in fact hear the word of God.


However they didnt act on what they heard.

JLB

Do you believe that those you are talking about actually did have the faith that justifies as in Rom. 5:1, and that they were indeed born again as in 1 Jn. 5:1 where it says "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Maybe you could answer the question I asked?


Who saved Noah's houshold?


God
Noah
Noah and God working together?

I thought you were answering the question you asked. I thought

God
Noah
Noah and God working together

was the answer to your own question, because there was not a question mark at the end of it. Did I assume too much then, that you are trying to teach synergism? Except by your typical answers, I detect that you are trying to teach a synergistic salvation much like the RCC does. Of that I do not agree, because I believe that salvation is of the Lord (not of God and man), and this is the foundation of how I read scripture. But I'm also fairly sure that you are aware of that.

But the scripture says "by faith Noah..." So then, what was his faith about, and how was it directed? Certainly it was not in himself and his own actions. If Noah had believed that his own actions would save his family, the writer of Hebrews would not have written "by faith Noah...." But Hebrews speaks of Noah having faith in God, as an equivalent experience that the writer of Hebrews had. Therefore, Noah believed that God saved him and his family, and this is what "by faith" means. So the answer to your question is "God."
TD

 

[tdidymas]

You must not have read my post.

I said -

The Lord spoke to Abraham, and he received faith.

Abraham was justified, declared to be righteous, when he obey what the Lord spoke to him.

The scripture that I’m referring to is Genesis 12:1-4, which s the first time Abraham was justified by obeying what the Lord spoke to Him. This is the obedience of faith, that Paul teaches.

There is no contradiction between James and Paul.

There is only misunderstanding what the scriptures teach.




JLB

Yet it says that Abraham was declared righteous in ch. 15, not ch. 12. Therefore you are assuming something that is out of line with what scripture actually says. And this is because it is likely that your definition and scope of the term "faith" is out of line with scripture. It is not any faith that justifies. Cain was not justified before God after God spoke to him, either, therefore he did not have faith, as Heb. 11 tells us. Therefore your hypothesis that if God speaks to someone they have faith is not correct.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

No. A person receives faith when God speaks to them.

Its up to them to act in obedience or not.

Then once a person is born again, they must continue to obey the Lord if they want to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


My question to you is:


Since you believe a person is saved first, then they believe, what value is evangelism in reformed theology?




JLB

Ans: because it is the means God uses to save the elect.

But your presumption about what I believe is not correct due to the fact that I believe that people are saved through the preaching of the gospel. It seems to me that you think if a person is elected to salvation from the foundation of the world, that they are saved at that time. No, I don't believe that.

And I think your definition of faith is not Biblical. Everywhere Biblical faith in God and in Christ is talked about, it is accompanied by obedience to God's will. Just because someone hears the gospel and "receives it with joy," it doesn't mean they have the faith that justifies. Nowhere does the scripture say or teach that faith in God is that shallow.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

There is no such thing as justified by faith alone.


JLB

I get the idea that you think faith that justifies is as shallow as the kind of faith that James is talking about in ch. 2 of his epistle. I get the idea that you think his term "faith" in Ja. 2:24 has exactly the same meaning as Paul's term "faith" in Rom. 5:1. Is this what you think?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I left the post open because it seemed like you had a conversation with another. So i didn't want to bother, but then again i had to write something, because I find the subject interesting. ;)
I don't believe that Paul and James is saying different things.
To me they say the same thing in two different ways.

Don't apologize i was mostly responding to you, but scripture is for everyone good to hear anyway..
Like i wrote in my response: actions that is done out of faith is in my opinion the same as saying fruit that comes from faith.
Because i belive the fruits of faith is something that happens both spiritually and physically.
I did not mean to say that we get saved by actions..
I believe like you say that we are saved by our faith in Jesus and God.
The second someone accepted and believed in Him they get saved. Period!
Yet after we get saved we cant just do what we want. Our faith must bare fruits (though actions really)

Jesus said that belivers was to go out and spread the gospel to the whole world.

Matthew 28:18-20

Paul and James are not teaching a different gospel, if that's what you mean.

But as far as them saying different things, can you please explain the contrast between these two verses:

Rom. 3:28 "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from the works of the law."
Jam. 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
TD

 

[Link1983]

Paul and James are not teaching a different gospel, if that's what you mean.

But as far as them saying different things, can you please explain the contrast between these two verses:

Rom. 3:28 "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from the works of the law."
Jam. 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
TD

Talking about two different kinds of works.
One work is of man ...
The other is the work of God...

There is a major difference between these works.. l
Bless td

 

[Link1983]

Paul and James are not teaching a different gospel, if that's what you mean.

But as far as them saying different things, can you please explain the contrast between these two verses:

Rom. 3:28 "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from the works of the law."
Jam. 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
TD

I have never found a single contradiction in the Bible...
Only stupid humans beeing stupid. As we are experts at.