The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[Link1983]

It requires the action of obedience, otherwise faith alone if it does not have obedience is dead, being incomplete.


Just as a body without the spirit is dead, being incomplete.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26



JLB

I like to combine the word faith with faithfulness.
I believe them to be the same. And having both gives me a broader understanding of what faith is.
It is being faithful to God.
Being faithful to God is doing His will on earth.
If a man believe God in his heart and say it with his mouth.
This is an act of faith. Faith then may increase..

 

[tdidymas]

Who are the RCC?
No. I agree with you. Because I believe that is the right interpretation of the Word.

Salvation comes from believing in Jesus. And then the action follows after.

The seed of faith is sown. Then it grows up and bares fruit.
Many scriptures confirming all this..

RCC = Roman Catholic Church.

 

[tdidymas]

It requires the action of obedience, otherwise faith alone if it does not have obedience is dead, being incomplete.


Just as a body without the spirit is dead, being incomplete.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26



JLB

Again, your usage of the word "faith" in this context is the same shallow usage of the word that James was writing against. In this, I think you are confused as to the definition of what justifying faith is. The way I read Jam. 2 is that he is telling gnostics that their faith is no good, that it's not real, that it doesn't go any deeper than cursory knowledge of Jesus, and that it's based solely on natural human reasoning and theory.

The example of Abraham that James used does not follow the "justification follows works" theory for these reasons:

1. Abraham was declared righteous by God 15 years before offering Isaac. Therefore, James is using the Isaac-offering event as a proof that Abraham was justified already. James is a "show me" person, revealed in 2:18. This is clear indication that "justified by works" means that works of love proves a person is justified, which is contrary to the "works causes justification" theory that the RCC teaches.

2. In order for someone to produce works of righteousness which God considers righteous enough to say that person is justified, that person has to already have the faith to trust God enough to perform that righteous act. Therefore, the idea that a person is justified by faith alone is correct, because that kind of faith that justifies is the same kind that results in righteous acts. When looked at from this angle, justification precedes works.

3. If Abraham and Rahab both had faith in the only true God (as is indicated in those stories), then their actions proved their faith. This is what James is conveying in saying "justified by works". He is talking about works proving justification, not about works causing it.

Therefore, this passage supports the idea of justification by faith alone.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Obedience is doing what God says to do.


Rebellion the sin of witchcraft, is doing other than what God tells you to do.


One action is how we are saved, the other action is how we are damned.



Hopefully that is clear enough.




JLB

It sounds to me like you believe that obedience to the law of God is how a person is saved. Do I read you correctly?
TD

 

[JLB]

, your usage of the word "faith" in this context is the same shallow usage of the word that James was writing against. In this, I think you are confused as to the definition of what justifying faith is.

The way James defines for us the principle of faith is scripture. Its not shallow. It is the same exact definition Paul describes in Romans.

Your mindset shows us that you value the teachings of Calvinism over scripture, which is why Paul teaches us that following the teachings of man, is divisive and is the way of the immature, and carnal.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4

When you seem to prefer what Paul says, and disregard what James says, because you think they are teaching something different, only proves your doctrine is not biblical.


I think the only thing thst appears to be shallow is your understanding.

Faith must have obedience in order to be alive and complete.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It sounds to me like you believe that obedience to the law of God is how a person is saved. Do I read you correctly?
TD

Obedience to Jesus Christ as Lord, is how we are saved.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[tdidymas]

The way James defines for us the principle of faith is scripture. Its not shallow. It is the same exact definition Paul describes in Romans.

I do not agree with you on this matter, as I explained previously. James' usage of the word in 2:24 is far different than Paul's usage of the word in Rom. 3:28. I get that from the context of scripture.

Your mindset shows us that you value the teachings of Calvinism over scripture, which is why Paul teaches us that following the teachings of man, is divisive and is the way of the immature, and carnal.

Here our paths diverge, since IMO you are following your natural reasoning in your interpretation of these passages. My exegesis of these passages prove that my understanding of what both Paul and James are saying is correct. It appears to me that you are resorting to judging my position because you cannot refute what I wrote.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4

When you seem to prefer what Paul says, and disregard what James says, because you think they are teaching something different, only proves your doctrine is not biblical.

And here is your misunderstanding, since I did not in any way disregard what James said. I proved by scripture context and reasoning that James and Paul teach the same faith, but I think your prejudice blinds you.

I think the only thing thst appears to be shallow is your understanding.

Faith must have obedience in order to be alive and complete.


JLB

Since our paths diverge here, is there any reason to continue the conversation?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Obedience to Jesus Christ as Lord, is how we are saved.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB

"To all who..." is an identifier, not a mandate. This statement does not tell us the process by which we are saved, but rather it tells us who is saved. This is where I believe you are confused.
TD

 

[JLB]

I do not agree with you on this matter, as I explained previously. James' usage of the word in 2:24 is far different than Paul's usage of the word in Rom. 3:28. I get that from the context of scripture.

James and Paul, both teach the obedience of faith.

The entire book of Romans is contextually framed in this principle as it begins and ends with the phrase obedience of faith.


Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
Romans 1:5

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


Romans 2, obeying the truth. —


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

As I said before, Romans 10 shows us how we are saved by obeying the Gospel; obeying the truth.

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-17




JLB

 

[JLB]

"To all who..." is an identifier, not a mandate. This statement does not tell us the process by which we are saved, but rather it tells us who is saved. This is where I believe you are confused.
TD

Those who obey Him, receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



Very plain and simple.




JLB

 

[tdidymas]

James and Paul, both teach the obedience of faith.

The entire book of Romans is contextually framed in this principle as it begins and ends with the phrase obedience of faith.


Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
Romans 1:5

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


Romans 2, obeying the truth. —


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

As I said before, Romans 10 shows us how we are saved by obeying the Gospel; obeying the truth.

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-17




JLB

We do agree that both James and Paul TEACH obedience of faith as a concept to follow. So then, you are misunderstanding me.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Those who obey Him, receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



Very plain and simple.




JLB

We both agree that whoever obeys Christ are saved. So then, you are misunderstanding me.
TD

 

[JLB]

We do agree that both James and Paul TEACH obedience of faith as a concept to follow.

We both agree that whoever obeys Christ are saved.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you believe that those you are talking about actually did have the faith that justifies as in Rom. 5:1, and that they were indeed born again as in 1 Jn. 5:1 where it says "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"?
TD

TD,

In the statement from 1 Jn 5:1, 'Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God', what is the tense in the Greek language of 'believes'?

What is its meaning?

Oz

 

[tdidymas]

TD,

In the statement from 1 Jn 5:1, 'Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God', what is the tense in the Greek language of 'believes'?

What is its meaning?

Oz

This does not answer the question, since I was asking the other poster, I think only he can answer it. It also does not address the issue that is up. But if you are trying to say this verse says that everyone who believes is born of God, then I agree.

So I have this question for you: if James says even the demons believe, yet we know they are not born of God, then how do you reconcile James' usage of the words "believe" and "faith" with John's and Paul's? Are they the same or not?

And this leads to the issue: does the seed which fell by the wayside belong to believers who are born of God?
TD

 

[OzSpen]

This does not answer the question, since I was asking the other poster, I think only he can answer it. It also does not address the issue that is up. But if you are trying to say this verse says that everyone who believes is born of God, then I agree.

So I have this question for you: if James says even the demons believe, yet we know they are not born of God, then how do you reconcile James' usage of the words "believe" and "faith" with John's and Paul's? Are they the same or not?

And this leads to the issue: does the seed which fell by the wayside belong to believers who are born of God?
TD

TD,

Please parse and give the meaning of the highlighted verb in Greek of 1 John 5:1 (TGNT), Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ χριστὸς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται, καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

Oz

 

[tdidymas]

TD,

Please parse and give the meaning of the highlighted verb in Greek of 1 John 5:1 (TGNT), Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ χριστὸς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται, καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

Oz

What's your point?
TD

 

[OzSpen]

What's your point?
TD

TD,

Please parse, translate and give the full meaning? Is this too difficult for you to do? Do you know Greek well enough to proficiently deal with the syntax of this verbal?

My request is a simple one, but you're ducking and weaving to avoid an answer to this basic question. Do you read and know how to parse Greek verbs?

Oz

 

[Hospes]

TD,

Please parse, translate and give the full meaning? Is this too difficult for you to do? Do you know Greek well enough to proficiently deal with the syntax of this verbal?

My request is a simple one, but you're ducking and weaving to avoid an answer to this basic question. Do you read and know how to parse Greek verbs?

Oz

Oz, is your point that if a person cannot parse Greek verbs, they have a lesser understanding of scripture? Or that the degree of one's ability to read Greek or Hebrew makes their understanding of the scripture more reliable? My own experience is that the level of education a person has attained has very little correlation to their ability to reason well. Also, I have known and read too many highly educated sophisticates to automatically give them credibility. (When I was young and naive, I used to be more enamored with and esteemed those with PhD's and such. Now, not so much.)

If you think the Greek of 1 John 5:1 enhances the plain language of the verse in English, then write about it. But for you to enter what in my world is a type of contest I can't name without getting blocked, you come off looking pretty full of yourself.

So, what's the point you're trying to make about 1 John 5:1?

 

[tdidymas]

TD,

Please parse, translate and give the full meaning? Is this too difficult for you to do? Do you know Greek well enough to proficiently deal with the syntax of this verbal?

My request is a simple one, but you're ducking and weaving to avoid an answer to this basic question. Do you read and know how to parse Greek verbs?

Oz

Oz, this looks like a rabbit trail to me. It looks to me like you're avoiding the issue at hand. So, by this question are you suggesting that the English translators aren't as good as you at translating the text? Or that we can't possibly understand the intent of the text in English? Like I asked, what's your point? Get straight to it. Otherwise, it appears as if you're just flexing your muscles. I'm here to see if you have a valid argument for your case, not to have some arm wrestle with you.
TD