Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology
- Thread starter TibiasDad
- Start date
Where do you get the definition of these words in this manner? From your experience and reasoning?
TD
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17
- faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
Faith, the divine substance of our hope, is received when we hear the Gospel, from the Lord directly or indirectly through those He sends.
Here is an example of both:
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
This is an example of the Lord preaching the Gospel to Abraham, directly. “By faith” means God spoke to a person and they obeyed.
Paul says it this way to the Galatians —
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:8
Here is the original text from Genesis —
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him,
Genesis 12:1-4
The Lord spoke to Abraham, and he received faith.
Abraham was justified, declared to be righteous, when he obey what the Lord spoke to him.
Same exact principle that James teaches.
JLB
Im reading it to as — God’s commands something and when a person hears what God speaks to them, they obey what God commands or speaks to them, then they receive the divine result, (fruit) from their obedience, whether justification, deliverance, healing or salvation...
“By faith”, or the obedience of faith, simply means God speaks to a person and the person obeys.
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:6
Who saved Noah’s household?
God
Noah
Noah and God working together
JLB
Hospes
Member
In this discussion, I was not thinking of Edwards as much as I was Spurgeon. Of course, Spurgeon can make the case better than I:
One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much
about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, "How did
you come to be a Christian?" I sought the Lord. "But how did you come to seek the
Lord?" The truth flashed across my mind in a moment I should not have sought Him
unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I
prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by
reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led
me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He
was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and
from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant
confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."
CH Spurgeon, from his sermon A Defense of Calvinism
It is what he refers to as "some previous influence" is what I was trying to get at in writing of desire; a desire that caused Spurgeon to choose. With Spurgeon, I believe that desire is God "at the bottom of it all."
Yes, He always seems to working to draw people to Christ.
JLB, if I could only get you to step just a bit further....
I will step further, not looking to the right hand or to the left, but walking in the path of righteousness.
Do you believe the Lord draws on the hearts of all men, or just those who are chosen for salvation?
Do you believe God saw through time before the foundation of the world, those who would choose Christ, and He chose them and wrote their names in the book of Life ?
JLB
JLB, if I could only get you to step just a bit further....
I think we can all agree that He didn’t choose tares, to be written in the Lambs book of life, but only sons of the kingdom.
- the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom,
- but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:37-42
:amen
JLB
Hospes
Member
Methinks you do not give any room for anyone disagreeing with you. Unless - of course - they choose the path of unrighteousness.
Words are a tricky thing in that they may be defined differently by you and I. If what you mean by our "Lord draws" as what He did when he yelled "Lazarus, come out!", then I would say He only draws those chosen for salvation. ANd those chosen for salvation, just like Lazarus, come to life and obey.
Even when I had held Arminian doctrine, I never understood the comfort people found in God's foreknowledge of their salvation. It muddled my mind how a person could be foreknown to do something and then have an effectual role in deciding whether or not to do it. I think when we speak about God being outside of time it is a bit like a catfish speaking of what it's like to live on land. With my catfish experience, I have a hard time wrapping my catfish brain around what it is to exist outside of time in order to see through time.
I'm glad you found an area of agreement. (Not being facetious.)
These are great! Although I want to add one more. And i believe it to be the most important one, and fulfilling all seven:
If anyone imagines that he knows and understands anything [of divine matters, without love], he has not yet known as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God [with awe-filled reverence, obedience and gratitude], he is known by Him [as His very own and is greatly loved]. 1 Corinthians 8:2-3 AMP https://bible.com/bible/1588/1co.8.2-3.AMP
Its a valid question to ask. Here is a scripture i hope that will answer your question:1. So when you read "obedience of faith," are you reading it "the actions of obedience that results from faith"?
2. When you read that Abraham was "justified by works," are you reading it that he was not justified until he offered Isaac on the altar?
TD
For just as the [human] body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [of obedience] is also dead. James 2:26 AMP https://bible.com/bible/1588/jas.2.26.AMP
Shalom
Out of all this, there is something missing. Abraham was justified 15 years before offering Isaac, since God declared him righteous at that time (Gen. 15), whereas he offered Isaac 15-17 years later in Gen. 22. Therefore, in order to adhere to the principle of non-contradiction of scripture, there has to be some reconciliation between Paul's usage of the word "faith" in Gal. 3 and Rom. 4, in contrast with James' usage of the word in James 2. The proof that the usages of the word is different is found in the contrast between these two verses:
Rom. 3:28 "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from the works of the law."
James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
Can you see that on the surface, these two statements are in disagreement, if indeed the term "faith" has exactly the same meaning in both cases?
So, the principle of faith in Christ that James is teaching is the same principle of faith that Paul teaches, if the idea of non-contradiction of scripture is assumed. And if that same principle of faith is being taught by both men, then they are using the term differently in those contexts, which requires a different definition of the term. I contend those definitions are:
Paul's usage of the word "faith" in Gal. 3 and Rom. 4 is that genuine faith which has spiritual basis, which infers the "root" that Jesus mentions in the parable of the sower. So in Rom. 10 Paul writes "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God," in which 1 Peter says that we are born again by the word of God, as being the same meaning and principle of genuine faith. This is the faith which has the spiritual element resulting in salvation mentioned in Eph. 2:8-10. This is the kind of faith by which people are justified with God, which is faith in Christ rooted in spiritual communion with God by the Holy Spirit.
In contrast, James uses the term "faith" in a much different manner - justified "not by faith alone." Therefore, his audience was different than Paul's audience, with a different problem. Familiarity with Paul's writings can show that Paul is writing to genuine Christians whose faith is confused by the voices of the Pharisee party (the legalist party). But James is obviously writing to Gnostics and antinomians who had infiltrated the churches at that time. It can easily be inferred that he is using the term "faith" in a shallow manner as those who claim to believe in Christ whose lives don't prove a genuine faith. This kind of faith which does NOT justify a person, lacks the spiritual element, in which Jesus said they "have no root in themselves."
The different usages of the term is established in the context in which those terms are used, which modifies the definition of the term in each situation. To summarize these differences:
1. Paul is writing to encourage immature Christians to trust in Christ without having to have a legal or works-based relationship with God.
2. James is warning people who disregard consideration of other peoples' needs, as something not of God.
3. Paul's teaching on faith shows that faith alone, or faith without any works, justifies a person with God, if indeed that faith is of the kind that trusts in Christ for those promises that are in harmony with the gospel, which results in a person repenting from sin and living in obedience to Christ's words.
4. James' teaching on faith shows that an inadequate faith doesn't cut the mustard.
5. Paul's usage of the word "faith" has the spiritual element.
6. James' usage of the word "faith" in Jam. 2:24 does not have the spiritual element.
7. Paul uses the word "faith" with the assumption that works of righteousness will follow, as shown by Eph. 2:8-10.
8. James uses the word "faith" in Jam. 2:24 with the assumption that no works of righteousness follows it, therefore he has to be saying that righteous works is proof of genuine faith, while saying that inauthentic faith doesn't lead to salvation.
Finally, in Gal. 3, Paul expands the term "believed God" to mean that Abraham understood that the "seed" which God was talking about was the Messiah first mentioned in Gen. 3:15. Therefore, Paul is suggesting that everyone believing in Christ is justified, in the same way that Abraham was justified and declared righteous in Gen. 15:6.
With this in mind, it becomes clear that I do not agree with your definitions of "faith" and "believe" as you laid it out in your previous posts.
TD
Last edited:
You must not have read my post.
I said -
The Lord spoke to Abraham, and he received faith.
Abraham was justified, declared to be righteous, when he obey what the Lord spoke to him.
The scripture that I’m referring to is Genesis 12:1-4, which s the first time Abraham was justified by obeying what the Lord spoke to Him. This is the obedience of faith, that Paul teaches.
There is no contradiction between James and Paul.
There is only misunderstanding what the scriptures teach.
JLB
Ok. I understandActually, I'm asking him these questions to get his take on it.
TD
Since everyone is born in sin and are by nature haters of God's will, there has to be some distinction between those who do finally obey God and those who don't. I contend that the distinction has to do with faith in Christ, and who has it and who doesn't. It has to do with how those who believe came to believe. On that point we are in disagreement.
But, why do you answer one question I asked (the easier one), and avoid the other? When do you think that Abraham was justified?
But just because it says that Noah "prepared an ark for the saving of his household," it doesn't mean that Noah saved his own household. Perhaps one could see it that way from a strictly human point of view. Someone grabs their child and gets them out of the way of oncoming traffic, thereby "saving" them. Noah built the ark "for the saving...," that is, for that purpose. Noah was believing that God would save them, and thereby obeyed what God commanded him to do. So from a spiritual point of view, it was God who saved them. And "Noah and God working together" does not prove that salvation is synergistic in nature. The Bible does not teach me that "I and God working together" brought me to a saving knowledge of Christ. It teaches me that God saved me first, and then my subsequent obedience was the result and proof of God's saving work in me.
In my mind we have to get beyond the surface tension, and get to the assumptions that are made in quoting proof texts, and what those assumptions are based on.
So, getting back to your idea:
Do you agree that some people have faith when God speaks and some don't?
TD
Works by faith comes from faith. True faith acts.
So then we are not justified by works of the law. We are justified by the actions that comes from our faith.
In other words. The fruits that comes from our faith .
So the common misunderstanding about this is that we must understand the difference between; acting by faith (acting on the Word by faith)
And the acts of man. (Acting on our own behalf, works done by our own strength and understanding)
Both are works. The difference is big tho...
Shalom
So then we are not justified by works of the law. We are justified by the actions that comes from our faith.
In other words. The fruits that comes from our faith .
So the common misunderstanding about this is that we must understand the difference between; acting by faith (acting on the Word by faith)
And the acts of man. (Acting on our own behalf, works done by our own strength and understanding)
Both are works. The difference is big tho...
Shalom