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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology
- Thread starter TibiasDad
- Start date
So then you're saying that when Paul says "works of the law" he is talking about works of man?Talking about two different kinds of works.
One work is of man ...
The other is the work of God...
There is a major difference between these works.. l
Bless td
And when James says "justified by works" he is talking about the works of God?
TD
That doesn't answer the question. Is there a contrast between Rom. 3:28 and Jam. 2:24? Note that "contrast" does not mean "contradiction," so I hope you aren't confusing those two words. Is there a contrast between those two words?I have never found a single contradiction in the Bible...
Only stupid humans beeing stupid. As we are experts at.
TD
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7
Noah by faith through God’s grace (God given ability; the Holy Spirit), moved with godly fear and built the Ark by which his family was saved.
- Noah did not know there was a flood coming without God warning him.
- Noah did not know how to build the Ark with out God showing him.
- Noah could have never have rounded up all the animals without God’s divine intervention.
Noah, working in harmony with God’s plan, and purpose prepared the Ark in obedience to God’s word.
The answer is clear.
JLB
I get the idea that you think faith that justifies is as shallow as the kind of faith that James is talking about in ch. 2 of his epistle. I get the idea that you think his term "faith" in Ja. 2:24 has exactly the same meaning as Paul's term "faith" in Rom. 5:1. Is this what you think?
TD
There is only one kind of faith that justifies, and it’s the faith James and Paul and Hebrews and Jesus teach;
The obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26
Ok, I agree with this. But the issue of the OP has to do with the salvation of souls. You're trying to teach that salvation results from faith plus works, are you not?
TD
No. Salvation results by grace through faith.
Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience in order to be complete, and become activated or alive, to produce the intended divine result.
The action of obedience to the Gospel is to repent, which results in the one being saved to confess Jesus as Lord.
Is confessing with your mouth Jesus as Lord, a “work” of the law of Moses?
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
JLB
I'm in agreement on this statement. Grace means that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 5:15), which means it requires NO WORK from us.
When you say "action of obedience" I see "work of man". If you don't mean that, can you please explain the difference?
I disagree with the idea that repentance is the cause of one being saved. The way I read scripture is that repentance is the proof (that is, the effect) of one being saved. Eph. 2:8-10.
It is possible for one to be deceived into thinking he has repented, when in fact he has not. This is suggested in the parables of the sower of seed and the wheat and tares. Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven. This is proof that some think they repented and are saved, but in reality they are not. It's called a false sense of security.
Actually, it is the beginning of obedience to the law, since Paul is quoting Moses in Deu. 30:14.
I agree with this quote, which means:
1. Belief comes first, in which one is justified
2. Righteousness is the condition of the one believing
3. Confession of Christ comes after, since it requires one already to believe and be righteous
4. Salvation is the all-encompassing term for the whole process of belief, justification, righteousness, confession, and further spiritual growth in the Christian life. When Paul says "you will be saved" in v. 9, he is not saying that is some future possible event, but rather that it is something that is as good as done (resurrection to eternal life).
TD
Yes. I misunderstood the difference.. sorry about that.That doesn't answer the question. Is there a contrast between Rom. 3:28 and Jam. 2:24? Note that "contrast" does not mean "contradiction," so I hope you aren't confusing those two words. Is there a contrast between those two words?
TD
But how do you mean contrast?
I think in the sense that they are really talking about two different things. Then yes there is a contrast.
But I would just called it different subjects.
Exactly! That is the difference..So then you're saying that when Paul says "works of the law" he is talking about works of man?
And when James says "justified by works" he is talking about the works of God?
TD
That is how I got to understand the two chapters..
I believe it is a correct interpretation of the two scriptures.
But study or ask God or maybe an elder about it.
We should get a revelation (true understanding) about these things.
Shalom ..
Go and see what the works of the law is in the old testament. There are a lot! ?Paul and James are not teaching a different gospel, if that's what you mean.
But as far as them saying different things, can you please explain the contrast between these two verses:
Rom. 3:28 "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from the works of the law."
Jam. 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
TD
Last book of the Torah.
613 laws when I googled it..
I don't get how you can say they are different subjects, and yet say how they are saying the same thing. But I said before that they are teaching the same gospel message and the same gospel truth. If that's what you mean by "saying the same thing," then I agree. But notice how the two statements are a contrast:Yes. I misunderstood the difference.. sorry about that.
But how do you mean contrast?
I think in the sense that they are really talking about two different things. Then yes there is a contrast.
But I would just called it different subjects.
One says we are justified by faith apart from works,
The other says we are justified by works, not faith alone.
In order for these two people to be teaching the same gospel, these statements must be reconciled by meaning of the context, if we are to adhere to the law of non-contradiction. I contend that it is reconciled this way:
1. Paul is teaching young Christians how to have a pure faith in Christ,
2. James is teaching gnostics that their so-called faith is no good.
So when Paul says "we are justified by faith apart from works of the law" that he is saying we are justified by faith alone, without having to do anything to obtain salvation, assuming of course that the faith is genuine.
And when James says "we are justified by works, and not by faith alone," he is saying that works of love for our neighbor is proof that we have the faith that justifies us in the sight of God.
TD
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This is how I read James: he talks about works of love for others, and is applying it to Christians. Therefore, when he says "justified by works" he is talking about works that Christians do - that is, works of man. But I think I know what you mean, as I believe you are really trying to understand the meaning of scripture. I think you mean that his "works" in this statement is works that Christians do, in which they are believing that God is working through them, so that their actions might be attributed to the works of God. These "works" are certainly not the works of unregenerate souls.
So in that sense, "justified by works" doesn't mean that the works cause one to be justified in the sight of God, because such a person already is believing God for working through him, and therefore has already been justified and given the gift of righteousness. Therefore, James' meaning of "justified by works" has to be that the works are proof that one is justified. And so, the example of Abraham that he gives is the works Abraham did 15 years after he was declared righteous. This example proves that James is talking about works that an already justified person does.
TD
What I meant by same thing. I meant in general. That they are teaching the same gospel in general.I don't get how you can say they are different subjects, and yet say how they are saying the same thing. But I said before that they are teaching the same gospel message and the same gospel truth. If that's what you mean by saying the same thing, then I agree. But notice how the two statements are a contrast:
One says we are justified by faith apart from works,
The other says we are justified by works, not faith alone.
In order for these two people to be teaching the same gospel, these statements must be reconciled by meaning of the context, if we are to adhere to the law of non-contradiction. I contend that it is reconciled this way:
1. Paul is teaching young Christians how to have a pure faith in Christ,
2. James is teaching gnostics that their so-called faith is no good.
So when Paul says "we are justified by faith apart from works of the law" that he is saying we are justified by faith alone, without having to do anything to obtain salvation, assuming of course that the faith is genuine.
And when James says "we are justified by works, and not by faith alone," he is saying that works of love for our neighbor is proof that we have the faith that justifies us in the sight of God.
TD
The two quoted scriptures are not talking about the same thing.
Like you are saying...
It seems to me that we might agree but some misunderstanding perhaps...
Paul talks about man's own actions.
That they are not the will of God
James talk's about acting on the teachings in the Word by faith in them.
"Faith acts" Hagin jr.
Thanks and seems to me like you are too! Trying to understand correctly.This is how I read James: he talks about works of love for others, and is applying it to Christians. Therefore, when he says "justified by works" he is talking about works that Christians do - that is, works of man. But I think I know what you mean, as I believe you are really trying to understand the meaning of scripture. I think you mean that his "works" in this statement is works that Christians do, in which they are believing that God is working through them, so that their actions might be attributed to the works of God. These "works" are certainly not the works of unregenerate souls.
So in that sense, "justified by works" doesn't mean that the works cause one to be justified in the sight of God, because such a person already is believing God for working through him, and therefore has already been justified and given the gift of righteousness. Therefore, James' meaning of "justified by works" has to be that the works are proof that one is justified. And so, the example of Abraham that he gives is the works Abraham did 15 years after he was declared righteous. This example proves that James is talking about works that an already justified person does.
TD
And I think you are spot on here!
James letter is written to believers.
I like James personally.
He is sharp and straight to the point!
Nothing to add other than that we are in agreement with eachother and the dudes who first wrote this ??
Paul had declared that to love God and others fulfilled the law, so works of love is included in works of the law. Since the law says "love God," then if a person has faith in Christ which begins their walk with God, the fulfillment of the "love God" law comes as a result of being justified by genuine faith.
Therefore, to clarify what James is saying in that context, we are first justified by genuine faith, and then works of love for God proves that we have in fact been justified. I don't believe James is saying works causes justification. The RCC teaches that, and I don't agree with them.
TD
Who are the RCC?Paul had declared that to love God and others fulfilled the law, so works of love is included in works of the law. Since the law says "love God," then if a person has faith in Christ which begins their walk with God, the fulfillment of the "love God" law comes as a result of being justified by genuine faith.
Therefore, to clarify what James is saying in that context, we are first justified by genuine faith, and then works of love for God proves that we have in fact been justified. I don't believe James is saying works causes justification. The RCC teaches that, and I don't agree with them.
TD
No. I agree with you. Because I believe that is the right interpretation of the Word.
Salvation comes from believing in Jesus. And then the action follows after.
The seed of faith is sown. Then it grows up and bares fruit.
Many scriptures confirming all this..
It requires the action of obedience, otherwise faith alone if it does not have obedience is dead, being incomplete.
Just as a body without the spirit is dead, being incomplete.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26
JLB
Obedience is doing what God says to do.
Rebellion the sin of witchcraft, is doing other than what God tells you to do.
One action is how we are saved, the other action is how we are damned.
Hopefully that is clear enough.
JLB