of course.
_Eventually someone did witness to them.
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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology
- Thread starter TibiasDad
- Start date
_Eventually someone did witness to them.
Tiberius
Its not wise to tell people God loves them, or that Christ died for them since they may be one of the vessels of wrath Rom 9 22 God doesn't Love nor did Christ die for. However the way to do it is just tell them God does Love His People whom He chose in Christ, and Christ died for those people which the Father gave Him, The Sheep Jn 10, and if they are to believe, God will give them faith to believe in Christ.
I am afraid so
Hospes
Member
Actually, the hyper-Calvinist is the one described by our Arminian friends here as they try their best to convince us it is where the doctrines of grace (TULIP) necessarily lead us.
I have no issue with calling everyone with the same messages given to non-believers in Acts 16:31, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” or of telling of God's plan in that He "so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." I doing so, I see nothing inconsistent with my Reformed theology.
I do see a problem with taking truths/promises spoken specifically to Christains and telling unbelieving people that the promises apply to them also. Promises such as:
- Romans 5:8 (ESV)
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
jasonc
Member
kinda hard to see that if God stared his desire that none should perish .
context is in reference in both uses of the comparison of the righteous and unrighteous .
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Good mornin' Wondering ... 44F in Texas, but sun is coming out
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Your "official" definition of Libertarian Free Will that I asked for:
Aside: This contradicts IMO the sin nature of man that says: Romans 3:10; John 3:20; Romans 7:18; Romans 8:7, etc. etc., but maybe you will show me how you get over this hurdle (possibly the prevenient grace doctrine)
Since, Libertarian Free Will decides to believe/disbelieve as determined by a starting point of neutrality (I could just as easily do "X" or "Y"); then to this is added outside influences (Wondering quote: "Libertarian free will does have outside forces INFLUENCING a decision") ... those outside forces must be the determining factor. Since a majority do not believe one concludes that the "outside forces" are not equally applied to people. For example, those brought up in Christian home more likely to believe due to influence of parents ... those who never hear THE WORD less likely to believe)
We on the Reformed side (the guys that have wandered from truth from your perspective) have a similar viewpoint except we don't think everything starts from a position of neutrality. We believe NO ONE SEEK GOD; that our sin nature ensures all go to hell unless there is an outside influence. But we agree on the point "free will does have outside forces INFLUENCING a decision". We believe God choices whom to influence and 100% of those so influenced believe; thus Christ's death is not in vain for He died only for those who will believe.
So, from my viewpoint God ensures everyone He chooses is saved and, IMO, you believe God gives everyone a 5% chance of believing as His influence is not efficacious. (5% is my guess in the dark ... no pun intended ... of how many have salvific faith excluding 'age of accountability)
Well, I guess you are not going to join us with those who have wandered from the truth. *just teasing in fun way* I can tell you have a love for God, that's what counts most.
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions. I see you have one more question ... I will answer on a subsequent post.
Well, if one wanders away from truth it is a bad thing no matter what the source. On the other side of the coin, God gave some the gift of teaching, so I assume these teachers (agreed, not all teachers) are to our benefit. You yourself have never truly read the bible without the aid of teachers, for it is written in Greek, Arimaic (sp?) and Hebrew and comes from left over partial copies of the original text that scholars have put together. Are there pitfalls?, yes ... are there benefits, yes.
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Your "official" definition of Libertarian Free Will that I asked for:
Your subsequent redefinition of Libertarian Free Will
So, now I am confused. There is a contradiction. Libertarian Free Will either affected by OUTSIDE FORCES, or it is no affected by outside sources. Not sure what to do as your original definition of "Libertarian Free Will" is the foundation of the discussion. (Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed ... so to speak) Let's go with newest definition that outside forces influence your decision but you start with an empty slate. So you look at the input (influence) and can decide to go left, or right, or not move or decide not to decide depending on the input.
Aside: This contradicts IMO the sin nature of man that says: Romans 3:10; John 3:20; Romans 7:18; Romans 8:7, etc. etc., but maybe you will show me how you get over this hurdle (possibly the prevenient grace doctrine)
Agreed, from a Calvinist perspective God determines what I do by influencing me so I freely do it in concurrence with Him.
Coercion: use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance. I consider the threat of hell to be intimidating (Frightening, overawing, or threatening). I can give Bible verse to substantiate threat of hell, but I think you agree that we are threatened with hell if we don't believe salvifically. (maybe we have a semantic problem?)
Smiles ... yes, I know that every place where I disagree with you that you believe I have "wandered from the truth". The inference has not been missed. *smiles* We all wander from the truth to some degree, we just don't know where.
The scale is an analogy. One one side is the people who believe and on the other side are those that don't believe. Since more don't believe the scale tips.
Since, Libertarian Free Will decides to believe/disbelieve as determined by a starting point of neutrality (I could just as easily do "X" or "Y"); then to this is added outside influences (Wondering quote: "Libertarian free will does have outside forces INFLUENCING a decision") ... those outside forces must be the determining factor. Since a majority do not believe one concludes that the "outside forces" are not equally applied to people. For example, those brought up in Christian home more likely to believe due to influence of parents ... those who never hear THE WORD less likely to believe)
We on the Reformed side (the guys that have wandered from truth from your perspective) have a similar viewpoint except we don't think everything starts from a position of neutrality. We believe NO ONE SEEK GOD; that our sin nature ensures all go to hell unless there is an outside influence. But we agree on the point "free will does have outside forces INFLUENCING a decision". We believe God choices whom to influence and 100% of those so influenced believe; thus Christ's death is not in vain for He died only for those who will believe.
So, from my viewpoint God ensures everyone He chooses is saved and, IMO, you believe God gives everyone a 5% chance of believing as His influence is not efficacious. (5% is my guess in the dark ... no pun intended ... of how many have salvific faith excluding 'age of accountability)
Well, I guess you are not going to join us with those who have wandered from the truth. *just teasing in fun way* I can tell you have a love for God, that's what counts most.
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions. I see you have one more question ... I will answer on a subsequent post.
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Hospes
Member
Given that God is all-powerful and nothing can frustrate His will, I think it is Biblical, and reasonable, that what God desires most, He accomplishes. So when I see the verse clearly saying He desires something - i.e. that none should perish - and yet know that there are those who will perish, I must assume He has another desire that is even greater. (Not that I should base my theology on my own experience, but I find in myself desires that compete with one another in the same way.) From my understanding of scripture, it seems His greatest desire is for His glory to be known and proclaimed; joyfully proclaimed by His redeemed creation and people. By all that has set itself against Him, His glory shall be proclaimed, but there shall be no joy in it.
Not sure what you mean...
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
O.K. I will use the work of another who is more articulate than I (plus it saves me time). Hopefully, it will show difference between Compatibilism and Determinism.
Compatibilism (from where I am coming from), teaches that people are free, but defines freedom differently. Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) God plan. God is continually involved with all created things in such a way that he cooperates with created things in every action, directing their distinctive properties to cause them to act as they do.
Classical theists affirm compatibilistic freedom for humans in that you are free so long as you act on your desires, but your desires are determined. In this conception of freedom God can perfectly guarantee that humans do exactly what God desires in every circumstance. All God has to do is ensure that our strongest desire in any instance is what God wants. Whatever we do is precisely what God wanted us to do in that instance.
Determinism affirms that God controls everything about everything that is anything, including every aspect of every detail of every human decision and action in such a way that man has no freedom in any meaningful or relevant sense.
Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.
My simple analogy:
Given: God has determined that I will go swimming in the lake
Compatibilism: God causes my will to be the same as his and I willing go swimming
Determinism: God causes me to go swimming, my desire is irrelevant. If I wanted to go swimming he doesn't have to intervene. If I don't want to go swimming He pushes me in.
Libertarian Free Will: I don't know if I want to go swimming. I'm not a fish. Hmm, God wants me to go swimming. If His arguments are convincing enough I will, but He can't make me. Of course, tomorrow He might ask and I may change my mind.
jasonc
Member
pastors words ,a desire and decree aren't the same ,a five pointer and his elders also stated.
so because persons like my sister who can't read ,write or understand wodds much ,let alone sin,she is just damned .
made to be burned?
yes i have sister who has not much of intellegence since birth and couldn't read or hear a bible to grasp sin .
jasonc
Member
ezekiel 18
God lists what a righteous person is and does and then stares if they turn south .he will judge them as wicked
how does whom he foreknow work with that ?
they fell because they aren't or weren't truly righteous ?
TibiasDad
Member
All men do suppress the knowledge of God, but not all to the same degree. Anytime we do something we know is wrong, we ate suppressing the knowledge of God. Anytime we alter the truth in order to justify ourselves in how we act, we are suppressing the knowledge of God. Our sinful nature bends our ear to the lies of Satan who always tries to diminish the truthfulness of reality, and that is a suppression of the knowledge of God.
I'm say all men, even those who are raised in good Bible believing homes and churches have, at one time or another, "sought to fill their lives with useless experiences/things/material goods"!
Actually, the quote is from Pascal, who said,
There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of each man which cannot be satisfied by any created thing but only by God the Creator, made know through Jesus Christ.
But this doesn't mean that God necessarily accepts his worship. Paul commended the Athenians on their being religious in Acts 17, but he said they were worshiping the wrong gods, and said the "unknown God" is the one they need to know and worship. They certainly knew that there was a "greater being" that demanded their worship, but they had lost their specific knowledge of the true God and replaced it with an inadequate rendition cobbled together from the fragmented pieces of a vague awareness that there is a "greater being" extant in the universe.
If it is God speaking, then it will be about Jesus, for, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) There is no "if that message is Jesus"; the gospel is always about Jesus!
Doug
Hospes
Member
This a good question and the answer is not simple. Ezekiel spoke to people under a different covenant than us, so some of the answer has to do with Christians being participants of the covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-34
Ezekiel did speak of righteousness, but not the righteousness we enjoy as God's redeemed. Our righteousness is not our own, but rather the perfect righteousness of Christ reconned to us as a grace. (I have zero confidence in my own ability to make righteous choices; I know myself too well to think I have what it takes to do that successfully.) Because I am convinced a believer's salvation is anchored in Christ's righteousness and not in the believer's own righteousness, I have to also believe that such salvation is eternal in that it is solely dependent on Christ's eternal righteousness.
Some related scripture:
Therefore he [Jesus] is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. (Hebrews 9:15)
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— (Philippians 3:8–9)
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13–14)
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
Now, those are some great promises! What a great salvation!
jasonc
Member
the problem here is the fact you overlooked ,if God foreknew his saints ,how could he meh,well that one didn't live up to it ,and i desired him to know and taught him ?
that
and oh Jerusalem thou,that killest the prophets .I desired to gather you like a hen does with her chicks under her wings ,but thou wouldn't ,there fore
Hospes
Member
The saint He elects, He keeps. He is the author and finisher of a believer's salvation. There are those that appear to be redeemed, but are not, i.e. tares among the wheat.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)
Not sure how this has a bearing on our discussion. Jesus is speaking to a city as a singular entity, it would be a mistake to apply it in such a way that indicates He is speaking to individuals.
jasonc
Member
ok so i judges brick walls and temples,and saves them
ye shall not see me until you say baruch ha ba beshem,Adonai
that's a city that can repent ?
he was talking to the Jewish people and the leaders who rejected him ,Jerusalem being the center piece of Jewry rejected him .he wanted them to be close !
Hospes
Member
Let's not be silly. If I pray that God brings America to repentance, I am not asking that He bring the brick walls and buildings to repentance. Neither am I applying the need for repentance to every individual in America.
I think to know God is the following:
Know, Knowledge
The Old Testament. The Hebrew root yada [[;d"y],translated "know"/"knowledge, " appears almost 950 times in the Hebrew Bible. It has a wider sweep than our English word "know, " including perceiving, learning, understanding, willing, performing, and experiencing. To know is not to be intellectually informed about some abstract principle, but to apprehend and experience reality. Knowledge is not the possession of information, but rather its exercise or actualization.
Thus, biblically to know God is not to know about him in an abstract and impersonal manner, but rather to enter into his saving actions ( Micah 6:5 ). To know God is not to struggle philosophically with his eternal essence, but rather to recognize and accept his claims. It is not some mystical contemplation, but dutiful obedience.
source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/know-knowledge/
Those that I'm speaking of know God in the way that is described above.
When we sin we are not suppressing God in the above way...but we are ignoring Him and doing our own will.
We may know the reality, but still do not obey.
When I sin, my knowledge of God does not diminish.
I learned in high school never to use the words: All, every, nothing, etc. because sooner or later I'd be wrong.
You say all men have at one time or another sought to fill their lives with useless experiences/things/material goods.
I know some that haven't.
Maybe most have.
Interesting. I found this:
Perhaps the notion goes back to St. Augustine of Hippo who wrote in his Confessions:
"You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you."
And Pascal said this:
“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace?
This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself”
source: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/
Thanks for the info!
Yes, some do worship the wrong God.
The persons I'm speaking of did not abandon the real God for a fake one.
Acts 4:12 is doing what Jesus said to do and share the salvation plan of God.
What was done before this?
And also I'd like to ask what Romans 1:19-20 means if not that God shows Himself to all so that man is without excuse if he is lost.
Also, what does it mean that Jesus died for the whole world?
I don't know anyone that tells unbelievers that the promises of God are also for them.
Romans 5:8
We were sinners before we were saved.
God sent Jesus to die for us while we were still sinners.
Unbelievers are STILL sinners....they do not take advangtage of God's promise.
Romans 5:1 tells us what the promise is:
We have been made right with God by faith in Him and His promises.
We can have real peace --- this is a promise.
Because of what Jesus has done for us.
We look forward to becoming what God would have us be.
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
God's promises are for believers.
They went out from us is referring to GNOSTICS.
John was very concerned about gnostics that were invading the church at the time he wrote this.
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
It is not referring to those that left Jesus because "they were never really saved to begin with".
No such person exists.
One is either saved or not saved.
Calvinists tend to worry about the above because if they fail in their works it means
they are not saved. They have no assurance of their faith since they did not choose God
and so must depend on the fact that, maybe, God chose them.
he gives us a heart to know Him
Jeremiah 24:7
“And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.”
before that he gives us a heart transplant
Ezekiel 36:26
“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.”
he does all this the moment we get saved .the word know is to have personal knowledge as in a personal relationship