The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[GodsGrace]

Hospes


page 2 of 2

When I read the scriptures, I do not see a God who seems constrained by anything other than His own nature. Look at these passages:

Psalm 33:10–11 (ESV)​

10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;​

he frustrates the plans of the peoples.​

11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever,​

the plans of his heart to all generations. ]​

Psalm 115:3 (ESV)​

3 Our God is in the heavens;​

he does all that he pleases.​

Amos 3:6 (ESV)​

6 Is a trumpet blown in a city,​

and the people are not afraid?​

Does disaster come to a city,​

unless the LORD has done it?​

Lamentations 3:37–38 (ESV)​

37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,​

unless the Lord has commanded it?​

38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High​

that good and bad come?​

Proverbs 21:1 (ESV)​

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;​

he turns it wherever he will.​

Psalm 135:5–10 (ESV)​

5 For I know that the LORD is great,​

and that our Lord is above all gods.​

6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does,​

in heaven and on earth,​

in the seas and all deeps.​

7 He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth,​

who makes lightnings for the rain​

and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.​

8 He it was who struck down the firstborn of Egypt,​

both of man and of beast;​

9 who in your midst, O Egypt,​

sent signs and wonders​

against Pharaoh and all his servants;​

10 who struck down many nations​

and killed mighty kings,​

And the list goes on and on. (Jesus did not ask Lazarus to rise, He commanded and Lazarus arose.) These passages, and many more, present a God who is very much in charge and shows no hint of bending his will to the creatures He fashioned from dust.

God is not constrained by anything. I just don't know how this idea could exist.
God can do whatever He wants to do....but we are taught that He has given His creatures free will and the ability to choose Him if they want Him.

Notice that all your verses are from the O.T.
God does not cause lightening.
Storms cause lightening.
Storms are a natural occurrence ....
God set up a system but it got damaged somehow...storms are part of that system.

God did not cause any disaster in any city - except Sodom and Gemorrah because it plainly states that as history.
He withdrew His protection, rather, and left us and nature to work within His system.

And yes, Jesus commanded Lazarus, as He commands us many times ----
We can obey Him or not.
You cannot use Lazarus as a general example...it refers to a specific story at a specific time.
As I said, God can do anything He wishes to do.

Also, knowing my own weakness and bent toward evil, I need a God that will cause me to finish my race and take me home to Himself. I desperately need an author and finisher of my faith. I DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES to be left with decisions to choose Good. To imagine myself believing as you do is terrifying. I do not want my salvation to rest on such a frail web of my own will to do good.

If you're not doing good now....you have a problem anyway since your good works prove that you are
persevering as a good saint should.

Do you think I choose evil all the t ime?
Do you never sin?
If so, why would God make you sin?
And why does God hold persons responsible for sinning when it is HE that determines it?
Does it not become unjust to send them to hell for doing what HE made them do?
(please don't try to say that the two are fact --- the two cannot be reconciled).

And why be so terrified?
I'm not and I don't think anyone on this forum that is non-calvinist is terrified.
We love God and wish to please Him and trust that Jesus will finish what He began.
We just need to let Him do it; let the Holy Spirit do His work in us.

It is our faith that saves us....then we naturally do good works.
not our good works without faith.

The scriptures speak of having no room for boasting. In my mind, your belief gives you much to boast about.

When did I boast?
When has anyone boasted?
What is there to boast about?

Every single righteous choice to do good, from your choice to be born again to your choice to not jaywalk, has a singular chain link you can point to and say, "Without my free-will decision, it would not have happened." I am good with looking to my Father and recognizing it was Him from beginning to end that brought about my salvation. To Him be ALL the glory. Amen.

Amen from my side too.
God planned our salvation from the beginning of time.
He knew we'd fail and that we'd need help.
How much does God love His world that He gave His only begotten Son?
That whosoever believes in Him will be saved.
Whosoever.

PS - Sorry for taking so long to get to responding to our earlier dialog.

No problem.
It's good to understand each other.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22

You must be a new Christian.
Just keep loving God.

 

[brightfame52]

and i disagree with your interpretation

That is fine.

 

[brightfame52]

Why can't you share your source or did you just hear someone else say this.

FYI, Under the guidelines of CF we are to present our sources of information so others can go read them.

I use strongs concordance

 

[for_his_glory]

These verses do not mention of the order of salvation. There is no mention of the spiritual rebirth in the first two examples so it is not possible to know from the verse whether or not regeneration (spiritual rebirth) comes before or after repentance.
Example:
You must do "A" then "B" to get the result "C"
If "A" = "Spiritual rebirth" and "B" = "repentance" and "C" = "salvation ... then the verse above simple infers you must do "B" to get "C". The absence of "A" simply means the order of salvation is not expounded upon in the verse.
In point of fact, you first 2 examples infer you must do "B" to get "C" and the last example infers you must do "A" to get "C"

Mark 1:1-5
Same comment as Mat. 4:17.

Interesting aside: The repentance spoken of here (and therefore possibly in Mat. 4:17) quite possibly did not lead to salvation, at least as we know it today. It almost certainly did not lead to the indwelling of the Spirit after Pentecost which is a sign of Spiritual Rebirth.
Re: Acts 19:2 He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [in Jesus as the Christ]?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he asked, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John performed a baptism of repentance, continually telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, [to confidently accept and joyfully believe] in Jesus [the Messiah and Savior].” 5 After hearing this, they were baptized [again, this time] in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in [unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesying.
Their answer “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” confirmed to the apostle that they were not yet Christians. They were unaware of the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost. This showed that they were probably Old Testament saints. Their response to Paul’s next question, “Into what then were you baptized?” further clarified their status. They responded, “Into John’s baptism,”.
” The apostle’s statement offers further proof that these disciples were not Christians as we define it; they apparently did not know that Jesus was the promised Messiah whom John proclaimed. Significantly, Paul did not instruct them about how to receive the Spirit, but about Jesus.
All that being said, Mark 1:1-5 is not the best example of present day conversion (faith and repentance).

John 3:5-7 Same answer. No mention of order of salvation in relation to repentance.
Actually, in this case there is not mention of repentance, but only being "spiritually reborn" which is the same as "Spiritually alive". Using your logic the verses prove confusing in regard to what order of salvation: repentance or being made "spiritually alive".
Example:
Mat. 4:17 says your must repent because Kingdom of God is at Hand
.... so you assume repentance comes before becoming 'spiritually alive'
Mark 1:1-5 says your must repent because Kingdom of God is at Hand
.... so you assume repentance comes before becoming 'spiritually alive'
John 3:5-7 you must be born again (become spiritually alive) to enter the kingdom of God
.... if you are consistent you must conclude that becoming "spiritually alive" comes before "repentance'
If you are consistent you have a unsolvable contradiction.

You are reading way too much into the verses IMO.

There are five requirements to Salvation as they all pretty much happen at the same time on this side of Pentecost as we are then indwelled with the Holy Spirit who seals us unto the day of redemption when Christ returns. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not come until Christ ascended up to sit at the right hand of the Father and then on the day of Pentecost were the disciples indwelled with the Holy Spirit and after Peter talked to the crowd there were around 3000 that day, Acts 2:14-41.

1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

 

[for_his_glory]

I use strongs concordance

Thank you. Was that to hard to share in the first place.

Faith is found in Galatians 5:22 as meaning the fruit is faithfulness and not faith itself as our faith is in Christ Jesus in whom we are faithful to Him in obedience to God's commands and statures, thus faithfulness found in us.

 

[for_his_glory]

You are responsible to explain your own scripture. Please don't put your labor on someone else.

Honestly I can not understand why you could not simply explain what I asked of you as I wanted to know how you understood them. This is how we share and discuss with each other. You can't just come in and expect others to take what you say at face value, how foolish would that be. You need to support yourself with scripture if you want others to discuss with you that of what you believe.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry for dropping out for a bit. I may have been gone. but I've been thinking.

G.K. Chesterton said that one of the reasons he was attracted to orthodox Christianity is that as he understood it better, it explained what he experienced in life. He likened it to a key, that when placed in the lock of his own experience, it fit the lock and the lock turned. C. S. Lewis wrote, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” I mention these because I want to explain why for me what you have written above has no attraction to me because it does not fit my experience or shed light on how I see "everything else." It also does not fit with my understanding of the Bible.

I picture your view of you choosing Good as a chain, with each link being a necessary ingredient for the choice to ultimately be for Good. Though many links may be attributed to God, there is one link for which you take responsibility. If you use your free-will to choose not-Good, one link is broken and the chain fails. You make it clear that God has allowed you this one link, i.e. His sovereignty over any specific choice of yours is handed over to you. You get to choose whether or not you will allow His will to be done in a specific choice you face. Ultimately, you have sovereignty over His will in the specific choice. Though I used to believe as you, now the thought of my being able to stymie God, even in a singular moral choice, is unthinkable to me. Though you may be repulsed by a God that retains His sovereignty over everything, I cannot imagine the uncertainty I'd have if I believed otherwise.

My middle son was a combat Marine in Afghanistan. Even though it may seem counterintuitive, I took great comfort that every bullet fired at my son flew according to the will a sovereign Father who loved me and loved my son even more than I did. Even killed or maimed, I'd rather know my son's fate was in the hands an absolutely sovereign God than one who has chosen to let His creatures have a final say in a specific choice. Let me reiterate: I find great comfort in a God who is in absolute and total control. (BTW, my son came home safe and sound, but not from the lack of people trying to make him dead.)

When I read the scriptures, I do not see a God who seems constrained by anything other than His own nature. Look at these passages:

Psalm 33:10–11 (ESV)​

10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;​

he frustrates the plans of the peoples.​

11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever,​

the plans of his heart to all generations. ]​

Psalm 115:3 (ESV)​

3 Our God is in the heavens;​

he does all that he pleases.​

Amos 3:6 (ESV)​

6 Is a trumpet blown in a city,​

and the people are not afraid?​

Does disaster come to a city,​

unless the LORD has done it?​

Lamentations 3:37–38 (ESV)​

37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,​

unless the Lord has commanded it?​

38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High​

that good and bad come?​

Proverbs 21:1 (ESV)​

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;​

he turns it wherever he will.​

Psalm 135:5–10 (ESV)​

5 For I know that the LORD is great,​

and that our Lord is above all gods.​

6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does,​

in heaven and on earth,​

in the seas and all deeps.​

7 He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth,​

who makes lightnings for the rain​

and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.​

8 He it was who struck down the firstborn of Egypt,​

both of man and of beast;​

9 who in your midst, O Egypt,​

sent signs and wonders​

against Pharaoh and all his servants;​

10 who struck down many nations​

and killed mighty kings,​

And the list goes on and on. (Jesus did not ask Lazarus to rise, He commanded and Lazarus arose.) These passages, and many more, present a God who is very much in charge and shows no hint of bending his will to the creatures He fashioned from dust.

Also, knowing my own weakness and bent toward evil, I need a God that will cause me to finish my race and take me home to Himself. I desperately need an author and finisher of my faith. I DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES to be left with decisions to choose Good. To imagine myself believing as you do is terrifying. I do not want my salvation to rest on such a frail web of my own will to do good.

The scriptures speak of having no room for boasting. In my mind, your belief gives you much to boast about. Every single righteous choice to do good, from your choice to be born again to your choice to not jaywalk, has a singular chain link you can point to and say, "Without my free-will decision, it would not have happened." I am good with looking to my Father and recognizing it was Him from beginning to end that brought about my salvation. To Him be ALL the glory. Amen.

PS - Sorry for taking so long to get to responding to our earlier dialog.

I know this was meant for wondering but are you not trying to make God fit your own experience making Him to be what you want Him to be in your own life. This is how I read it. If God did not give us free-will then why did Adam choose by his own choice to disobey God's command. If the only will we have is to obey God then why do so many choose not to obey.

 

[Hospes]

I know this was meant for @wondering but are you not trying to make God fit your own experience making Him to be what you want Him to be in your own life. This is how I read it.

Given I am not trying to have God conform to my experience, we have two considerations: I need to write more clearly and/or you need to read more carefully. I'll try to do my part and I'd hope you'd do your part.

If God did not give us free-will then why did Adam choose by his own choice to disobey God's command. If the only will we have is to obey God then why do so many choose not to obey.

Though I know that some write as if they are very knowledgeable on the pre-fall nature of Adam, I am not one of them. Frankly, what I read from such experts is at best speculation and, not surprisingly, supportive of their pet doctrinal prejudices.

 

[for_his_glory]

Romans 9:19–21 (ESV)
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

It may not sit well with people, but it's scripture.

You need to read above that verse for the full context as this is speaking about God's sovereign choice in who will follow His will and not their own will as these are the ones who are God's own. God calls and many hear His voice and follow, but many hear and refuse to follow. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Given I am not trying to have God conform to my experience, we have two considerations: I need to write more clearly and/or you need to read more carefully. I'll try to do my part and I'd hope you'd do your part.

Though I know that some write as if they are very knowledgeable on the pre-fall nature of Adam, I am not one of them. Frankly, what I read from such experts is at best speculation and, not surprisingly, supportive of their pet doctrinal prejudices.

Those who are indoctrinated by man's theories can not see the simple truth before them as they would rather believe that of what they are accustomed to.

 

[Hospes]

You need to read above that verse for the full context as this is speaking about God's sovereign choice in who will follow His will and not their own will as these are the ones who are God's own. God calls and many hear His voice and follow, but many hear and refuse to follow. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I am not sure I understand what you are wanting me to see. You wrote that the passage is about "God's sovereign choice in who will follow His will and not their own will..." I agree, but I'm thinking you were wanting me to understand something on a point in which we disagree. If so, can you help me get a better understanding?

 

[Hospes]

Those who are indoctrinated by man's theories can not see the simple truth before them as they would rather believe that of what they are accustomed to.

To be fair to all, I like to think that all of us are doing our best to follow Christ and understand what the Bible teaches us. We end up using terms like Arminian, Calvinist, Pelagian, Wesleyan, Baptistic, etc. as shorthand to communicate a general sense of what we believe by associating with a well-known system of belief. I've never read Calvin's main work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, though I understand my alignment with the "Five Points of Calvinism" is enough to be labeled Calvinist. I doubt most Arminianists have read much of what Jacobus Arminius wrote, and yet they know they disagree with the parts or all of the Five Points of Calvinism, so they get the label Arminian. I really don't think there is anything nefarious about using such "shorthand" for communicating, but it does end up at times sounding like people are disciples of a man other than Jesus Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not sure I understand what you are wanting me to see. You wrote that the passage is about "God's sovereign choice in who will follow His will and not their own will..." I agree, but I'm thinking you were wanting me to understand something on a point in which we disagree. If so, can you help me get a better understanding?

It goes back to me saying that God chooses His own by selecting those who are in His will and obedient to Him, while others He rejects as they walk in their own will as choosing to not walk in od's will nor are they obedient to His commands and statures by their own choices they make as in being free to follow their own will which equals free will to do what you want.

 

[for_his_glory]

To be fair to all, I like to think that all of us are doing our best to follow Christ and understand what the Bible teaches us. We end up using terms like Arminian, Calvinist, Pelagian, Wesleyan, Baptistic, etc. as shorthand to communicate a general sense of what we believe by associating with a well-known system of belief. I've never read Calvin's main work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, though I understand my alignment with the "Five Points of Calvinism" is enough to be labeled Calvinist. I doubt most Arminianists have read much of what Jacobus Arminius wrote, and yet they know they disagree with the parts or all of the Five Points of Calvinism, so they get the label Arminian. I really don't think there is anything nefarious about using such "shorthand" for communicating, but it does end up at times sounding like people are disciples of a man other than Jesus Christ.

I don't believe in labels nor do I associate myself with any organized religion.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

 

[Hospes]

It goes back to me saying that God chooses His own by selecting those who are in His will and obedient to Him, while others He rejects as they walk in their own will as choosing to not walk in od's will nor are they obedient to His commands and statures by their own choices they make as in being free to follow their own will which equals free will to do what you want.

If I understand you correctly, you saying God chooses who are His based upon whether or not they are "in His will and obedient to Him" and chooses who to reject based upon their disobedience to His will?

If I am understanding you correctly, then I have a question: does God have the choice of rejecting a person "in His will and obedient to Him" or choosing a person that is not "in His will and obedient to Him?"

 

[Hospes]

I don't believe in labels nor do I associate myself with any organized religion.

I think you mean something different than what you write. You may find certain labels unhelpful, restricting, etc., but I assure you that you believe in them. You are labeled a "Staff member" and "Administrator". These are helpful labels to folks like me that need to know a bit about your role. Even the word "Christian" is a label placed on those who follow Jesus.

Never have understood the pejorative term "organized religion." Is it more admirable to be part of disorganized religion?

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church.

It is only in the last 100 years or so that the word "religion" has fallen in disrepute. In the scriptures - you referenced where James used it in a good way - it is a fine word describing the worship and practice of religious people. A person may have false religion as mentioned in James 1:26 (ESV) or have true/pure religion as you mentioned in James 1:27 (ESV)

Anyway, it's a shame we are losing the use of a perfectly good word for no real benefit other than we get to have the self-satisfaction of saying "Christianity is a relationship, not a religion."

 

[Fastfredy0]

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

God’s freedom is that attribute of God whereby he does whatever he pleases. This definition implies that nothing in all creation can hinder God from doing his will. God’s liberty of action (freedom) would be limited by the assumed powers and prerogatives of man’s “libertarian free will”. “Libertarian Free will” is contrary to all our ideas of the dominion of God. It destroys the glory of his liberty of choice and the glory of this sort of freedom. Surely, man’s supposed “Libertarian Free will” cannot dominate the “freedom” of Gods free will. Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.

 

[Hospes]

Latin root word for religion is bondage

Deciding the current meaning of a word based on its etymology is a practice that can lead to strange places. Based on its etymology, pedophilia is good in that its roots simply mean friendship with children. Just sayin...

 

[for_his_glory]

Deciding the current meaning of a word based on its etymology is a practice that can lead to strange places. Based on its etymology, pedophilia is good in that its roots simply mean friendship with children. Just sayin...

Just saying, God is not about man's religions, but all about us having a personal relationship with His Son Christ Jesus.