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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

One cannot have faith without being Spiritually alive because faith is the fruit of the Spirit.
Could you please list the fruits of the spirit....
You'll find it in Galatians 5:22-23

Here it is:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.


Please notice that the word is FAITHFULNESS
NOT "faith".


Also, please notice that verse 24 tells us that
1. WE BELIVE IN CHRIST JESUS
and then
2. WE CRUCIFY THE FLESH

(not the other way around as you've been stating).

Galatians 5:24
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
 
A Spiritually dead person cannot hear the words of God Spiritually. What did Jesus say to these men In 8:43

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

The reason they could not hear Him is is they were tares, sons of the wicked one, the devil.

Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
John 8:43-44


JLB
 
Could you please list the fruits of the spirit....
You'll find it in Galatians 5:22-23

Here it is:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.


Please notice that the word is FAITHFULNESS
NOT "faith".


Also, please notice that verse 24 tells us that
1. WE BELIVE IN CHRIST JESUS
and then
2. WE CRUCIFY THE FLESH

(not the other way around as you've been stating).

Galatians 5:24
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Faith is one of the fruit of the Spirit. So consequently no Spirit no life no fruit.
 
The reason they could not hear Him is is they were tares, sons of the wicked one, the devil.

Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
John 8:43-44


JLB
The natural man is just like a tare, the same nature. Even the elect by nature are children of wrath as others. Read Eph 2:2-3


wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others
 
Hi for his glory....
There are a few new members here and I'd like to say that what I post it's always for those reading along.
I think you know this, but other new members may not.

We will never change the mind of someone that is committed to their theology .... or their knowledge of our God.
However, there are many on the fence, or thinking about a subject, and speaking about it seems like a good idea to me.

However, I also feel that the other member and I are repeating so it's beginning to need a rest !

I agree with you about Calvin, BTW. And I find it interesting that the "new" calvinists have softened up their tone to
make calvinism more palatable.
After awhile it's like beating a dead horse and time to move on. You have gone above and beyond and that is much appreciated. I know I am stepping down for now unless I need to reply and will be keeping an eye on the tone of the forum. God bless you for all your time and effort.
 
The natural man is just like a tare, the same nature.

That’s your own opinion.

A tare is not wheat and will never be wheat.

He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:37-39


Wheat is children of the kingdom but it must be fruitful, or be in danger of being cast out into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:11-12





JLB
 
Sorry, didn't understand this part. I will try a different tact. Are you saying that the divine nature of God cries at times, is tired at times, can die, doesn't know certain things? ... all traits described of Jesus
Do you know of the doctrine of the hypostatic union??????


I trust the Bible as the ultimate source of truth. I don't necessarily trust your interpretation, though I have faith in your integrity and honest efforts to understand truth.

So, the Bible says God changes his mind. Do you believe that to be literally true? Do you believe you can present a case to God and you might change His plan?
*interesting*


God is not jealous in the sense of the dictionary definition: feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages
Jealous in the sense that someone is giving something to someone that belongs to God.
Sorry... sort of lost train of discussion in regards to "jealousy"



You never did. Rather, you said God loves everyone without exception as stated in John 3:16. I pointed out that you should not come to that conclusion based on John 3:16 alone. I then sited as evidence sited other verses where the word WORLD does not mean everyone without exception.

Again, the word WORLD could have other meanings. You come to that conclusion because it fits you bias. You can't see the word WORLD could be understood in other ways.


See post #829 .. that is a short list ... long list would have 100+ verses


I am almost always ready to clarify.
Free Will: The ability to choice what you desire most at the time.
Re: Not free BTW ... if by that you mean my definition is NOT INFLUENCED, I agree. I take joy in the idea God influenced me and does influence me in such a way that I follow him (though imperfectly). Your theology has you follow due to indifference (no particular reason/uncaused ... you could follow, you might not)


sorry, the context of my previous statement is missing so I can't answer
Just a couple of comments:

I seem to have to clarify almost every single statement I make.
Everyone else seems to understand me the first time around....

I will check post no. 829 when I have the time and will comment.

Yes, trust the bible....not all those persons you mention and not even me.
But read it by y ourself and come to your own conclusion as to the nature of God.

Your explanation of free will is not complete by calvinist standards.
However the "new" calvinists are trying to soften every idea up a bit, so this is the new meaning.
EVERYONE is influenced in the decision they make.
What you desire most at t he t ime is what God MAKES YOU desire most at the time.
Whatever God wants will be what you want---- in calvinist terms, which is called compatible free will.
BTW,,,determinism and free will cannot be reconciled.
Determinism and personal responsibility cannot be reconciled.
No matter how many times Sproul and Macarthur and Piper speak of this "mystery".
 
Agreed, it is not theology 101.
It states that reformed doctrines does not believe in double predestination. You stated, as best I recall, that reformed doctrine believes in double predestination and this essay by a leading reformed proponent refutes your claim.
That what the intention.

Reformed doctrine believes in double predestination.
Double predestination means that God alone decides who will be saved and who will be damned.
If God decides who will be saved.....
what happens to the rest of humanity???
I believe it means that they will go to hell.
Whoever God "passes over" is going to hell because He has predetermined this.

I believe you may kind of like determinism,
but maybe not kind of like it since you can't seem to really accept what it means.
It means those going to heaven got mercy (unmerited favor) and those going to hell got justice (what they deserved)
Your define of Justice IMO means God had to give everyone the same opportunity to be saved. But your definition of justice is:

If God does NOT give everyone the same opportunity for salvation,,,
He cannot be called a merciful God.
If there are 5 person in a pit filling up with water and I pull out only 2....am I merciful ??

And yes, justice means giving a person what he deserves.
If a person freely chooses to trust in Jesus for His salvation...that person will receive the proper justice.
If a person is an atheist and does not believe in God by his own free will....that person will receive the proper justice.

If mercy and justice are not for everyone, they lose their meaning and become valueless.
Justice and mercy are attributes of God --- they have VALUE.
giving a person what he deserves
All the guys going to hell get "what they deserve".
I guess you think it unjust to not give everyone a chance to be saved; that, God is obligated to treat everyone the same. Scripture shows many places where God doesn't treat everyone the same.

Like where?
Please provide verses so we could discuss them.
I provided John 15-18 for justice and mercy.
Please do the same.
Maybe you are insisting that God is unjust if he does treat everyone the same in regards to salvation. I've shown He treats salvation in relation to babies differently than adults so that invalids that theory. Anyways...

Your "baby theory" is wrong.
God is just and merciful even to babies.
I cannot explain why again.
I addressed this with long article.

Your long article is wrong.
This is an easy concept and man-made words and concepts only confuse the matter.
If don't agree. 1 Cor. 2:14 .... Plus verses saying the gospel is foolishness in men's eyes ... to confound the wise (something like that)
For the message of the cross is foolishness [absurd and illogical] to those who are perishing and spiritually dead [because they reject it], but to us who are being saved [by God’s grace] it is [the manifestation of] the power of God.
I don't know what you don't agree with since you don't mention it.
Atheists do not believe the words of God.
What you h ave stated above is true.
Well, if that be true I am destined for hell with Allah's worshipers.
Perhaps you can soften that a little ... say .. Calvinist's have a different understanding of God in some areas.

Gee ... I wonder how much the Dallas Cowboys are losing by ... have to check my DVR. (Hmmmm, if God was just He would give Dallas better players ..... hmmm, I hope God likes my humor (spelt humour for you I suppose)
Calvinists change th e nature of God.
They make Him to be unloving, unmerciful and unjust.
I've provided verses showing His great attributes....
You have not shown me verses that state God is not loving, not merciful and not just.

The Dallas Cowboys. My brother's favorite team.
Humor vs. Humour. I spell it humor; I'm American (not English as you seem t o believe).
:)
 
Faith is one of the fruit of the Spirit. So consequently no Spirit no life no fruit.
Please show where in the bible it states that faith is a fruit of the spirit.

Do you suppose that because you REPEAT what you believe it makes it become true?

I showed you that FAITH is NOT a fruit of the spirit...
Please show me WHY you think it is.....
a bible verse please.

Than ks.
 
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22. Prior to quickening man is dead in sin Eph 2:1,5. Spiritually dead persons don't have the fruit of the Spirit which faith is.
I agree faith is listed as a fruit of the Spirit, but let me ask you this. How does one who is spiritually dead come to Christ if they are not drawn by the Holy Spirit to receive Him and what is your understanding of quickening?
 
Acts 10:34-35 .. this refers to Peter and Cornelius ... Peter did not think the Gentiles were in God's plan of salvation and then he 'see the light' so to speak and comes to the conclusion that God salvation is for the Gentiles also.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will [salvation, while occurring in the temporal order, is a result of a pre-temporal choice of the Father] [Such a statement could not be made in truthfulness if the execution of His purpose depended upon a cooperation with others which was in their power to withhold.]

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 10:9-17
The verses do not address the question at hand ... whether God selects the individual or the individual does the work of righteousness to believe on his own.

My turn
Theis: God did predestine/chose which individuals would come to him and predestined the plan. Read again.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have [received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will, (Note: it doesn't say according to His will and our will; just His will)

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess

Furthermore, if synergism is embraced, then there is the very real but subtle danger that men could boast that they made use of God's grace or had more wisdom than the man who rejected Christ. They could boast that they are different for, unlike others, they responded to Christ. The autonomous natural man would, then, ultimately determine His own salvation, not God. Since a work is a purpose achieved by physical or mental exertion. To believe is a difficult task; the Bible says it is foolishness to the unsaved and no one seeks God. Finally, the context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This is the short list
I checked out your short list.
It doesn't mean what you think it means.
You bring your ideas with you and interpret scripture based on that.
This is known as eisegesis.

You're forgetting that all in the bible must be explained by reconciling
a God that is: LOVING, MERCIFUL, JUST.
If a verse does not show the above...it cannot be right because God does not change.
God was the same yesterday, is today, and will be tomorrow.


Pick one verse and we'll go through it.
 
Please notice that the word is FAITHFULNESS
NOT "faith".
In the KJV the word faith is listed, but I agree as I understand it to mean faithfulness as faith which is Christ Jesus given by God's grace would not be a fruit of the Spirit, but God's gift to the world.

brightfame52 I forgot to add that to my post #870.
 
In the KJV the word faith is listed, but I agree as I understand it to mean faithfulness as faith which is Christ Jesus given by God's grace would not be a fruit of the Spirit, but God's gift to the world.

brightfame52 I forgot to add that to my post #870.
Interesting. I just looked it up in my KJV and indeed it says FAITH.
In every other version I have it says FAITHFULNESS.
Which makes sense because one has to have faith in order to be faithful.

I also noticed that FRUIT in singular...It is not THE FRUITS of the spirit.

Perhaps we can expect to have ALL these fruit?
To whatever degree we God gifts them to us by the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
Please show where in the bible it states that faith is a fruit of the spirit.

Do you suppose that because you REPEAT what you believe it makes it become true?

I showed you that FAITH is NOT a fruit of the spirit...
Please show me WHY you think it is.....
a bible verse please.

Than ks.
Gal 5 22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 
Gal 5 22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Faith cannot be a fruit of the Spirit because it is necessary to first have faith in order to get the fruit.

Here are some explanations for you that will explain what I've said more fully:

Faith.—Rather, perhaps, faithfulness; not here in the sense peculiar to St. Paul, in which faith is the primary Christian virtue, but rather (as the context shows) “faithfulness,” or “trustworthiness” in dealing with men, along with, perhaps, that frank and unsuspicious temper which St. Paul ascribes specially to charity (1Corinthians 13:7).


It is clear from the subordinate place here assigned to πίστις that it does not here denote the cardinal grace of faith in God which is the very root of all religion, but rather good faith in dealings with men, and due regard to their just claims.


faith] Either ‘fidelity’, ‘trustworthiness’; or ‘trustfulness’ as opposed to distrust in dealings with others.
 
They are drawn to Christ after they are born of the Spirit.
Why do you never show us what you believe with scripture. Do you really think we are foolish enough to just take your word for it!!!

Please explain these scriptures below if we are not to repent of our sins first before the Spiritual rebirth takes place.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mark 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 
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