The Verse That Annihilates All "Rapture" Theology

[Vic C.]

If the rapture were to hapen after the Great Tribulation, then anyone would be able to calculate the exact time of Christ's glourious appearing and the judgement of antichrist.

Hi Jason, I believe the timing of the harpazo has something to do with Rosh Hashanah. Here you will find the trump of God, which is in 1 Thess. 4:16. The trump in Revelation 4:1 is, in my opinion, is not a trumpet. The verse states, "and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;" as in , like a trumpet; an analogy. Plus it says "the first voice". 1 Thess. 4:16 tells us there is a voice and a trump.
1 Cor 15:52 says, " In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Do some research on the Trumps of God and Rosh Hashanah. This brings me to my next point. No one can really pin down the exact time for two reasons; no one knows when the GT will end and Rosh Hashanah is a two day event. Kind of tough to choose which of these two days it might be. Jesus tells us, "Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. Nowhere does He say we are not to know the aprox. timeframe.

Consider the "Jewishness" of it all, brother. ;-)

 

[BenJasher]

As far as Elijah, after he was taken up, he wrote a letter to Jehoram as recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. This was after the event where Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind. How did he write a letter to some one if he is in heaven?

Wow Wavy, I never noticed that scripture before about Elijah! This was after the death of Elisha, was it not? I am unsure. But, if he was raptured, as we have been led to believe, he couldn't have written a letter to Jehoram, could he?

However, in reading this story out of the Book of Chronicles, and from 2 Kings as well, I noticed a tiny little tidbit of Bible trivia:
For a time, both Judah and Israel had kings with the same name. What was the name of those two kings?
Any trivia buffs know the answer?

 

[JM]

I don't understand your view, JM.

I am arguing no rapture at all. Just a coming to earth. Of course, believers will be caught up in the air TO BE CHANGED, but not to be taken to heaven, and especially not to escape the Great Tribulation.

lol, I don't have a dogmatic view! I'm not trying to sway anyone either way, I'm just posting thoughts on the end times.

 

[JM]

Consider the "Jewishness" of it all, brother. ;-)

I think that maybe the problem, the Jewishness is why the Church isn't going through the GT...the Church isn't Jewish! You're mixing Jewishness with Christian idenity, and this will be the point in which you and I disagree.

I post more in a short while, I just had a virus warning.

lol

 

[JM]

OK, I'm back.

Three key principles:

• 1 - A clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church.
  2 - A consistent and regular use of a literal principle of interpretation
  3 - The understanding of the purpose of God as His own glory rather than the salvation of mankind.

I believe God removes all of His elect from the earth when He brings judgment on the world. I believe that to be the point of the following scriptures: John 14, 1 Thess 4:16.

 

[wavy]

1 - A clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church.

False, because they are one and the same.

I believe God removes all of His elect from the earth when He brings judgment on the world. I believe that to be the point of the following scriptures: John 14, 1 Thess 4:16.

No, that cannot be taken from reading those text. Only superimposed very abstractly, imo. And Israel is the elect. Numerous scriptures testify of this.

 

[Vic C.]

A virus!?!? :o :o LOL (though I know it's not a laughing matter)

I think that maybe the problem, the Jewishness is why the Church isn't going through the GT...the Church isn't Jewish! You're mixing Jewishness with Christian idenity, and this will be the point in which you and I disagree.

I guess you are correct. I understand it to be this way; some of the branches (Israel) have been cut off, leaving room for us (Gentiles) to be grafted in as their spiritual descendants.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

One key difference to me is we have recgonized Messiah, while they rejected Him, leading to the "pruning", so to speak. Another difference is we have the assurance of salvation in John 3:16 and:

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

I should add to this, I believe there is a speration between Israel and the ekklesia; the "fullness of the Gentiles" seems to indicate that God "handles" these two 'groups' differently.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Vic C.]

... I believe God removes all of His elect from the earth when He brings judgment on the world. I believe that to be the point of the following scriptures: John 14, 1 Thess 4:16.

No, that cannot be taken from reading those text. Only superimposed very abstractly, imo. And Israel is the elect. Numerous scriptures testify of this.

I don't see much in John 14 indicating a removal of catching up of the ekklesia, but there is something in that chapter that caught my eye. To that in a moment.

Add 1 Thess 4:17 to your post Jason and I can agree with you. You know that is a key passage for we PreWrath proponents. 8-)

I also see the "elect" as being either/or or both.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
________________________________________________________________________

Now back to John... Verse 14:21 stood out for me and may cause me to rethink something I said to one of the posters in this thread via PM.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I see a parallel and resemblance to these two verses; both seem to be addressing Christ's ekklesia.

 

[wavy]

I think that maybe the problem, the Jewishness is why the Church isn't going through the GT...the Church isn't Jewish! You're mixing Jewishness with Christian idenity, and this will be the point in which you and I disagree.

A perfect example of the vexation and envy both houses of Israel have for another.

I guess you are correct. I understand it to be this way; some of the branches (Israel) have been cut off, leaving room for us (Gentiles) to be grafted in as their spiritual descendants.

No, as their physical and spiritual descendants, I believe. Abraham was never promised and did not believe in "spiritual descendants". And if you are graffed in to the olive tree (which is an Israelite Olive Tree with branches of both houses; see Jeremiah 11:16-17), then by definition you are Israel. Only the unbelieving branches are cut off, not the nation as a whole, thus (although I know you didn't say this) no replacement theology.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

One key difference to me is we have recgonized Messiah, while they rejected Him, leading to the "pruning", so to speak. Another difference is we have the assurance of salvation in John 3:16

Not getting into the indentity of the Galatians, I'l just say that John 3:16 does not teach universalism. Messiah came for Israel, which was scattered abroad all over the world in all nations, according to the scriptures. The world has opportunity to be saved through Israel's calling and restoration, but the world is not the primary focus. His elect nation (Israel) is.

I should add to this, I believe there is a speration between Israel and the ekklesia; the "fullness of the Gentiles" seems to indicate that God "handles" these two 'groups' differently.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Not at all. The "fullness of the Gentiles" is a phrase Paul takes directly from Genesis 48:19, where the seed of Ephraim collectovely known as Israel (ten tribes) later on was said to become a melo ha-goyim, or "fullness of the nations/gentiles".

Blindness in part has happened to all Israel, both houses. Ephraim is blind to Torah. Judah is blind to Messiah. But when the prophetic passage of Genesis 48:19 comes to pass, both houses will start seeing clearly, and so all Israel will be saved. This is not a distinction between some "church" of "gentiles" and Israel. You violate 90% of the scripture, I'd say (no offense) in claiming that Yahweh has any more than one people: one congregation.

Acts 7:38 and Hebrews 12:23 reveal Israel as the congregation. There are no others.

 

[wavy]

I also see the "elect" as being either/or or both.

Can't be "both". It can only be both houses of Jacob that make one Israel.

Please read Isaiah 45:4 for just ONE scripture that proves that Israel is Yahweh's "elect/chosen". Also, the scriptures about the "elect" you posted all defeat your post above that there is a difference between the ekklesia and Israel.

Now back to John... Verse 14:21 stood out for me and may cause me to rethink something I said to one of the posters in this thread via PM.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I see a parallel and resemblance to these two verses; both seem to be addressing Christ's ekklesia.

Indeed, and the woman is Israel, crowned with twelve stars for the twelve tribes.

 

[Vic C.]

You violate 90% of the scripture, I'd say (no offense) in claiming that Yahweh has any more than one people: one congregation.

Your opinion, of course... and no offense taken. I'd like to see the 90% though.

Acts 7:38 and Hebrews 12:23 reveal Israel as the congregation. There are no others.

I disagree... and by you saying that, you ingore the several verses I posted. I see Israel as a congregation, not the congregation. Here is the literal translation of Acts 7:38...

38 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us,

It specifically points to them being the "congration in the wilderness". Is Christ's ekklesia in the wilderness also?

 

[Vic C.]

Please read Isaiah 45:4 for just ONE scripture that proves that Israel is Yahweh's "elect/chosen".

I don't believe Isaiah 45:4 proves what you claim it proves.

Also, the scriptures about the "elect" you posted all defeat your post above that there is a difference between the ekklesia and Israel.

I disagree. I think they at least show the "elect" to be both. I see where these might be some confusion. I wrote either/or or both, but meant, either or both. Simple typo on my part.

 

[wavy]

Your opinion, of course... and no offense taken. I'd like to see the 90% though.

Well, you call Yahweh a liar then. I don't see anywhere in the Tanach where Yahweh says he chooses two types of people. That isn't proven.

Acts 7:38 and Hebrews 12:23 reveal Israel as the congregation. There are no others.

I disagree... and by you saying that, you ingore the several verses I posted. I see Israel as a congregation, not the congregation. Here is the literal translation of Acts 7:38...

Several verses you posted? About what? Those disproved your point. There is only one body, one faith. To say there are two congregations is a blatantly and without a doubt incorrect. If there is two of anything, there is both houses of Israel. Anything else is not in scripture.

38 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us,

It specifically points to them being the "congration in the wilderness". Is Christ's ekklesia in the wilderness also?

Depends on where you put emphasis in the sentence. The congregation (Israel) in the wilderness (the fathers who were alive at the time). He's talking about the time period, not that the assembly is still in the wilderness.

 

[wavy]

I don't believe Isaiah 45:4 proves what you claim it proves.

Then Yahweh is a liar.

Also, the scriptures about the "elect" you posted all defeat your post above that there is a difference between the ekklesia and Israel.

I disagree. I think they at least show the "elect" to be both. I see where these might be some confusion. I wrote either/or or both, but meant, either or both. Simple typo on my part.

Well, you can disagree if you want to, but there isn't sufficient scriptural evidence that backs that up.

 

[Jay T]

Re: The Verse That Annihilates All "Rapture" Theol

Messiah claimed to be the resurrection and the life, not the rapture and the life.

That is really good.
And, had anyone really thought about that thought carefully.....they would understand.

 

[Georges]

Re: The Verse That Annihilates All "Rapture" Theol

Messiah claimed to be the resurrection and the life, not the rapture and the life.

That is really good.
And, had anyone really thought about that thought carefully.....they would understand.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I think a hint of a rapture (in the sense of a glorified body change without physical death) can be argued with verse 26. This in association with Paul's rapture verse are very similar.

 

[Jay T]

Re: The Verse That Annihilates All "Rapture" Theol

Messiah claimed to be the resurrection and the life, not the rapture and the life.

That is really good.
And, had anyone really thought about that thought carefully.....they would understand.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I think a hint of a rapture (in the sense of a glorified body change without physical death) can be argued with verse 26. This in association with Paul's rapture verse are very similar.

I agree.
Although I don't like the term 'Rapture' because of it's many errors.
I prefer the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[Georges]

Re: The Verse That Annihilates All "Rapture" Theol

[quote="Jay T":da083]

Messiah claimed to be the resurrection and the life, not the rapture and the life.

That is really good.
And, had anyone really thought about that thought carefully.....they would understand.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I think a hint of a rapture (in the sense of a glorified body change without physical death) can be argued with verse 26. This in association with Paul's rapture verse are very similar.

I agree.
Although I don't like the term 'Rapture' because of it's many errors.
I prefer the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.[/quote:da083]


No errors with the rapture, except for timing issues.....please list the "many errors" in your opinion so we can discuss....

 

[strengthened]

Can anyone post verses on the following which pertains to the end time?

1. The wrath of satan
2. The wrath of God Almighty
3. The wrath of the Lamb

 

[Judy]

Wrath of Satan- Rev. 12:12. "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.''
13. Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
14. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
15. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
16. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The wrath of God/the Lamb- Rev. 6:12. I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16. and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17. "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?''

Revelation 15:1. Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.