The Virgin of the Lilies

[bibleberean]

The fact is that Mary is the one Catholics run to for access to her son...

The following is from this website...

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/popemary.htm


Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894: "When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow."

Pius X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of ALL favors which Jesus acquired for us by his death . . .

Where in Scripture does it say that Mary dispenses "favors that Jesus acquired for us by His death"?

Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: "To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."

Where in scripture does it say that Mary "redeemed the human race together with Christ?

Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix."

Where in scripture is Mary called "Coremptrix"?

Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946: "Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption."

Where in the scripture does it say Mary has "an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the redemption"?

John XXIII, Vatican II's Lumen Gentium, 1965.

Paul VI, Christi Matri. "The Church ... been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary ... For as St. Irenaeus says, she 'has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race"

I thought God was the cause and the salvation for the whole human race including the earthly mother of Jesus Christ.

John Paul II, Mother of the Redeemer, 1987.

Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849: "For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."

Pius the IX is a bald faced liar and filthy heretick! We obtain NOTHING from Mary and ALL from Jesus!

Leo XIII, Supremi Apostolatus, 1883: "O Mary, the guardian of our peace and the dispensatrix of heavenly graces."

Another lie from the pit!

Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."

Mary is the neck of Jesus...? She turns her son any way she chooses?

That is horse manure and a slap in the face of God!

Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Are: "In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God's will, every grace and blessing comes to us."

So now all miracles and blessings flow through Mary? Where in the bible does it say that?

Let me give you a hint it doesn't say anything of the kind!

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Plus XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, 1928: "Confiding in her intercession with Jesus, "the one Mediator of God and man, who wished to associate his own Mother with himself as the advocate of sinners, as the dispenser and mediatrix of grace."

Plus XII, Superiore Anno, 1940: "As St. Bernard declares, 'it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary."

We have direct access to God through Christ not Mary! People who teach otherwise are liars, snakes and children of the father of lies!

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.


John XXIII, see Vatican II, Lumen Gentium.

Paul VI, see Lumen Gentium.

John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, "In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."

Pig swill and filthy blasphemy!

Mary has never had nore does she now have any say in obtaining eternal salvation for us! Dirty lies!

Jesus has obtained salvation for us!

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Here is the response hereticks can expect from me.

2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

 

[Dave...]

Where is this Catholic code book so the rest of us will know that when a Catholic says something like Grace, they really mean works. Or when a Catholic says that Mary is a co redemptrix, they don't really mean co redemptrix. You don't worship idols, you just make images of people and God Himself, bow down before them, kiss them, carry them in procession, pray to them, light candles around them etc. but it's not worship, right?

It seems that everything the Catholics says, actually somehow means the opposite of how most people would understand what they said, to mean. Is this by design?

I'm tired of the Catholic spin.

 

[fiat]

I would point you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which Church teachings are spelled out for the world to see. It's not that Catholics "spin" things, so much as words are put in our mouths and our actions are interpreted for us.

 

[Vic C.]

Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."

I heard a very similiar quite. It dated back to 3rd. or 4th. century, I believe. Can't remember you originally said it though.

"If Christ is the Head, then Mary must be the neck it turns on."

:o

 

[Dave...]

...

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Where is this Catholic code book so the rest of us will know that when a Catholic says something like Grace, they really mean works. Or when a Catholic says that Mary is a co redemptrix, they don't really mean co redemptrix. You don't worship idols, you just make images of people and God Himself, bow down before them, kiss them, carry them in procession, pray to them, light candles around them etc. but it's not worship, right?

It seems that everything the Catholics says, actually somehow means the opposite of how most people would understand what they said, to mean. Is this by design?

I'm tired of the Catholic spin.

^This is the Protestant version of 'ugly American.'

Q/"Why don't they do things and say things in a way I understand?"
A/ "Cuz the world does not revolve around you and your understanding."

I know that may be a shocker to ya Dave, but the 45 million American Evangelicals ain't "most people."

Now it's time for my Q and A:

Do you kiss your wife/kids?
Do you ever attend parades?
Do you have an image of Jesus or the cross anywhere in your house or church?

Are you, in fact, sir, an idolater?

w/b soon
Jimmy

 

[bibleberean]

Greetings Dave,

Do you run to pictures, paintings, statues of dead relatives and friends and ask them to obtain graces of salvation for you? Do you honor these people by crawling on your knees until they bleed or count beads to them for hours on end and ask them to grant you access to the Father?

I didn't think so! :D

You in fact sir are not a worshipper of the "Queen of Heaven". You are not an idol worshipper.

The fact is that Mary is the one Catholics run to for access to her son...

The following is from this website...

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/popemary.htm


Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894: "When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow."

Pius X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of ALL favors which Jesus acquired for us by his death . . .

Where in Scripture does it say that Mary dispenses "favors that Jesus acquired for us by His death"?

Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: "To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."

Where in scripture does it say that Mary "redeemed the human race together with Christ?

Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix."

Where in scripture is Mary called "Coremptrix"?

Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946: "Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption."

Where in the scripture does it say Mary has "an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the redemption"?

John XXIII, Vatican II's Lumen Gentium, 1965.

Paul VI, Christi Matri. "The Church ... been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary ... For as St. Irenaeus says, she 'has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race"

I thought God was the cause and the salvation for the whole human race including the earthly mother of Jesus Christ.

John Paul II, Mother of the Redeemer, 1987.

Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849: "For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."

Pius the IX is a bald faced liar and filthy heretick! We obtain NOTHING from Mary and ALL from Jesus!

Leo XIII, Supremi Apostolatus, 1883: "O Mary, the guardian of our peace and the dispensatrix of heavenly graces."

Another lie from the pit!

Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."

Mary is the neck of Jesus...? She turns her son any way she chooses?

That is horse manure and a slap in the face of God!

Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Are: "In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God's will, every grace and blessing comes to us."

So now all miracles and blessings flow through Mary? Where in the bible does it say that?

Let me give you a hint it doesn't say anything of the kind!

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Plus XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, 1928: "Confiding in her intercession with Jesus, "the one Mediator of God and man, who wished to associate his own Mother with himself as the advocate of sinners, as the dispenser and mediatrix of grace."

Plus XII, Superiore Anno, 1940: "As St. Bernard declares, 'it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary."

We have direct access to God through Christ not Mary! People who teach otherwise are liars, snakes and children of the father of lies!

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.


John XXIII, see Vatican II, Lumen Gentium.

Paul VI, see Lumen Gentium.

John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, "In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."

Pig swill and filthy blasphemy!

Mary has never had nore does she now have any say in obtaining eternal salvation for us! Dirty lies!


Jesus has obtained salvation for us!

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Here is the response hereticks can expect from me.

2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

This crowning never happened... Only in pagan mythology

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[bibleberean]

This is the Roman Catholic All powerful Queen with the perpetual mamma's boy in her lap...

Notice they are in heaven both with crowns... This is not a painting to commemorate Christ's humanity but to show him in heaven as a perpetual child...

They are both holding leather scapulars in their hands... Mary supposedly appreared to many so-called Catholic "saints" giving them the command to wear her scapular for protection...

According to RCC mythology...


The Value of the Scapular

Our Lord taught us to say the "Our Father." Mary taught us the value of the Scapular. When we use it as a prayer, Our Lady draws us to the Sacred Heart of her Divine Son. It is well, therefore, to HOLD THE SCAPULAR IN THE HAND while addressing Our Lady. A prayer uttered thus, while holding the mystical Scapular, is as perfect as a prayer can be. It is especially in TIME OF TEMPTATION that we need the powerful intercession of God's Mother. The evil spirit is utterly powerless when a Scapular-wearer, besides his silent devotion, faces temptation calling upon Mary. "If thou hadst recommended thyself to me, thou wouldst not have run into danger," was Our Lady's gentle reproach to Blessed Alan de la Roche.

***Pope Benedict XV granted a partial indulgence EACH TIME the Scapular is kissed.***

You will never find female worship like this in the bible...

Never!

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I would point you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which Church teachings are spelled out for the world to see. It's not that Catholics "spin" things, so much as words are put in our mouths and our actions are interpreted for us.

And the mormons say to let the elders come over and tell you what they truly believe also. Doesn't make it one bit right and you won't learn all you need to know in those first lessons. You will learn more and more of the horrors of their religion as you go along. Kind of the old dunk em first attitude of giving a little at a time so you can wrap them up firm. The catechism is no different.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I would point you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which Church teachings are spelled out for the world to see. It's not that Catholics "spin" things, so much as words are put in our mouths and our actions are interpreted for us.

And the mormons say to let the elders come over and tell you what they truly believe also. Doesn't make it one bit right and you won't learn all you need to know in those first lessons. You will learn more and more of the horrors of their religion as you go along. Kind of the old dunk em first attitude of giving a little at a time so you can wrap them up firm. The catechism is no different.

I call to mind the altar calls of the Evangelicals, based upon emotional appeal and fear tactics- and yet you have the nerve to accuse others of hidden agendas and "giving a little at a time."

And I might mention the self-appointed teachers/elders who assure everyone who's right and who is not, why and when, based upon their interpretation of the buy bull. I have seen the horrors of that particular approach played out on this forum.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

[quote="Lyric's Dad":b75c3]

I would point you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which Church teachings are spelled out for the world to see. It's not that Catholics "spin" things, so much as words are put in our mouths and our actions are interpreted for us.

And the mormons say to let the elders come over and tell you what they truly believe also. Doesn't make it one bit right and you won't learn all you need to know in those first lessons. You will learn more and more of the horrors of their religion as you go along. Kind of the old dunk em first attitude of giving a little at a time so you can wrap them up firm. The catechism is no different.

I call to mind the altar calls of the Evangelicals, based upon emotional appeal and fear tactics- and yet you have the nerve to accuse others of hidden agendas and "giving a little at a time."

And I might mention the self-appointed teachers/elders who assure everyone who's right and who is not, why and when, based upon their interpretation of the buy bull. I have seen the horrors of that particular approach played out on this forum.[/quote:b75c3]Is this how you justify marian worship or is this a diversion tactic? Giving people an opportunity to place their faith in Jesus Christ at the end of a service is hardly a manipulation. It is straight forward and spelled out. It is giving those people who have been convicted of the truth by the Holy Spirit an opportunity to call on the Name of Jesus Christ for salvation and confess Him in front of others, all of which is Biblically sound.

Of course I guess we should just baptize them as babies and call on Mary to watch over them and deliver them to heaven when the time is right. :roll:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":a9763][quote="Lyric's Dad":a9763]

I would point you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which Church teachings are spelled out for the world to see. It's not that Catholics "spin" things, so much as words are put in our mouths and our actions are interpreted for us.

And the mormons say to let the elders come over and tell you what they truly believe also. Doesn't make it one bit right and you won't learn all you need to know in those first lessons. You will learn more and more of the horrors of their religion as you go along. Kind of the old dunk em first attitude of giving a little at a time so you can wrap them up firm. The catechism is no different.

I call to mind the altar calls of the Evangelicals, based upon emotional appeal and fear tactics- and yet you have the nerve to accuse others of hidden agendas and "giving a little at a time."

And I might mention the self-appointed teachers/elders who assure everyone who's right and who is not, why and when, based upon their interpretation of the buy bull. I have seen the horrors of that particular approach played out on this forum.[/quote:a9763]

Is this how you justify marian worship or is this a diversion tactic? [/quote:a9763]
That's two different questions:
1. I don't worship Mary, and that a lame strawman- but hey, you can only throw what mud you have at hand, right?
2. Yes, you are using a diversion tactic. It's called mudslinging.

Giving people an opportunity to place their faith in Jesus Christ at the end of a service is hardly a manipulation. It is straight forward and spelled out. It is giving those people who have been convicted of the truth by the Holy Spirit an opportunity to call on the Name of Jesus Christ for salvation and confess Him in front of others, all of which is Biblically sound.

What a crock: Evangelical crusade methods are essentially the same employed by Hitler and by infomercials. It is not informed decisions that are being made- it is a deal being closed. Data from Evangelical crusades demonstrates an abysmal continuance rate for those who 'confess Him.'

The message is "you can have peace with God tonight" when it ought to be "come and follow Him- and don't forget to pick up your cross."

Of course I guess we should just baptize them as babies and call on Mary to watch over them and deliver them to heaven when the time is right. :roll:

Placing baptized babies into families is the subject of discussion among Evangelicals. That is to say, they recognize the need for mentorship and discipling, so new converts are, in some places, matched up with people who will guide them through their growth as believers.

To this I say 'well done.'

Just as we guide our baptized babies through their Christian growth. Mine have entire chapters of scripture committed to memory, and know the history and the theology of their Church. They also know the history and theology of other churches.

Yes, we teach them reverence for elders, the saints, church, Mary, each other, and most of all, God. My children serve at the Mission, serve at the Nursing Home, go on missions, teach Sunday School (my eldest) and reach out to our neighbors.

What were you saying about Mary?

Did I mention that we pray together as a family daily, that my 7 year old knows the Lord's prayer in English and Greek, or that my 9 year old comes with me every Sunday 90 minutes before service so that we can pray together?

Thanks be to God.


You should not speak of things you know not.

 

[fiat]

What was asked was the whereabouts of the Catholic "code-book." I didn't ask you to believe what was in the Catechism, but I did ask you, if you honestly want to know what the Church teaches to read it. I KNOW Catholicism is bewildering. I grew up Protestant and never, ever would have become or stayed Catholic were it not for the fact that I found that it was truth. Let me also tell you that the real Catholicism (the one spelled out in the Catechism complete with TONS of Scripture references, typologies, writings of the ECF's, etc) is a lot less frightening than the one based on pictures and misapplied verses of Revelation. I don't expect you to read the Catechism and believe it (conversion is entirely God's business), but I do ask you as a Christian obviously concerned with the souls of Catholics to base your arguments on something other than falsehood and speculation. That is what charity requires.

 

[fiat]

PS Orthodox Catholic, your children are blessed with a good dad.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

PS Orthodox Catholic, your children are blessed with a good dad.

Thank you- you are very gracious to say so. May God show mercy on my children for my shortcomings, and may God return unto you the blessing of encouragement.

James

 

[Dave...]

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,

or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,

nor serve them:

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


Isaiah 44:44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.

44:10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

44:11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.

44:12 The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is faint.

44:13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.

44:14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.

44:15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

44:16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:

44:17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

44:19 And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

[quote="Lyric's Dad":6d7d9][quote="Orthodox Christian":6d7d9][quote="Lyric's Dad":6d7d9]

I would point you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which Church teachings are spelled out for the world to see. It's not that Catholics "spin" things, so much as words are put in our mouths and our actions are interpreted for us.

And the mormons say to let the elders come over and tell you what they truly believe also. Doesn't make it one bit right and you won't learn all you need to know in those first lessons. You will learn more and more of the horrors of their religion as you go along. Kind of the old dunk em first attitude of giving a little at a time so you can wrap them up firm. The catechism is no different.

I call to mind the altar calls of the Evangelicals, based upon emotional appeal and fear tactics- and yet you have the nerve to accuse others of hidden agendas and "giving a little at a time."

And I might mention the self-appointed teachers/elders who assure everyone who's right and who is not, why and when, based upon their interpretation of the buy bull. I have seen the horrors of that particular approach played out on this forum.[/quote:6d7d9]

Is this how you justify marian worship or is this a diversion tactic? [/quote:6d7d9]
That's two different questions:
1. I don't worship Mary, and that a lame strawman- but hey, you can only throw what mud you have at hand, right?
2. Yes, you are using a diversion tactic. It's called mudslinging.

Giving people an opportunity to place their faith in Jesus Christ at the end of a service is hardly a manipulation. It is straight forward and spelled out. It is giving those people who have been convicted of the truth by the Holy Spirit an opportunity to call on the Name of Jesus Christ for salvation and confess Him in front of others, all of which is Biblically sound.

What a crock: Evangelical crusade methods are essentially the same employed by Hitler and by infomercials. It is not informed decisions that are being made- it is a deal being closed. Data from Evangelical crusades demonstrates an abysmal continuance rate for those who 'confess Him.'

The message is "you can have peace with God tonight" when it ought to be "come and follow Him- and don't forget to pick up your cross."

Of course I guess we should just baptize them as babies and call on Mary to watch over them and deliver them to heaven when the time is right. :roll:

Placing baptized babies into families is the subject of discussion among Evangelicals. That is to say, they recognize the need for mentorship and discipling, so new converts are, in some places, matched up with people who will guide them through their growth as believers.

To this I say 'well done.'

Just as we guide our baptized babies through their Christian growth. Mine have entire chapters of scripture committed to memory, and know the history and the theology of their Church. They also know the history and theology of other churches.

Yes, we teach them reverence for elders, the saints, church, Mary, each other, and most of all, God. My children serve at the Mission, serve at the Nursing Home, go on missions, teach Sunday School (my eldest) and reach out to our neighbors.

What were you saying about Mary?

Did I mention that we pray together as a family daily, that my 7 year old knows the Lord's prayer in English and Greek, or that my 9 year old comes with me every Sunday 90 minutes before service so that we can pray together?

Thanks be to God.


You should not speak of things you know not.[/quote:6d7d9]More diversion. Marian worship is a reality and I have yet to be in a service in my Church where someone makes a decision for Christ that they are not set up with people to disciple them.

Tell me, how does the infant make their decision for Christ?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

What was asked was the whereabouts of the Catholic "code-book." I didn't ask you to believe what was in the Catechism, but I did ask you, if you honestly want to know what the Church teaches to read it. I KNOW Catholicism is bewildering. I grew up Protestant and never, ever would have become or stayed Catholic were it not for the fact that I found that it was truth. Let me also tell you that the real Catholicism (the one spelled out in the Catechism complete with TONS of Scripture references, typologies, writings of the ECF's, etc) is a lot less frightening than the one based on pictures and misapplied verses of Revelation. I don't expect you to read the Catechism and believe it (conversion is entirely God's business), but I do ask you as a Christian obviously concerned with the souls of Catholics to base your arguments on something other than falsehood and speculation. That is what charity requires.

And what I am saying is that this is the exact same thing I hear from mormons and jehovah's witnesses. They say, "don't listen to anyone else that has studied and found our faults. Read our stuff." Sorry, I don't have time in this life to dedicate to things I have already been shown are wrong. I would rather study the Bible then the catholic catechism. I have seen enough to make an informed decision and that is what I have done.

 

[Dave...]

^This is the Protestant version of 'ugly American.'

Jim, do you really mean ugly American, or is this code for handsome Canadian?

Q/"Why don't they do things and say things in a way I understand?"
A/ "Cuz the world does not revolve around you and your understanding."

But my world does revolve around God's word. I trust His word to expose every false teaching. I do not worship Mary, just like you claim not to. But I also don't hang pictures of Mary in my house with nail holes through her palms. I don't have statues of images, I don't pray to them, bow down to them, light candles around them and give every appearance that I am worshipping them, when I claim not to be. This is simple. Did you know that it is a sin even to give the appearance of sinning? Tell me why people flock to those images of Mary? Certainly the Catholic church would set them straight on these things? Grilled cheese anyone?

Do you kiss your wife/kids?

Not married. Why do you compair statues to people? Would the destruction of a statue be murder?

Do you ever attend parades?

No, I hate parades.

Do you have an image of Jesus or the cross anywhere in your house or church?

No, no cross, nothing.

Are you, in fact, sir, an idolater?

Jumping the gun, here Jim?

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,

or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,

nor serve them:

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Dave

 

[Orthodox Christian]

More diversion. Marian worship is a reality

As I said, I don't worship Mary. You are not only showing poor form as a debater here- you are skirting the ToS with your vapid argumentation.
OC: "No, I don't"
LD: "Yes, you do."

Gimme a break

and I have yet to be in a service in my Church where someone makes a decision for Christ that they are not set up with people to disciple them.

Good. Now try to tell me that this is the norm in Evangelical Christianity.

Tell me, how does the infant make their decision for Christ?

You make it sound like a one-time deal: but as we know, that's what you anabaptists seem to believe. As if your understanding mediates the grace of God- what utter Pelagianism.

My infants are making their decisions toward Christ every day, as I noted-or did that not get through your thick wall of denial?