The week of the Passion

[Goinheix]

Thanks

I understand your dilema. Christ is our Passover Lamb and theologist understand that it was necessary to be crucified the day the Passover lamb is slain; that is the Nisan 14th. At the other hand we have the three synoptics telling us that the day the Passover lamb is slain, Jesus finish it alive and free; and that is the Nisan 14th. For making the thing more difficult is John telling us that Jesus was crucified on a preparation day for a High Sabbath of Passover; and we (actualy you) undertand that refers to the Nisan 14th.

Now I ask you to pay attention and do your cheking. Unfortunately I have to warn you about reading other authors since they dont understand the issue well.

Check the synoptics. The synoptics are christal clear and out of any doubt that the Fest know as Passover is the same and no other than Unleavened Bread. The synoptics enfasice that both are names for the same and one Fest. This is internal evidence not only biblical but from the authors of the Gospels we are studying. We have to be in the same tune they are when they wrote the Gospels.
Besides the Gospels internal evidence, we have internal evidence in Moses. Despite what happened the day Israel left Egypt, Moses has give specific rules concerning how to celebrate Passover/Unleavened Bread. Discussing how Moses concider that Fest as one and lasting a full week is a study for you to do. If it is necesary, I will give you my understandings.
We have the Gospels and the Moses internal evidence. But we also have external evidence since the Jew have two ways to understand that/those fest(s). Some Jew understand it as one Fest, and some other understand it as two. Modern Jew celebrate Passover as a 8 day fest.

If we accept the Passover as a full week Fest, then for Jesus to be our Passover Lamb it was enough to be crucified any day during the Passover week.

But John is not saying that Jesus was crucified any day; he pinpoint a preparation day for a High Sabbath of Passover.

The key is that according to Moses it is two High Sabbath on Passover: the 15th and the 21st of Nisan; first and last days of the Fest. If we know by the synoptics that Jesus ended the 14th alive and free; the only conclusion shall be that he was crucified on the 20th, the only preparation day possible.

The big question is: what did hapens between the arrest on the 15th and the crucifixion on the 20th? And this is what I am trying to explain with the help of the four Gospels.

I did warn you of reading other authors. The problem with them is that they are blind, concidering the crucifixion to happens same day of the arrest. Because they are restricted with that concept is that they force things and fabricate arguments and explanatios. This is the problem with them.

Then the question is: was Jesus crucified the same day of his arrest? My answer is not. There is enough evidence to state that Jesus was not crucified in the same morning. For example: Jesus was before pilates by noon, and the trial continued after that hour... how is that Jesus was crucified by 9am? All explanations are false (and I can prove it), being the logic answer that he was crucified next morning. And there is some more clues as how many times did the Sun rise. But this will be discussed at its time.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I can sense your frustration, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that if it was some other event, they would know how to count to 3 correctly, including that of Jonah, but when it involved Christ, 3 days and 3 nights magically means something else. I hear ya. Again, back to post 101 the model I presented is probably yours as well, and is the only one that prophectically fits the timing and the feasts. In short, the model was derived from the facts, not some per-conceived idea where the bible is twisted and re-interpreted to fit the model.

And yes, as I stated earlier, the 12 hours in a day Christ mentioned was an allusion to the way they kept time back then, the hemispherium sundial, but I get a feeling that there's those who don't know Jack-splat about sundials or calendars, or the first thing about them when mentioning them, but are then going to turn around and tell you how to keep a calendar of events. The calendars and sundials had everything to do with time-keeping but they are left out like they are not important. That's like trying to tell someone how to fix a car without using tools. :halo

I don't know that I would call it frustration. Perhaps a little bit in the sense that all the evidence isn't being considered. Trust me though, I am not as frustrated as others! I'm not cocky either, just confident in my research.

Like I said, I wish to be done with this... But there is one thing that still should be addressed. I'll leave it to everyone to hash out.... There has been a lot of talk about "30 AD". It has got to be tough to pinpoint a single day that happened almost 2000 years ago, especially with the knowledge that the "calandar" has been adjusted so many times. I have my research on this too. I don't put much stock in it, because we are talking about pinpointing one day and even hours of that day when it is known that adjustments have been made to the calandar in the last 2000 years. Being a hair off changes things dramatically. I don't base my beliefs on any research on the history of the calandar, but on what the Bible itself says. However, about that "30 AD".

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm

Please have a look at this link. According to it Passover did occur on Friday in 30 AD. However, consider rival years. Those that want to say Jesus died on Friday also have support, because in 33 AD the passover occured on Saturday. I, believing that Christ was crucified on Wednesday, also have support in that the passover was on Thursday in the year 34 AD. So while there is a lot of focus on "30 AD", I don't see anyone questioning if that was the actual year. Personally I believe that 33 or 34 AD are just as plausible (If not more so) than 30 AD.

So this was done by the U.S. Navy, and those folks are pretty particular in getting things right. It's not like we have a fella living in his mother's basement sucking down Mountain Dews and smoking cigarettes doing the research. Yet, I can't help to think that a small error throws this conversation off in that we are talking about pinpointing a single day in a history that dates back 2000 years. As thorough as the Navy may be, perhaps they missed something!

My point is that if you look at 30 AD, why isn't anyone looking at 33 or 34 AD? Yet, in the end I'm not relying on Man's research even if it is the U.S. Navy or anyone else. I'm relying on what the Bible says. It just so happens that 34 AD lines up with it according to the research.

I'll let you folks hash that out.

I'll let you know my opinion. Personally I believe it the death of Yeshua was 34AD. This is the year Sir Isaac Newton (the guy in my avatar ) believed it was, and both he and the US Naval Observatory believed Passover that year happened in April (on a Thursday). However, I believe Nisan 14th could have been March 24 of that year if the barley was seen early, as it has been this year. Of course NOBODY can prove it. It's just in the realm of possibility. Notice March 22 is on a Monday on that chart so March 24 is on a Wednesday. This was at full moon also and the sighted moon was two weeks earlier (I worked that out already).

Additionally, I go by other astronomical clues namely Revelation 12 and the woman, which indicates that Yeshua was born at the feast of Trumpets and died at Passover, living 12,240 days (414.5 lunar cycles and exactly 34 prophetic years). The astronomical position at the birth or Christ (Revelation 12) can only occur in mid September, so 12,240 days later will be in late March. Plus... he had to be crucified on a Wednesday. With all these mathematical facts, I concluded that in the year 26- 36 AD as a window commonly held, only 34AD was possible.

It's interesting to note that even the scientists like my favorite Isaac Newton overlooked the possibily to a late March Passover in 34AD especially since we do not know when the barley was seen, but was indeed possible. Their minds were apparently locked solely by calculation and algorithms, and sometimes I wonder if Yahweh deliberately did that to blind people.

I won't go into detail now, but besides historical references, my timeline is influenced by the bible, the stellar position in Revelation 12, and the Great Pyramid as I am what some like to dub those "pyramidiots" but I actually believe there's prophetic timelines in that structure as well. When all these facts are put together, March 34AD works out nicely. I may not be right, but it does work out using this information I mentioned. If I am not privy to some additional information then there may be something else that fits even better. But until then, this is what fits now based on what I do know, so I'll stay open to the year.

 

[Sparkey]

Thanks

I understand your dilema.

Oh, you're welcome. Please understand too that I read every word that is spoken in this thread, sometimes more than once. Oftentimes more than once. You state that you understand my dilemma, and I'm sure you see part of it. Here's another part. That exact same mechanism in me that allows me to be convinced of the possibility you mention while discussing Scripture in the Synoptic Gospels, and saying the "dawn" can mean the dawn of a week and does not have to mean daylight breaking and what I think about when I look at my watch and think, "Ahhhhh... the sun is about to rise, I can hear the birds chirping," nor must it mean that when somebody says "cockcrow" it does not mean that those stupid birds rose early, early in the wee hours of the morning to disturb my slumber, it can also mean a "watch in the night" -- that very same thinking and that process that allows you to convince me that it's possible, also allows other thoughts to be considered and weighed as well.

In the end, I may become convinced. I have in the past. I'm working again toward that end, but it is not a simple thing.

Can we agree that Jesus rose on Sunday? From there, can we know if it was what we call morning or when? Working from that point and then calculating backward 3 days and 3 nights seems easier, doesn't it? I'm pretty sure you will be quick to point to the flaw in my thinking there, but I'll let you do so. In the meantime, have you read what tim-from-pa has posted? Take it from me, I've witnessed his math skills and although I'm no dummy in that area, he is way beyond me. There are quite a few that are way beyond me so I'm not saying he's a genius but if he said he was, I would not doubt it.

It's about seeking and knocking and asking. Keep seeking, and ye shall find. Keep on asking, and it shall be answered. Start knocking in the past, continue knocking through today and into tomorrow and what? It shall be opened. I have what some have called "patience" for this and hope to share that with you.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[Sparkey]

[video=youtube;tJIDS-ge8V8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJIDS-ge8V8[/video]

:yes Hebrews 1:8,9 He is glad of you. Yes, you.

 

[Goinheix]

...

Brother
If we really want to understand how the Pasion hapens (The Holy Spirit gives us four acounts of the facts with many details. That shall be enough to mesure out how much important it is) it it necessary to study it in order. I sugest that we open an specific thread to discuss the day of the week and another treath to discuss the date on the Jew calendar. Those two issues are totaly independent and MUST be adresses separately.
Otherwise, everything will be confusion and sabbotage.

 

[Sparkey]

I sugest that we open an specific thread to discuss the day of the week and another treath to discuss the date on the Jew calendar.

You may open another thread, I like to keep my thoughts in one place so that I can review them later. I'm not convinced that each of the gospel accounts refer to the exact same time. What if there were more than one visit? That's not possible? It sure sounds like that's what the Bible is discussing.

[Mat 28:1-8 KJV] 1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men]. 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

[Mark 16:1-9 KJV] 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. 7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. 8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any [man]; for they were afraid. 9 Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

[Luke 24:1-12 KJV] 1 Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: 5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down [their] faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary [the mother] of James, and other [women that were] with them, which told these things unto the apostles. 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. 12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

[Jhn 20:1-18 KJV] 1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. 3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. 4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. 5 And he stooping down, [and looking in], saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. 6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home. 11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, [and looked] into the sepulchre, 12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her.

Does this sound like the exact same event to you? Really?

The way I figure it is that the stone was rolled away once and only once. Can't imagine the idea behind rolling it away, rolling it back, rolling it away again. No, seems reasonable that the stone in front of the tomb was rolled away once and only once. That means that the account we see in Matthew is speaking about the time when the stone was rolled away; Mary had entered immediately after. The tomb was empty. It's a little puzzling when we read Mark's account and the same Mary approaches (now with two others) and the stone is rolled away. Mark makes a very definitive statement that Jesus appeared first to Mary at the end of the quoted section. He also declares that Jesus rose early on the first day of the week.

I recall from my study quite awhile ago looking at every "Mary" that is mentioned in the New Testament. We (my study partner and I) also looked as deep as we were able at what the Greek said in the four gospels while speaking of the various visits to the tomb. That's when my friend had his "revelation" or if you'd rather, when the light went on. I don't recall the specifics, have mentioned emailing him and asking for the documentation, but do recall that it made sense to me, and you might already know that in these types of things, that's not something that I say too often.

It is also of interest to note the "Running of Peter" which I've quoted above from the Good News of John. This "running Peter" is also seen in Luke 24:12 but there is no mention of another getting there first in the account of Luke. Some have looked at this to surmise that John had read Luke's account and had been influenced by it, but I believe that every word was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I wish I spoke ancient Greek and Hebrew. That would make the whole thing easier, for now it is okay to understand that all things will be made clear.

 

[Sparkey]

I am still available to this thread and will continue in private study on the matter if there are no further posts.

He is Risen!​

Here is the unfinished work so far:

I'm willing to slide the highlighted section to comply with Scripture, of course!
Can also add a column to show the "Jewish Calendar" day of the Week if that's helpful.

 

[Sparkey]

Could one of the Mary's be Mary Magdelene?

It most definitely was. That fact is one of the most confirmed parts of these narratives. And when we consider who that Mary is the story broadens.