The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[feileadhmor]

You're right,,,but knowing something in advance does not cause it to happen.

P.S. Welcome to the forum!

No, but God still created people knowing He was creating them for Hell. He knew in advance.

How did God know? In scripture and Christian theology it is readily accepted that God doesn't "learn" but "knows all things."

 

[feileadhmor]

You may not be arguing for calvinism,,,but your beliefs are reformed beliefs.
If not...what are we debating??

Calvin taught the following....do you agree?

T.U.L.I.P.

T Man is born TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
U God chooses who will be saved UNCONDITIONALLY (based on nothing at all)
L LIMITED ATONEMENT - Jesus died only for the elect..chosen by God.
I IRRISISTABLE GRACE - The Holy Spirit gives grace for one to become saved which cannot be resisted by the person.
P PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - Those that God has chosen will be saved till the end.


It sound as though you would agree with all...maybe not.

All of Calvinism (the reformed faith) is based on two theories:
1. Man is born totally depraved and unable to come to a saving knowledge of God unless God forces him to.
2. Man has no free will to choose to be saved...and thus God must save whom He will.

Comments?


Agreed.



What you have said that would make God unjust is the fact that man cannot come to salvation unless God gives him that grace.

If God does not involve me in my salvation and I have no choice as to whether or not I want to love and serve Him...
HOW could God be just in sending me to hell if I'm one of those looked over?

Justice means giving to a person what that person deserves.
HOW could I deserve hell if it's God that predestined my whole life, including the fact that He did not choose me to know Him?



Calvinists always bring up the cross. Please could we not discuss this?
Here's why?

God PREDESTINED the cross.
He knew man would fail...
Adam disobeyed God.
He caused all of mankind to fall.
Jesus, the 2nd Adam was a plan by God by which we could be saved.
If it's a PLAN...then it naturally had to be predestined.

I have no problem with the above.

However, I do not believe that God predestined everything that will ever happen because it would mean that God causes us to sin
and thus is sinning Himself...this is impossible.

As to every man deserving hell....
Agreed.

But those who choose Christ will not go to hell...
and herein lies the justice of God...
He offers salvation to all who want it.
John 3:16 is the perfect verse for this.

But we also have
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9

God desires all men to be saved.




OK...so you do NOT believe that God predestined EVERYTHING that ever happened or ever will happen?
Of course I believe I sin of my own volition.
I do NOT believe God causes me to sin because God hates sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 1:6
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

Psalm 11:15
The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.


You say that for a will to be free it must be free from any outside influence and that only God has that.
There is no such thing as not having our will influenced by something...this does not mean it's not free.
Our decision for or against something will always be influenced by some outside consideration....
We want to buy a house...can we afford it?

I think you're saying that a free will cannot be COERCED.
This I would agree with.

However, the reformed do believe that our will is coerced....it's call compatible free will and means that God CAUSES
OUR will to be in conformation with HIS will...this is NOT free will as man understands it to be.

This entire post is full of false information. #fakenews

 

[SolaScriptura]

Why would God create people knowing in advance they would reject Him and were being created ONLY to be sent to Hell for all eternity? There is no way out of this problem Sola, God knows all things all the time, He doesn't "learn" them, God is all knowing - God had to know in advance who would accept or reject Him.

no one is denying God KNOWING all things. This does not mean that He CAUSES or ORDAINS all things! I could KNOW of a murder to take place, this does not mean that I am the murderer!

 

[SolaScriptura]

This entire post is full of false information. #fakenews

is your name Donald?

 

[SolaScriptura]

No, but God still created people knowing He was creating them for Hell. He knew in advance.

How did God know? In scripture and Christian theology it is readily accepted that God doesn't "learn" but "knows all things."

there is a DIFFERENCE between KNOWING and DOING!!!

 

[SolaScriptura]

I just had a thought (mostly because I have not paid the subject enough thought yet):

What if...mankind has a sinful nature, and if God had held back man from sinning, the sinful nature would still be there? Such as (an example): a man tries to sleep with a married woman. The woman says, "Not in a million years." The man did not commit the sin, but still has the sinful nature.

What if God had allowed man to carry through on his sin, so as to highlight his sinful nature; and conversely, God's lack of it? I don't really know what "for God's glory" even means--as if God has any need to impress a race of sinners whom He created himself.

But what if that is all that was intended to be said? Man has a sinful nature, and God thought it fit to allow man to follow through on his sin, so as to make clear that man is sinful, and God is not. God very much had the power to hold man back, but He did not, because it then would not have been as clear that the man is sinful. I have no problem with that. Actually, it makes sense.

much conjecture!

 

[feileadhmor]

no one is denying God KNOWING all things. This does not mean that He CAUSES or ORDAINS all things! I could KNOW of a murder to take place, this does not mean that I am the murderer!

Good. So, are you an open theist? Do you believe God learns? What does God know that He learned from His creation?

 

[feileadhmor]

is your name Donald?

No, I have better hair.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Good. So, are you an open theist? Do you believe God learns? What does God know that He learned from His creation?

God knows EVERYTHING, He is 100% OMNISCIENT, This does not mean that He CAUSES all things, oterwise He will be the author of sin, which is impossible. God foreknew that Judas would betray Jesus Christ, but He did not CAUSE Judas to betray, but USED this evil deed for His purposes. This is exactly with king Ahab, God did not MAKE or ORDAIN the lying spirit, but ALLOWED this to take place, as He does with sin in the world, without being the CAUSE!

 

[Fastfredy0]

no one is denying God KNOWING all things. This does not mean that He CAUSES or ORDAINS all things!

I know you hate answering questions ...but how does God know all things keeping in mind His creation was Nothing at one time? .... it's not like He can ask NOTHING what it will do as you can't determine something from nothing.

Expects NO ANSWER as usual.

 

[Delete_me]

much conjecture!

It's called staying humble.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I know you hate answering questions ...but how does God know all things keeping in mind His creation was Nothing at one time? .... it's not like He can ask NOTHING what it will do as you can't determine something from nothing.

Expects NO ANSWER as usual.

so you must believe that God is the AUTHOR and CAUSE of sins!

 

[Delete_me]

Think of your statement above but put free will in the mix....
Do we have free will to sin or not?

If God "held us back" from sinning...we wouldn't have free will.

I know. But even with a free will, have you ever had the intent to sin, but circumstances beyond your control prevented it? Tried to break into a car, but it was locked? View pornography, but it wasn't there, or the remote didn't work? Wanted to hurt someone, but they weren't there, or there were witnesses?

Nonetheless, the exact wording of the confession, "It pleased God...", I don't think perfectly lines up with the OP's interpretation of it. Which can happen, if the English language evolves for a hundred years after it was first written, or if it was translated from another language. "It pleased God..." back then probably does not equate to "It is pleasing to God..." now.

 

[Fastfredy0]

so you must believe that God is the AUTHOR and CAUSE of sins!

...and my fifth question to you; yet no answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, but God still created people knowing He was creating them for Hell. He knew in advance.

How did God know? In scripture and Christian theology it is readily accepted that God doesn't "learn" but "knows all things."

Again,
God knows all things.

I know it's going to rain tomorrow.
Am I causing it to rain?

 

[SolaScriptura]

...and my fifth question to you; yet no answer.

Answer has always been in the OP. go back and read it again

 

[GodsGrace]

I know. But even with a free will, have you ever had the intent to sin, but circumstances beyond your control prevented it? Tried to break into a car, but it was locked? View pornography, but it wasn't there, or the remote didn't work? Wanted to hurt someone, but they weren't there, or there were witnesses?

Nonetheless, the exact wording of the confession, "It pleased God...", I don't think perfectly lines up with the OP's interpretation of it. Which can happen, if the English language evolves for a hundred years after it was first written, or if it was translated from another language. "It pleased God..." back then probably does not equate to "It is pleasing to God..." now.

I agree with you re what IT PLEASED GOD means.

It just means that God was allowing something to happen, not that He was happy about it.

It's the rest of the statement that causes the problem that SolaScriptura is presenting
Regarding calvinism being heretical.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree with you re what IT PLEASED GOD means.

It just means that God was allowing something to happen, not that He was happy about it.

It's the rest of the statement that causes the problem that SolaScriptura is presenting
Regarding calvinism being heretical.

wondering,

What's your understanding of the difference between recognizing something as false teaching and something being heretical?

Oz

 

[Shema]

Do you know why God sent man out of the garden? Read Genesis 3:22-23

"And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."

Human is self centered. He wants more and more and more for himself (the Masterplan of the serpent is to test man and use his weakness). God sees man's weakness will cripple the purpose of His creation (cf Genesis 1:26) as to why He banished man out of His garden to till the earth (that is to work things out for himself). A man cannot be self centered and care less about God's commands 'not to eat the forbidden fruit' and then also want to have the effrontery to stay in the Garden of the Lord to enjoy finished works of God Abundant resources for free Genesis 2:17. God said "....when you eat from it (the forbidden tree) you will certainly die.” they did and He sent them out to hustle the ground. God is Holy!

Don't do blasphemy ...there was an agreement which man could not fulfill. God created man to lead and decide otherwise face consequences of His decisions that is why He did not make attempt to interfere in man's decisions. He could have made them like an angel to follow His orders but he made man not angels. Read Psalm 8:6

The serpent told the woman "you will not certainly die"... The woman lack understanding of the death God was talking about...

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge..

Which one is the bigger death... To die naturally or to be sent out of paradise?
Jesus came to fight the insufficiency of knowledge of man to avert them being used by the devil as seen today. He said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

Touch down the base: God is good and faithful. He will never compromise His Character because of anything or anyone. He made man and made all things for man but just only one command, man failed to obey. Who among you think that the Holy God should compromise His personality to clean man's mess even when He knows all things (that man messed up).

Put this down if anyone has forgotten:

....“The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.” Job 28:28

 

[Quantrill]

You may not be arguing for calvinism,,,but your beliefs are reformed beliefs.
If not...what are we debating??

Calvin taught the following....do you agree?

T.U.L.I.P.

T Man is born TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
U God chooses who will be saved UNCONDITIONALLY (based on nothing at all)
L LIMITED ATONEMENT - Jesus died only for the elect..chosen by God.
I IRRISISTABLE GRACE - The Holy Spirit gives grace for one to become saved which cannot be resisted by the person.
P PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - Those that God has chosen will be saved till the end.


It sound as though you would agree with all...maybe not.

All of Calvinism (the reformed faith) is based on two theories:
1. Man is born totally depraved and unable to come to a saving knowledge of God unless God forces him to.
2. Man has no free will to choose to be saved...and thus God must save whom He will.

Comments?


Agreed.



What you have said that would make God unjust is the fact that man cannot come to salvation unless God gives him that grace.

If God does not involve me in my salvation and I have no choice as to whether or not I want to love and serve Him...
HOW could God be just in sending me to hell if I'm one of those looked over?

Justice means giving to a person what that person deserves.
HOW could I deserve hell if it's God that predestined my whole life, including the fact that He did not choose me to know Him?



Calvinists always bring up the cross. Please could we not discuss this?
Here's why?

God PREDESTINED the cross.
He knew man would fail...
Adam disobeyed God.
He caused all of mankind to fall.
Jesus, the 2nd Adam was a plan by God by which we could be saved.
If it's a PLAN...then it naturally had to be predestined.

I have no problem with the above.

However, I do not believe that God predestined everything that will ever happen because it would mean that God causes us to sin
and thus is sinning Himself...this is impossible.

As to every man deserving hell....
Agreed.

But those who choose Christ will not go to hell...
and herein lies the justice of God...
He offers salvation to all who want it.
John 3:16 is the perfect verse for this.

But we also have
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9

God desires all men to be saved.




OK...so you do NOT believe that God predestined EVERYTHING that ever happened or ever will happen?
Of course I believe I sin of my own volition.
I do NOT believe God causes me to sin because God hates sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 1:6
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

Psalm 11:15
The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.


You say that for a will to be free it must be free from any outside influence and that only God has that.
There is no such thing as not having our will influenced by something...this does not mean it's not free.
Our decision for or against something will always be influenced by some outside consideration....
We want to buy a house...can we afford it?

I think you're saying that a free will cannot be COERCED.
This I would agree with.

However, the reformed do believe that our will is coerced....it's call compatible free will and means that God CAUSES
OUR will to be in conformation with HIS will...this is NOT free will as man understands it to be.

I came in when SolaScriptura said in post #(16) that God didn't plan the fall of Adam and that the sin of man was not part of His plan to bring glory to Himself.

Yes, I know what Tulip is and that Calvin taught it. I don't know what all else he taught, as I really haven't studied Calvin at all. I'm sure we agree in some areas and there are areas we don't agree.

The only one in Tulip that I would be 'totally' against would be limited atonement. But there are things in the others that would also need some explanation. As to the 'Reformed Faith' it is a bit too legalistic for me.

No, no comments. I am not trying to defend or prosecute Calvinism.

God doesn't look anyone over. He knows everyone. You seem to have a very limited understanding of God's election. God isn't looking down and saying, oh I like this one and this one. But this one I don't. So He just chooses randomly. Elementary.

When Adam and Eve fell, another 'seed' line was produced within the human race. The seed of the serpent. (Gen. 3:15) In other words, when God created Adam and Eve and made them to procreate, He knew those who He made them for, to be born by them, would be His sons and daughters. But at the fall, the serpents seed now travels through the human race also. We don't know, but God knows who they are. (John 8:23) (John 10:26) God knows those Who are 'of Him'. And He knows those not 'of Him'. Those who are born into Adams race and 'of Him', are His lost sheep. Those that are not 'of Him' and born into Adams race, are not lost as they were never His to lose. They are perfectly at home in this world of whom satan their father is the prince of.

God would be just in sending all to Hell, those that are of Him and those not of Him. But He saves his own. And that is not unjust. Those who are not of Him, don't want Him. They have a different father, satan. They don't want Hell, but Heaven would be Hell for them also. They are not of God.

Well, quit bringing up God's injustice for either giving or not giving what man deserved, if you don't want to hear about the Cross. I asked you questions concerning the justice of it. Concerning what man really deserved, what Christ deserved. Those were telling...weren't they?

Then you agree that the fall of Man was part of the plan of God. If it's not a plan, then God's response is just a reaction by God to something outside of His control and will.

I would like to say, and I say this to all when I come across this error. It is a common mistake. You should refer to Christ as the Last Adam only. Not the 2nd Adam. He is never called the 2nd Adam. Only the Last Adam. (1 Cor. 15:45) It's a very important point.

As to 'predestination' I believe that only pertains to the children of God being brought into the sonship of God. God created satan who was the personification of evil. God created man with the ability to sin. It naturally follows that man will sin. God places satan in the garden with Adam and Eve. With the law to break. Is God guilty of sin for creating those? Is that God 'causing me to sin'. That is certainly what we have been arguing. As I keep saying, the Fall of Man was part of the plan of God. And those are all good verses you present. God hates sin.

Because you sin of your own volition, just like everyone does, then you prove that man's 'will' cannot be used to form or create the true sons and daughters of God.

I am saying the only free will is a will with nothing influencing it to a decision. The One with free will, simply exercises His will. That is only God. Man just has a will.

Because man's will can be influenced and coerced, it isn't free will.

Quantrill