The word Rapture is in the Bible

[MisterE]

Yes, some in the Dispensationalist Theology dept. argue that Christ's "appearance" is different from his "secret coming" in the 1st stage. However, George E. Ladd wrote the book "the Blessed Hope" to dispel that myth.

The Church is to wait for and expect Christ's "appearing," and not a "secret rapture of the Church."

Titus 2.11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

One might even argue that Christians are waiting for *both* a "secret Coming" and an "appearing" of Christ? However, Jesus warned his Disciples in his Olivet Discourse about any so-called "secret coming" when he said this....

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Who told you there was such a thing as a "secret" rapture?

 

[RandyK]

Who told you there was such a thing as a "secret" rapture?

Dispensationalists. I've read their many books for about 50 years! ;)

 

[MisterE]

Dispensationalists. I've read their many books for about 50 years! ;)

I don't believe you. Give me two names of Dispensationalists that say the Rapture is a "secret" Rapture.

 

[RandyK]

I don't believe you. Give me two names of Dispensationalists that say the Rapture is a "secret" Rapture.

It doesn't have to be a pejorative. It doesn't matter what one calls it. It is a 2-stage Coming that is taught.

 

[MisterE]

It doesn't have to be a pejorative. It doesn't matter what one calls it. It is a 2-stage Coming that is taught.

I just wanted to call your bluff. I have read your posts and question if you have done studies.

 

[RandyK]

I just wanted to call your bluff. I have read your posts and question if you have done studies.

Well, I guess you failed at that...
It is very common for those, like myself, who refer to a "secret Coming" as the 1st stage of the Coming of Christ. Whether you think it should be characterized as such is besides the point. I don't wish to focus primarily on that because some feel it is an insulting characterization--I think it is fine.

The real point is that the teachers of Pretribulationism generally find that the last stage of the Coming of Christ is a grand appearance with full regalia--it can't be ignored by the world. The Left Behind series and its type tend to write off a sudden disappearance of Christians as something to be ignored.

But the Pretrib Rapturists feel that thinking this so-called "1st stage" will take place without an obvious "appearance of Christ," it may be characterized as just Christ coming as far as the clouds, before catching Christians up. There will be no necessary prophetic signs, such as the revelation of Antichrist, that must precede this phase of Christ's Coming.

Take your pick which internet source you wish to draw upon. All Dispensationalists have the same preliminary stage of Christ's Coming, which I and others characterize as a "secret Coming." We say that because it apparently goes unnoticed for 7 years, or is simply waved away as irrelevant by all except a few of the "Tribulation Saints."

Please quote me from noted Dispensationalists who would deny this? Obviously, *all* Dispensationalists reference this 1st stage in Christ's Coming, which I call a "Secret Coming." They certainly would not all call it a "Secret Coming," as I do.

Again, that was not the point I was making. What you call it is besides the point. All Dispensationalists believe in it, regardless of what they prefer to call it.

 

[RandyK]

Mr. E: I'm not a theologian, but I've taken particular interest in this subject since around 1972. I had been raised in a denomination that was not Dispensational. But when I reached late adolescence I came under the influence of Dispensationalists, and I accepted that teaching.

My brother convinced me to memorize Scriptures, and one book of the Bible I memorized was 2 Thessalonians. To my shock Paul was teaching Postribulationism, that Christ's Coming is to bring destruction to Antichrist following his revelation. I've been strongly in favor of Postribulationism ever since.

I did have some doubts when I lived for a few years in S. CA. I had been listening to the daily radio broadcasts of Chuck Smith from Costa Mesa, and I doubted whether I could be right and he be wrong. I read his commentary on Revelation, which forced me to pray and study.

I visited a bookstore belonging to Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, which had a School of Theology. (Incidentally, Hal Lindsey taught Sunday School there.) A stranger walked up to me and volunteered to help me, as I sought out understanding over this dispute.

The church was strongly Pretribulational, but this stranger pointed me to two books, Ladd's "The Blessed Hope," and Gundry's "The Church and the Tribulation. I eventually came to the conclusion that I was doubting my own eyes, and decided to believe what I already understood, that Christ's Coming will take place at the very end of the age, to destroy Antichrist.

So since that time I've read a lot of materials on this subject, and have long since thrown away many of the books I've read, both Pretrib and Postrib. I have, however, been discussing this subject on a number of different online forums over the last 20 years.

I know good men like Pat Robertson and Walter Martin were convinced Postribulationists. I know that Hal Lindsay and John Walvoord were strong advocates for Pretribulationsim. I went completely through one of Walvoord's treatment of the subject, and answered (for myself) every single point he made in the book.

I could go on. It is of personal interest to me. But I don't have a bloated view of myself, without denying my credibility on the subject. The bluff you're trying to call on me is clearly your own self-made "bluff." Well, maybe you think it's just a semi-informed "guess?"

But everything I'm telling you here is true, although I fully admit I'm not a theologian. I'll be happy to answer any point you may wish to make?

 

[RandyK]

Part 1
Ricky, a Pretrib friend, approached me with some online arguments for the "Rapture." I responded quickly, as follows...

What is the Rapture of the Church? https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

Response: Nobody here is questioning the "rapture of the Church," to take place at Christ's Coming. The question concerning us is the *timing* of this event. Historically, the "Rapture" is viewed as taking place at Christ's 2nd Coming. Dispensationalists today, ie followers of John N. Darby, believe that the 2nd Coming takes place by a strained definition, separating a "secret coming for the Church" from the "2nd Coming" itself where the Church comes back with Christ from heaven in a glorious, manifest way.

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period.

Response: This is not proven. While it is true that God's final Judgment is not directed at believers it is also true that believers are here on earth during times when God has poured out His wrath on unbelievers. Our common dwelling on earth between believers and unbelievers necessitates that all experience some of the negative effects of God's wrath, when it is poured out on unbelievers.

For example, Noah and Lot were rescued from the judgments of their era, but they did experience some of the side effects of their deliverance on earth. On the other hand, the Prophet Jeremiah had his reputation salvaged during his ordeal in Jerusalem, but was not spared persecution or death during the time of God's wrath being poured out upon Israel. In no case, is any saint in the Bible delivered from tribulation on earth unless it is at the end of their lives or ministry.

The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

Response: Here the order is quite clear. The dead in Christ have to be resurrected before the Rapture of the Church can be experienced. If the resurrection of the Christians takes place at the end of the age, ie at the 2nd Coming, then the Rapture of the Church may *not* be "Pre-Tribulational." It is when Christ returns to save those persecuted and martyred by Antichrist that the resurrection of the saints takes place. It is therefore at that very time that the Rapture of the Church takes place.

1) Christ returns on last day of age to raised Christians martyred by Antichrist from the dead.
2) Rapture of the Church *follows* this resurrection of martyrs killed during the "Tribulation."

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

Response: The idea that Christ comes "secretly" to remove the Church in the clouds is a misrepresentation of what this meant in light of Daniel 7. In that passage Daniel presents the Son of Man as coming with the clouds, indicating he is coming to establish God's Kingdom on earth. The Son of Man does not take his people up to the clouds to remain there, but only to transform them into a heavenly army to participate in his Coming. All of this takes place in the same instance.

 

[RandyK]

Part 2

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

Response: Paul called his doctrines a "mystery" because it had not yet been shown, in the OT period, how God would include pagan nations in His "People." Neither was it made clear how God would get past human sin to include us in the glorification of His Son. That became apparent when Christ forgave his People on the cross, and promised them resurrection from the dead and participation in his own sinless nature. That is what the Communion represents, a participation in the Divine Nature of Christ.

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage one another with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

Response: Those who argue for a "Secret Rapture" who then would deny anybody the responsibility of rebuttal are not being fair. We are encouraged in Scriptures to "test everything."

What is the Concept of a Secret Rapture? https://www.gotquestions.org/secret-rapture.html

The secret rapture—usually just called the rapture of the church—is the idea that Christ will come to take believers out of the world before His return with them at the second coming. The secret rapture is “secret” in that no one will see Jesus coming except believers; this is in contrast to the second coming of Christ after the tribulation, when “every eye will see him” (Revelation 1:7). There is considerable disagreement among Christians regarding the timing of the secret rapture. Some believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, which occurs before the beginning of the seven-year tribulation. Others hold to a mid-tribulation rapture, and still others to a post-tribulation timing.

Response: The assertion that Christ will come for his Church "secretly" is not in Scriptures at all. The idea of a "2-stage" Coming of Christ is unbiblical. Christ is depicted as Coming, in Dan 7, as the Son of Man from heaven, descending to earth in order to establish God's Kingdom on earth. Jesus referred to this as the "last day" of the age.

Secret rapture is a term frequently used as a pejorative by those who deny the idea that the rapture of the church is separate from the second coming of Christ. Those who believe the rapture and the second coming are one and the same event often use the term secret rapture in derision and refer to those who believe in the rapture as “rapturists.”

Response: If non-biblical arguments are being used to "assert things," rather than "prove them from Scriptures, then such assertions should be treated "derisively." They do not deserve a place in Christian teaching.

“One-coming believers” who deny the rapture put themselves in conflict with the Bible and biblical scholarship, as well as the majority of the evangelical world. Among the arguments they pose are that the word rapture doesn’t appear in the Bible. While it is true that the English word rapture doesn’t appear, the concept of the rapture of the church is certainly present.

Response: This is a diversion. Nobody is arguing the word "rapture" in the Bible. The argument is whether a "Pretrib Rapture" is being taught in the Bible. It is not.

Neither is Pretribulationism the standard Evangelical belief in the Christian world. Evangelicalism began with the Protestant Reformation, and Pretribulationism did not exist until hundreds of years later in the United Kingdom under the teaching of John N. Darby. It was exported to the US by his friends who were interested in Futurism, and in particular by his association with Scofield who included Pretribulational doctrine in his popular Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensationalism has therefore filled an important place of interest in Christians who want to understand the "endtimes."

First Thessalonians 4:16–17 (the definitive passage on the rapture of the church) says that the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive and remain will be “caught up.” The word rapture is derived from rapio (“to catch up or snatch away”), a form of which is found in the Latin Vulgate Bible. To say the rapture won’t happen because the word isn’t found in Scripture is a specious argument. The phrase second coming isn’t found in the Bible, either, but the reality of it certainly is.

Response: What is ignored here is that little phrase "the Lord will descend from heaven." If Jesus "descends from heaven" he is coming to the earth. You can't leave heaven unless you land on the earth!

If so, the Rapture of the Church takes place when Christ emerges from heaven to come to the earth. It is a single event, and not spread out over a period of years!

When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation? https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-tribulation.html

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come.

Response: This is not true. This is purely conjecture, and it doesn't make sense. A 70 Weeks period was established to lead to an end point at the end of the 70 Weeks. To extend this period into the future makes no sense.

The 70 Weeks was intended to lead to the death of Christ, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which took place in 70 AD. There is no future element to the 70 Weeks prophecy.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Response: That is not said at all. "Wrath," as defined in Scriptures is an expression of divine anger, and saints are often victims of the period of time in which this "wrath" takes place. To keep people from God's "eternal anger" is a given--we are liberated from eternal judgment. But to avoid the problems of tribulation in this life when we are called to live alongside pagans is beyond the scope of God's promises. Jesus said he will keep us from eternal judgment while we live on this present corrupt earth.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth.

Response: The "hour of trial" took place in the time of the Apostle John. Philadelphia was an historical city where Christians had built a Christian community. Sometimes Christians in various places are promised deliverance from certain trials. None of this is all-encompassing to include all Christian experiences in history. And it never involved a Rapture to heaven. The only 2 "raptures to heaven" in the Bible, Enoch and Elijah, were not deliverances, but rather, a testimonial to their faithfulness. It is a reward for the believer, as opposed to an escape hatch. 2 Thes 1 portrays the Coming of Christ for his Church as a vindication, rather than as an "escape hatch."

Will Christians see the Antichrist, or will the rapture occur before then? https://www.gotquestions.org/see-the-antichrist.html

We believe that, after the rapture, the seven-year tribulation period that is described in Daniel and Revelation will begin.

Response: There is no 7 year Tribulation Period mentioned in the Bible at all. The 70th Week of Daniel is *not* a "7 Year Reign of Antichrist!"

Since Christians will be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation, we who are alive during the church age will not see the Antichrist’s rise to power.

Response: There is no Scriptural evidence here that Christians will be raptured before the beginning of the Tribulation. It is simply inserted to be so.

 

[RandyK]

Part 3

The fact that the Antichrist is not revealed until after the rapture is taught in 2 Thessalonians 2. Speaking of the Day of the Lord, Paul writes that the tribulation will not begin until after the Antichrist is already revealed: “That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (verses 3–4).

Response: 2 Thes 2 does *not* teach that the Rapture *precedes* the revelation of Antichrist! In fact, it is quite the opposite--Christ comes for his Church only *after* the Man of Sin is revealed, and ultimately, is destroyed!

Also, the revelation of the Antichrist must come after something else, because right now there is something “holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Response: The "Restrainer" was taught in the Early Church to represent the Roman imperial rule that was to precede the rise of Antichrist, keeping him delayed until the endtimes.

This document is a statement of personal belief by the authors, and not any kind of proof of their belief from Scriptures. Scriptures are used only to adorn their belief system--not to prove it.

What is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ? https://www.gotquestions.org/second-coming-Jesus-Christ.html

The second coming of Jesus Christ is the hope of believers that God is in control of all things, and is faithful to the promises and prophecies in His Word. In His first coming, Jesus Christ came to earth as a baby in a manger in Bethlehem, just as prophesied. Jesus fulfilled many of the prophecies of the Messiah during His birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection. However, there are some prophecies regarding the Messiah that Jesus has not yet fulfilled. The second coming of Christ will be the return of Christ to fulfill these remaining prophecies. In His first coming, Jesus was the suffering Servant. In His second coming, Jesus will be the conquering King. In His first coming, Jesus arrived in the most humble of circumstances. In His second coming, Jesus will arrive with the armies of heaven at His side.

The Old Testament prophets did not make clearly this distinction between the two comings. This can be seen in Isaiah 7:14, 9:6-7 and Zechariah 14:4. As a result of the prophecies seeming to speak of two individuals, many Jewish scholars believed there would be both a suffering Messiah and a conquering Messiah. What they failed to understand is that there is only one Messiah and He would fulfill both roles. Jesus fulfilled the role of the suffering servant (Isaiah chapter 53) in His first coming. Jesus will fulfill the role of Israel’s deliverer and King in His second coming. Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7, describing the second coming, look back to Jesus being pierced. Israel, and the whole world, will mourn for not having accepted the Messiah the first time He came.

After Jesus ascended into heaven, the angels declared to the apostles, “‘Men of Galilee,’ they said, ‘why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven’” (Acts 1:11). Zechariah 14:4 identifies the location of the second coming as the Mount of Olives. Matthew 24:30 declares, “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.” Titus 2:13 describes the second coming as a “glorious appearing.”

The second coming is spoken of in greatest detail in Revelation 19:11-16, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Response: The classic distinction between Jesus' Earthly Coming and his future Heavenly Coming never entailed a 2-stage process involved in the "2nd Coming." That is pure Dispensationalism, originating in around 1830 United Kingdom under the teaching of John N. Darby. Some things he taught were good, such as his Futurism and hope for national Israel. But he combined with his Futurism a mix of personal belief with Futurism, contaminating it with his own ideas. We need to keep the good and throw out the bad.

 

[MisterE]

Mr. E: I'm not a theologian, but I've taken particular interest in this subject since around 1972. I had been raised in a denomination that was not Dispensational. But when I reached late adolescence I came under the influence of Dispensationalists, and I accepted that teaching.

My brother convinced me to memorize Scriptures, and one book of the Bible I memorized was 2 Thessalonians. To my shock Paul was teaching Postribulationism, that Christ's Coming is to bring destruction to Antichrist following his revelation. I've been strongly in favor of Postribulationism ever since.

I did have some doubts when I lived for a few years in S. CA. I had been listening to the daily radio broadcasts of Chuck Smith from Costa Mesa, and I doubted whether I could be right and he be wrong. I read his commentary on Revelation, which forced me to pray and study.

I visited a bookstore belonging to Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, which had a School of Theology. (Incidentally, Hal Lindsey taught Sunday School there.) A stranger walked up to me and volunteered to help me, as I sought out understanding over this dispute.

The church was strongly Pretribulational, but this stranger pointed me to two books, Ladd's "The Blessed Hope," and Gundry's "The Church and the Tribulation. I eventually came to the conclusion that I was doubting my own eyes, and decided to believe what I already understood, that Christ's Coming will take place at the very end of the age, to destroy Antichrist.

So since that time I've read a lot of materials on this subject, and have long since thrown away many of the books I've read, both Pretrib and Postrib. I have, however, been discussing this subject on a number of different online forums over the last 20 years.

I know good men like Pat Robertson and Walter Martin were convinced Postribulationists. I know that Hal Lindsay and John Walvoord were strong advocates for Pretribulationsim. I went completely through one of Walvoord's treatment of the subject, and answered (for myself) every single point he made in the book.

I could go on. It is of personal interest to me. But I don't have a bloated view of myself, without denying my credibility on the subject. The bluff you're trying to call on me is clearly your own self-made "bluff." Well, maybe you think it's just a semi-informed "guess?"

But everything I'm telling you here is true, although I fully admit I'm not a theologian. I'll be happy to answer any point you may wish to make?

RandyK

Tell me what you think about this chart that contrasts the Rapture with the Second Coming. Dr. LaHaye says he has never had a Post-Tribber respond to this, so maybe you can be the first one. See why the Rapture is a different coming than the Second Coming. The Rapture is Phase 1 and the Second Coming is phase 2 as you note.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins
16. The Rapture is a mystery

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins
16. The second coming is prophesied in OT

Dr. Walvoord has a book out called The Rapture Question where he lists 50 arguments for the Pretrib. Some of them a pretty good, but the cumulative force of all 50 is pretty strong. You may have already read the book, but these 16 differences in this post should keep you busy for a while.

Oh, to be more like Him

 

[RandyK]

For your interest here is Walter Martin's statement pro-Postrib. I had written him a letter, asking him to do this, to make his eschatology more public.

He was reluctant because his ministry is focused on the major American cults. But he was also the "Bible Answerman." In this recording, he may have been referring to me as the one who asked him to do this! Incidentally, I don't agree with all of his statements. But his Postrib view iws clear and established in Scriptures.

Dr Walter Martin The Tribulation & The Church

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[RandyK]

RandyK

Tell me what you think about this chart that contrasts the Rapture with the Second Coming. Dr. LaHaye says he has never had a Post-Tribber respond to this, so maybe you can be the first one. See why the Rapture is a different coming than the Second Coming. The Rapture is Phase 1 and the Second Coming is phase 2 as you note.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins
16. The Rapture is a mystery

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins
16. The second coming is prophesied in OT

Dr. Walvoord has a book out called The Rapture Question where he lists 50 arguments for the Pretrib. Some of them a pretty good, but the cumulative force of all 50 is pretty strong. You may have already read the book, but these 16 differences in this post should keep you busy for a while.

Oh, to be more like Him

As I said, I already went through Walvoord's book on the Rapture, underlining every single point that I thought had any strength at all. And I answered (to myself) every single one of those points, excluding none! I did this many years ago!

About your list above, they may seem strong to you, but I can see right through it, having confronted this for 50 years, as I said. They are an artificial construct, arbitrarily chosen by LaHaye and fit into his own particular notion of a 2 stage Coming of Christ.

In reality, there is no 1st stage at all. So one cannot attribute all of the above elements just to that one so-called "stage." All elements apply equally to all stages, though there is really only one stage.

How can I say this with confidence? I can say this because I developed, with God's help, a system of interpretation in which the Bible interprets the Bible. When a biblical belief emerges, I then follow it through to latter references to that belief.

For example, I've determined that the belief about Antichrist has its primary biblical origin in Dan 7. The belief about the "Son of Man" is there, as well. Daniel provided in that one chapter the major NT eschatology of the Bible! What an important figure Daniel was!

So if you look into all of the NT references to Christ's Coming, you will find some elements that originated with Dan 7. The name "Son of Man" originated there. The "Man of Sin" originated there. The "Beast" originated there.

Every one of those elements were tied up with the coming of the Son of Man to *destroy the Antichrist,* and to save the saints of God. And it was an event establishing God's Kingdom on earth--not a process, but a decisive victory over Antichrist.

So there is only one Coming of Christ at the end of the age, and it isn't a 2 stage process. All of the elements LaHaye uses to distinguish between 2 stages are his arbitrary construction.

I'm a little busy right now, so I can detail more for you later, if you wish? I don't expect you to take my word on anything. But if I go into the Scriptures with genuine understanding, you may consider some of my arguments valid or at least respectable?

 

[MisterE]

As I said, I already went through Walvoord's book on the Rapture, underlining every single point that I thought had any strength at all. And I answered (to myself) every single one of those points, excluding none! I did this many years ago!

About your list above, they may seem strong to you, but I can see right through it, having confronted this for 50 years, as I said. They are an artificial construct, arbitrarily chosen by LaHaye and fit into his own particular notion of a 2 stage Coming of Christ.

In reality, there is no 1st stage at all. So one cannot attribute all of the above elements just to that one so-called "stage." All elements apply equally to all stages, though there is really only one stage.

How can I say this with confidence? I can say this because I developed, with God's help, a system of interpretation in which the Bible interprets the Bible. When a biblical belief emerges, I then follow it through to latter references to that belief.

For example, I've determined that the belief about Antichrist has its primary biblical origin in Dan 7. The belief about the "Son of Man" is there, as well. Daniel provided in that one chapter the major NT eschatology of the Bible! What an important figure Daniel was!

So if you look into all of the NT references to Christ's Coming, you will find some elements that originated with Dan 7. The name "Son of Man" originated there. The "Man of Sin" originated there. The "Beast" originated there.

Every one of those elements were tied up with the coming of the Son of Man to *destroy the Antichrist,* and to save the saints of God. And it was an event establishing God's Kingdom on earth--not a process, but a decisive victory over Antichrist.

So there is only one Coming of Christ at the end of the age, and it isn't a 2 stage process. All of the elements LaHaye uses to distinguish between 2 stages are his arbitrary construction.

I'm a little busy right now, so I can detail more for you later, if you wish? I don't expect you to take my word on anything. But if I go into the Scriptures with genuine understanding, you may consider some of my arguments valid or at least respectable?

RandyK

Forget Walvoord. Just respond, point by point (16 in all), of this chart. Forget your 50 years of study, just respond point by point and tell me if these two lists could possibly be referring to the same coming. If you rather not, that is fine, but don't tell me you think this chart is foolish or something. I don't believe you can respond to this chart. But if you do, I will answer anything you challenge me with.

 

[RandyK]

RandyK

Just respond, point by point (16 in all), of this chart.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air

According to Dan 7, Christ comes with the clouds to destroy the "Little Horn," aka the Antichrist. and to establish God's Kingdom on earth.

2. All believers are translated into new bodies

According to Dan 12, the saints experience resurrection when the 3.5 years of Antichristian Tribulation is over.

3. Christians are taken to the Father's House

Jesus is assurring his Disciples of Eternal Fellowship with God. He is coming to establish that eternal relationship through immortality, which would be the result of his work on the cross.

4. There is no judgment on the earth

There is always judgment on the earth as long as there is sin.

5. The Church will be in Heaven

The dead in Christ are already in heaven. Since Christ is returning from heaven as an immortal person, he must retrieve and immortalize his Church as he comes to earth with the clouds.

6. It is an imminent occurrence

"Imminent" means "near." Since Jesus has done the work of Salvation, Judgment follows relatively soon after. Both Salvation and Judgment has been near for all over the past 2000 years since the cross. This means people are in the "valley of decision."

7. There are no signs preceding it

Jesus said the Gospel must be preached before the end comes. Paul said Antichrist must be revealed before the Church is assembled at Christ's Coming. We are told, by Paul, that our ministries will be completed 1st.

8. It affects believers only

Only believers will be saved.

9. It is a time of joy

It will be joyful for Christians when they are raised from the dead and immortalized at Christ's Coming, when they are delivered from the Antichrist.

10. it occurs before the day of Wrath

Nowhere are we told that there is a resurrection before God's Wrath is poured out. On the day of God's Wrath in destroying Antichrist the Church will be delivered from mortality.

11. No mention of Satan

Satan inspires Antichrist before Christ returns to judge him. 2 Thes 2.

12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next

Christ judges the world when he comes, destroying the Antichristian Empire and holding all individuals on earth accountable for the sins of the present age.

13. There is the marriage of the Lamb

When Christians are united with Christ in immortality, this will be their eternal marriage with him.

14. Only Christ's own will see him

Salvation is for believers only.

15. The Tribulation begins

The Tribulation of the Jewish People began in 70 AD. It is spoken of in Luke 21. It lasts for the entire NT age, aka the Jewish Diaspora.

16. The Rapture is a mystery

The mystery is how people committed to death for their sins can be fully restored as God's Eternal People. It happens through Christ's redemption.

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies

Christ's 2nd Coming involves both the translation of our spirits, and our immortalization, so that we can simultaneously return with him to establish God's Kingdom on earth. This is our resurrection, the giving of brand new bodies while our spirits are restored to physical form.

3. resurrected saints remain on earth

I don't know any more than Christians will at the return of Christ establish rule on earth. As far as I know, this may be done with physical bodies more like angels, who can rule, as such, from heaven after establishing God's rule on earth.

4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period

There is only a 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist, which does precede Christ's Coming for his Church with the purpose of defeating Antichrist. 2 Thes 2.

7. The are numerous signs preceding it

The Great Commission and the ministry of the Church precedes the return of Christ, along with Antichristian resistance and persecution.

8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins
16. The second coming is prophesied in OT

The elements connected to the 2nd Coming in both lists are the same and represent the same Coming without 2 stages. In other words, each list represents an artificial construct, an artificial separation of Christ's Coming into 2 stages.

Since the same elements are in common with both lists, they are the same event, taking place at the exact same time. The distinctions between the 2 lists are purely artificial and represent an "argument from silence."

There is no explicit theology in the Scriptures suggesting any kind of differentiation in this respect--it must be read into the Scriptures.

 

[MisterE]

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air

According to Dan 7, Christ comes with the clouds to destroy the "Little Horn," aka the Antichrist. and to establish God's Kingdom on earth.

Dan 7 is the Second Coming, not the Rapture because the Rapture is a mystery (i.e., a doctrine not revealed in the OT).

2. All believers are translated into new bodies

According to Dan 12, the saints experience resurrection when the 3.5 years of Antichristian Tribulation is over.

Dan 12 only speaks of a resurrection at the Second Coming, not a translation.
If the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming, they would be in immortal bodies. Therefore, only resurrected people will enter the Millennium. So there would be nobody left to populate the Millennium, because in the Post Trib scheme all are resurrected or translated at Christ's second coming, so there are no mortals left to enter the Millennium and populate it.

3. Christians are taken to the Father's House

Jesus is assurring his Disciples of Eternal Fellowship with God. He is coming to establish that eternal relationship through immortality, which would be the result of his work on the cross.

At the Rapture Christ takes Bride to Father's House (in heaven), at Second coming he comes with his Bride to earth. Notice that there are two phases here. With Post trib, all believers are translated or resurrected at Second Coming. See above answer also.

4. There is no judgment on the earth

There is always judgment on the earth as long as there is sin.

At the Rapture, nobody is said to be judged, at the Second Coming, the Antichrist, the sheep and goat nations, etc. are judged. There is no judgment on unbelievers at the Rapture, at the Second coming, there is a judgment of unbelievers (the goats).

5. The Church will be in Heaven

The dead in Christ are already in heaven. Since Christ is returning from heaven as an immortal person, he must retrieve and immortalize his Church as he comes to earth with the clouds.

Not sure what you are saying here. Yes, the dead in Christ are already in heaven.

6. It is an imminent occurrence

"Imminent" means "near." Since Jesus has done the work of Salvation, Judgment follows relatively soon after. Both Salvation and Judgment has been near for all over the past 2000 years since the cross. This means people are in the "valley of decision."

The Rapture could happen at any moment, the Second Coming can not happen at any moment, first there must be the Tribulation with all the signs mentioned. The Second Coming happens 7 years after the signing of the covenant as mentioned in Dan 9. The date of Christ's second coming can be calculated to the exact day since it occurs exactly 7 years after the Antichrist and Israel sign the 7 year covenant. You can not know when the Rapture will happen.

7. There are no signs preceding it

Jesus said the Gospel must be preached before the end comes. Paul said Antichrist must be revealed before the Church is assembled at Christ's Coming. We are told, by Paul, that our ministries will be completed 1st.

No idea what you are saying here.

8. It affects believers only

Only believers will be saved.

The Second coming deals with believers AND unbelievers. Christ separates the sheep and the goats. At the Rapture, Christ only comes for the believers. The unbelievers remain on earth as they enter the Trib.

9. It is a time of joy

It will be joyful for Christians when they are raised from the dead and immortalized at Christ's Coming, when they are delivered from the Antichrist.

The Tribulation is not a time of joy for believers. Billions of people die during the Trib before Christ's coming

10. it occurs before the day of Wrath

Nowhere are we told that there is a resurrection before God's Wrath is poured out. On the day of God's Wrath in destroying Antichrist the Church will be delivered from mortality.

The wrath of God is a 7 year period known as the 70th week of Daniel. The Antichrist is destroyed at Christ's Second Coming at the end of the Trib. Also, Rev 3.10 says that the Church is kept from the TIME of the tribulation. Because the Church is not appointed to wrath .

11. No mention of Satan

Satan inspires Antichrist before Christ returns to judge him. 2 Thes 2.

The Satan-indwelt Antichrist signs 7 year covenant with Israel next after the Rapture, at Second coming he is removed from the earth.

12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next

Christ judges the world when he comes, destroying the Antichristian Empire and holding all individuals on earth accountable for the sins of the present age.

Christ does not judge the world at the Rapture. Remember, you believe in a Rapture if you are a Post-Tribber, it is just that you believe the Rapture happens as Christ returns at the Second coming. We go up and then return with Christ right away. My professor in college said this can't happen because it is against the law to make a U-Turn

13. There is the marriage of the Lamb

When Christians are united with Christ in immortality, this will be their eternal marriage with him.

Yes, and this happens in heaven, not on earth. The Church is in heaven during the entire Tribulation. Rev 3.10 again

14. Only Christ's own will see him

Salvation is for believers only.

At the Second coming, all eyes will see him descend, at the Rapture, only believers see him. This is just one of many reasons the Rapture and the Second Coming are two, separate events.

15. The Tribulation begins

The Tribulation of the Jewish People began in 70 AD. It is spoken of in Luke 21. It lasts for the entire NT age, aka the Jewish Diaspora.

The Tribulation is still future in AD 95 when John wrote Revelation. Surely you do not want to doubt the time of the writing of Revelation, that is, the argument for the early date of Rev. If you have any questions about this, read the book from Dr. Mark Hitchcock's doctoral dissertation on the dating of Rev. Or I think his debate with Hank Hanegraaff is online. I hate to point you to somewhere outside of this forum, but Dr. Hitchcock's dissertation is fact based.

16. The Rapture is a mystery

The mystery is how people committed to death for their sins can be fully restored as God's Eternal People. It happens through Christ's redemption.

No idea what you are saying here.

 

[MisterE]

Dan 7 is the Second Coming, not the Rapture because the Rapture is a mystery (i.e., a doctrine not revealed in the OT).


Dan 12 only speaks of a resurrection at the Second Coming, not a translation.
If the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming, they would be in immortal bodies. Therefore, only resurrected people will enter the Millennium. So there would be nobody left to populate the Millennium, because in the Post Trib scheme all are resurrected or translated at Christ's second coming, so there are no mortals left to enter the Millennium and populate it.


At the Rapture Christ takes Bride to Father's House (in heaven), at Second coming he comes with his Bride to earth. Notice that there are two phases here. With Post trib, all believers are translated or resurrected at Second Coming. See above answer also.


At the Rapture, nobody is said to be judged, at the Second Coming, the Antichrist, the sheep and goat nations, etc. are judged. There is no judgment on unbelievers at the Rapture, at the Second coming, there is a judgment of unbelievers (the goats).


Not sure what you are saying here. Yes, the dead in Christ are already in heaven.


The Rapture could happen at any moment, the Second Coming can not happen at any moment, first there must be the Tribulation with all the signs mentioned. The Second Coming happens 7 years after the signing of the covenant as mentioned in Dan 9. The date of Christ's second coming can be calculated to the exact day since it occurs exactly 7 years after the Antichrist and Israel sign the 7 year covenant. You can not know when the Rapture will happen.


No idea what you are saying here.


The Second coming deals with believers AND unbelievers. Christ separates the sheep and the goats. At the Rapture, Christ only comes for the believers. The unbelievers remain on earth as they enter the Trib.


The Tribulation is not a time of joy for believers. Billions of people die during the Trib before Christ's coming


The wrath of God is a 7 year period known as the 70th week of Daniel. The Antichrist is destroyed at Christ's Second Coming at the end of the Trib. Also, Rev 3.10 says that the Church is kept from the TIME of the tribulation. Because the Church is not appointed to wrath .


The Satan-indwelt Antichrist signs 7 year covenant with Israel next after the Rapture, at Second coming he is removed from the earth.


Christ does not judge the world at the Rapture. Remember, you believe in a Rapture if you are a Post-Tribber, it is just that you believe the Rapture happens as Christ returns at the Second coming. We go up and then return with Christ right away. My professor in college said this can't happen because it is against the law to make a U-Turn


Yes, and this happens in heaven, not on earth. The Church is in heaven during the entire Tribulation. Rev 3.10 again


At the Second coming, all eyes will see him descend, at the Rapture, only believers see him. This is just one of many reasons the Rapture and the Second Coming are two, separate events.


The Tribulation is still future in AD 95 when John wrote Revelation. Surely you do not want to doubt the time of the writing of Revelation, that is, the argument for the early date of Rev. If you have any questions about this, read the book from Dr. Mark Hitchcock's doctoral dissertation on the dating of Rev. Or I think his debate with Hank Hanegraaff is online. I hate to point you to somewhere outside of this forum, but Dr. Hitchcock's dissertation is fact based.


No idea what you are saying here.

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies

Christ's 2nd Coming involves both the translation of our spirits, and our immortalization, so that we can simultaneously return with him to establish God's Kingdom on earth. This is our resurrection, the giving of brand new bodies while our spirits are restored to physical form.

Not sure what you are saying here. There is no translation at the Second Coming, only at the Rapture.

3. resurrected saints remain on earth

I don't know any more than Christians will at the return of Christ establish rule on earth. As far as I know, this may be done with physical bodies more like angels, who can rule, as such, from heaven after establishing God's rule on earth.

Clueless what you are saying here.

4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period

There is only a 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist, which does precede Christ's Coming for his Church with the purpose of defeating Antichrist. 2 Thes 2.

The 70th week of Daniel describes the Antichrist's rule. He is one of the rulers of the Revived Roman Empire for the first 3.5 years of the 7 year Trib, he becomes sole ruler of the RRE for the last 3.5 years of the Trib/7 year covenant.

7. The are numerous signs preceding it

The Great Commission and the ministry of the Church precedes the return of Christ, along with Antichristian resistance and persecution.

8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins
16. The second coming is prophesied in OT

The elements connected to the 2nd Coming in both lists are the same and represent the same Coming without 2 stages. In other words, each list represents an artificial construct, an artificial separation of Christ's Coming into 2 stages.

The post-trib has 2 phases of his coming. Post-tribbers believe that the Rapture happens in connection with the Second Coming. After all, the Post-tribbers have to put the harpadzo somewhere. You could provide better arguments for the Post Trib position if you read Douglas Moo. He is a Post Trib scholar. I think if you read him, you will feel more confident in the Post Trib position. Several comments you make above show a lack of understanding of the strengths of the Post Trib view. Personally, if I had to give up the Pre-Trib view, I would accept the Mid Trib view, it is the only other one that has a legitimate understanding of the Rapture and the wrath of God.

By the way, thank you for taking time to respond to a lot of this thread.

Since the same elements are in common with both lists, they are the same event, taking place at the exact same time. The distinctions between the 2 lists are purely artificial and represent an "argument from silence."

Are you a Post-Tribber? I don't want to be presumptuous.

There is no explicit theology in the Scriptures suggesting any kind of differentiation in this respect--it must be read into the Scriptures.

 

[RandyK]

Not sure what you are saying here. There is no translation at the Second Coming, only at the Rapture.

You're assuming what you are wishing to prove! There is only the 2nd Coming--that's when the Rapture takes place. Do you hear what Paul is saying here?...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....

Paul is making the assumption that the 2nd Coming and the Rapture of the Church are simultaneous! So when one draws the opposite conclusion, that they are separate, he is choosing to ignore Paul and to reject Scripture!

Clueless what you are saying here.

LaHaye begins with the assumption that the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming of Christ are two separate events, when that cannot be proven!

What I'm saying is that the exact same elements that apply to the Rapture of the Church also apply to the 2nd Coming of Christ. And we know that because the origin of all NT eschatology is Daniel 7, which combines the Rapture of the Church with the 2nd Coming.

Although the Daniel reference is OT, and Israel is primarily in focus, it is the basis for all NT eschatology, as Israel's promises are expanded to apply to the International Church. Christ comes with the clouds, and that is when the Rapture of the Church takes place.

And Christ comes with the clouds in Dan 9, which is when the Kingdom of God is established on earth, and the Antichrist is defeated! So the Rapture of the Church takes place when the Son of Man comes with the clouds in a Postribulational context!

The 70th week of Daniel describes the Antichrist's rule. He is one of the rulers of the Revived Roman Empire for the first 3.5 years of the 7 year Trib, he becomes sole ruler of the RRE for the last 3.5 years of the Trib/7 year covenant.

This is another subject, which I'm happy to address. But it is a distraction from the main point, which is that the Rapture of the Church takes place *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ. This is the "appearance" of Christ that we are encouraged to "wait for" as Christians, the "Blessed Hope." It is the coming of Christ to destroy the Antichrist, save the Church, and establish God's Kingdom on earth permanently.

By the way, thank you for taking time to respond to a lot of this thread.

I've been doing this for over 20 years. I've always taken the questions seriously. And I'm always open to correction from the Lord. We are *on the same side!*

Are you a Post-Tribber? I don't want to be presumptuous.

Yes, I'm a Postribber. Thanks for listening.

 

[RandyK]

Dan 7 is the Second Coming, not the Rapture because the Rapture is a mystery (i.e., a doctrine not revealed in the OT).

Calling something a "mystery" does not answer the question for me. That sounds like a convenient "escape hatch" for someone like LaHaye.

What, for example, is Paul saying that renders the "Rapture" a "mystery?" Is it that Paul is teaching, or even insinuating, that the Rapture of the Church happens separately from the 2nd Coming of Christ?

Of course not! If that's what he meant for us to believe he would've said that. And he *never* says that the Rapture of the Church is separate from the 2nd Coming.

The "mystery" of NT truth is stated in other places, and it has nothing to do with separating the Rapture of the Church from the 2nd Coming! It has more to do with the addition of pagan Gentiles to the Jewish nation of faith. It has more to do with the Salvation of people who were found to be ineligible for Salvation under the Law of Moses.

But it has nothing to do with separating out the Rapture of the Church as some unknown mysterious quantity! How convenient that a doctrine that does not exist in Scripture is somehow inserted into Scripture as a "mystery" so that it does not require Scriptural grounding?????

Dan 12 only speaks of a resurrection at the Second Coming, not a translation.

The resurrection and the translation of the Church to heaven are simultaneous in Scriptures. To assume otherwise is actually a rejection of what the Scriptures teach. 1 Thes 4.

If the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming, they would be in immortal bodies. Therefore, only resurrected people will enter the Millennium. So there would be nobody left to populate the Millennium, because in the Post Trib scheme all are resurrected or translated at Christ's second coming, so there are no mortals left to enter the Millennium and populate it.

No, Postribbers are diverse and only agree on the basics of *when* Christ returns for the Church on the last day of the present age. I personally believe the Battle of Armageddon will preserve a vast number of mortal human beings, while the current Church will either be raised from the dead or translated into immortals alive.

At the Rapture Christ takes Bride to Father's House (in heaven), at Second coming he comes with his Bride to earth. Notice that there are two phases here. With Post trib, all believers are translated or resurrected at Second Coming. See above answer also.

This is a common Pretrib argument, that the Church must be Raptured 1st before returning from Heaven with Christ. The Pretrib argument is that both happen in a moment.

The idea of time spent in heaven for a Marriage Supper or for waiting until a U turn is made is pure speculation. The Scriptures indicate that in the twinkling of an eye everything can change.

And there is no reason to think the Church is going to Heaven to spend time there. Rather, we go to heaven to join Christ in his immortal, heavenly descent to earth, in order to establish God's Kingdom here. We must instantly become immortal to join with Christ in establishing a godly environment on earth.

At the Rapture, nobody is said to be judged, at the Second Coming, the Antichrist, the sheep and goat nations, etc. are judged. There is no judgment on unbelievers at the Rapture, at the Second coming, there is a judgment of unbelievers (the goats).

At the same time the Church is caught up to Christ, the unbelievers who follow Antichrist on earth will be judged with death. All will receive some kind of reward or punishment on the day Christ returns, though many will mercifully be spared to live on in the Millennial era.

Not sure what you are saying here. Yes, the dead in Christ are already in heaven.

You said the saints are portrayed as in heaven, waiting to come back with Christ. They are the departed saints, who will be joined, in a moment, by the translated living saints at Christ's 2nd Coming.

The Rapture could happen at any moment, the Second Coming can not happen at any moment...

This is never taught in the Scriptures! Where does the Bible teach that Christ can come "at any moment" or on "any day?" Nowhere!

Christ will come "soon," as we understand "nearness." Since Christ has already died for sins, his judgment "soon" follows, both in the present era and in the 2nd Coming.

, first there must be the Tribulation with all the signs mentioned. The Second Coming happens 7 years after the signing of the covenant as mentioned in Dan 9. The date of Christ's second coming can be calculated to the exact day since it occurs exactly 7 years after the Antichrist and Israel sign the 7 year covenant. You can not know when the Rapture will happen.

You mis-identify what the "Tribulation" is, and misinterpret any sense of a "7 years Period," in my opinion. I've already told you how I view it.

No idea what you are saying here.

Well, this is why asking me to address long lists is not particularly helpful. I think it's best to deal with one subject at a time.

No idea what you are saying here.

See what I mean?

 

[MisterE]

Calling something a "mystery" does not answer the question for me. That sounds like a convenient "escape hatch" for someone like LaHaye, who doesn't have any sound theology to hang his hat on?

Let's forget the chart you partially responded to. I only want to ask you one last question.

After the Second Coming, who enters the Millennium? In other words, who else besides the Resurrected believers and the translated believers enter the Millennium? This is not a trick question. I just want a legitimate answer from a Post-Tribber.