The word Rapture is in the Bible

[RandyK]

Let's forget the chart you partially responded to. I only want to ask you one last question.

It's difficult and tedious answering questions that I view as irrelevant regardless. You want me to answer questions based on the assumption that 2 events are separate when in my view they are the same event?

So I'm supposed to recognize differences between these 2 events when those supposed "differences" are in common with both so-called "events?" I'm not interested in answering a great number of questions that are better summarized as "irrelevant" and "presumptuous." You are presuming that the 2 events are separate when in my view they're not.

After the Second Coming, who enters the Millennium? In other words, who else besides the Resurrected believers and the translated believers enter the Millennium? This is not a trick question. I just want a legitimate answer from a Post-Tribber.

I don't represent all Postribbers. My own view is that at Armageddon a good portion of the world's population dies, but a good portion also survives. So these survivors enter into the Millennial Age without experiencing what Christians do on the last day of the present age.

On the day Christ returns, on the last day of the present age, true Christians, who have survived Armageddon, will be caught up to meet Christ as he comes with the clouds. It will be instantaneous, and virtually seamless.

We will return with Christ from the clouds in glorified, immortal bodies. And by authority of our word, together with the command of Christ, we will establish spiritual order on earth, disallowing Satanic rule among the nations.

Satan himself will be bound by angels during this period. People will still have a Sin Nature, but they will not be badgered and incited into having international wars. Swords will be turned into plowshares.

 

[hawkman]

Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

 

[RandyK]

You're assuming what you are wishing to prove! There is only the 2nd Coming--that's when the Rapture takes place. Do you hear what Paul is saying here?...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....

Paul is making the assumption that the 2nd Coming and the Rapture of the Church are simultaneous! So when one draws the opposite conclusion, that they are separate, he is choosing to ignore Paul and to reject Scripture!

LaHaye begins with the assumption that the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming of Christ are two separate events, when that cannot be proven!

What I'm saying is that the exact same elements that apply to the Rapture of the Church also apply to the 2nd Coming of Christ. And we know that because the origin of all NT eschatology is Daniel 7, which combines the Rapture of the Church with the 2nd Coming.

Although the Daniel reference is OT, and Israel is primarily in focus, it is the basis for all NT eschatology, as Israel's promises are expanded to apply to the International Church. Christ comes with the clouds, and that is when the Rapture of the Church takes place.

And Christ comes with the clouds in Dan 9, which is when the Kingdom of God is established on earth, and the Antichrist is defeated! So the Rapture of the Church takes place when the Son of Man comes with the clouds in a Postribulational context!

This is another subject, which I'm happy to address. But it is a distraction from the main point, which is that the Rapture of the Church takes place *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ. This is the "appearance" of Christ that we are encouraged to "wait for" as Christians, the "Blessed Hope." It is the coming of Christ to destroy the Antichrist, save the Church, and establish God's Kingdom on earth permanently.

I've been doing this for over 20 years. I've always taken the questions seriously. And I'm always open to correction from the Lord. We are *on the same side!*

Yes, I'm a Postribber. Thanks for listening.

Since I cannot edit after a period of time, I have add that I mistakenly referenced Dan 9 above when I meant to reference Dan 7, which is where end-time prophecy provides the basic blueprint for NT eschatology.

 

[MisterE]

RandyK, You wrote:

It's difficult and tedious answering questions that I view as irrelevant regardless. You want me to answer questions based on the assumption that 2 events are separate when in my view they are the same event?

I thought you would say that. This creates a huge problem for Post Tribs. If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the "same event," then all believers are either Resurrected or Translated at the end of the Tribulation. All believers are taken up at the Rapture/Second Coming. Now, here is the problem. There is nobody left in their mortal bodies to enter the Millennial Reign of Christ. So, there is nobody to populate the Millennial Kingdom. Who populates the Millennial Kingdom since only resurrected or translated believers are alive at the start of the Millennium?

 

[RandyK]

RandyK, You wrote:

It's difficult and tedious answering questions that I view as irrelevant regardless. You want me to answer questions based on the assumption that 2 events are separate when in my view they are the same event?

I thought you would say that. This creates a huge problem for Post Tribs. If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the "same event," then all believers are either Resurrected or Translated at the end of the Tribulation. All believers are taken up at the Rapture/Second Coming. Now, here is the problem. There is nobody left in their mortal bodies to enter the Millennial Reign of Christ. So, there is nobody to populate the Millennial Kingdom. Who populates the Millennial Kingdom since only resurrected or translated believers are alive at the start of the Millennium?

I don't see that as a problem at all? Yes, Postribs like myself see the resurrection taking place when Antichrist is defeated. That's what we read in Rev 20. It's called the "1st Resurrection."

Those who are not yet Christians, who have survived Armageddon, will enter into the Millennial Age. Just like after WW2 those who survived the war entered into the Post-War Era.

Christians who are taken out are a very small portion of the world population. Nominal Christians number in the billions, but genuine Christians, who truly believe and live out their faith, are relatively small. Jesus called them the few who walk down the narrow way and enter into life.

The world will continue for another thousand years past the Rapture of the Church. Armageddon is, in my view, a nuclear war and also a world war. Major cities will fall in one hour, and the governments of all nations will be reduced to rubble, so to speak.

But just like in the previous world wars, many will survive. The program of evangelization then will reach a different stage.

The evangelistic program of the present age is designed to prepare people in an age of Satanic abuse. But in the age to come, evangelism will take place with much less opposition. Still, people will have a sin nature, and ultimately will fall back on it when Satan is released.

 

[MisterE]

I don't see that as a problem at all? Yes, Postribs like myself see the resurrection taking place when Antichrist is defeated. That's what we read in Rev 20. It's called the "1st Resurrection."

Those who are not yet Christians, who have survived Armageddon, will enter into the Millennial Age. Just like after WW2 those who survived the war entered into the Post-War Era.

Christians who are taken out are a very small portion of the world population. Nominal Christians number in the billions, but genuine Christians, who truly believe and live out their faith, are relatively small. Jesus called them the few who walk down the narrow way and enter into life.

The world will continue for another thousand years past the Rapture of the Church. Armageddon is, in my view, a nuclear war and also a world war. Major cities will fall in one hour, and the governments of all nations will be reduced to rubble, so to speak.

But just like in the previous world wars, many will survive. The program of evangelization then will reach a different stage.

The evangelistic program of the present age is designed to prepare people in an age of Satanic abuse. But in the age to come, evangelism will take place with much less opposition. Still, people will have a sin nature, and ultimately will fall back on it when Satan is released.

With Post-Tribbers, at the Rapture/Second Coming ALL are resurrected or translated. There is no mortals alive entering the Millennium. You can't just say I dont see a problem. It is insurmountable. There is no solution to this dilemma that the Post-Tribber faces. Remember, you connect the Rapture (where all believers are either resurrected (if they are dead) or Translated (if they are alive). For example, all those believers who make it through Armageddon, will be translated at the Second Coming. There will not be one mortal entering the Millennium under the Post-Trib Model.

This has gone on long enough, I will do some more posts on other topics shortly. I am getting bored with our exchanges.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You wrote:

"Well, the word harpazō occurs a bunch of other places in the NT. In a lot of them a rapture doesn't fit."

Not exactly what you are contending here. Like most words, harpazō has many usages/meanings. Also, rapture means to take by force, so the word rapture fits several of the verses you quote.

Whatever you think it means, "sudden disapperance" in alien abduction style, as it's commonly preached from the pulpit, is absolutely fictional. 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is merely a prophecy of the second coming, when Jesus returns, the dead will be resurrected, along with the survivors to reign with Christ - on earth.

"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4)

Another false doctrine is that from Rev. 4:1 to the end, apostle John was "raptured to heave". But John was still in the Island of Patmos, he was seeing a divine vision, he wasn't physically teleported anywhere.

 

[MisterE]

Whatever you think it means, "sudden disapperance" in alien abduction style, as it's commonly preached from the pulpit, is absolutely fictional. 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is merely a prophecy of the second coming, when Jesus returns, the dead will be resurrected, along with the survivors to reign with Christ - on earth.

"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4)

Another false doctrine is that from Rev. 4:1 to the end, apostle John was "raptured to heave". But John was still in the Island of Patmos, he was seeing a divine vision, he wasn't physically teleported anywhere.

I have pointed out the impossibility of having the Rapture at the end of the trib. If you hold that, you will not have anyone in their mortal bodies entering into the Millennial Kingdom, only glorified believers. Who will populate the Millennial Kingdom? There is no answer to this in a post trib view.

 

[JLB]

So my aim here is to humbly offer my opinion that a Pretrib Rapture is not biblical.

Agreed.


All anyone has to do is read this verse from 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which is the word from the Lord Jesus Christ.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The rapture occurs at the coming of the LORD, which is the second coming of Jesus Christ, AFTER the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


A person who is hungry for the truth can read Matthew 24 to learn all about the coming of the Lord from Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[JLB]

Whatever you think it means, "sudden disapperance" in alien abduction style, as it's commonly preached from the pulpit, is absolutely fictional. 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is merely a prophecy of the second coming,

Amen!

 

[RandyK]

Agreed.


All anyone has to do is read this verse from 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which is the word from the Lord Jesus Christ.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The rapture occurs at the coming of the LORD, which is the second coming of Jesus Christ, AFTER the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


A person who is hungry for the truth can read Matthew 24 to learn all about the coming of the Lord from Jesus Christ Himself.

My favorite personal argument from the Scriptures is purely logical. The 1st and primary mention of the coming of the Son of Man from heaven is foretold in Dan 7, which is an exclusively Postribulational context. All of the NT writers who spoke of the coming of the Lord from heaven were obviouslly aware of this passage and were likely referring to this.

Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

All of the elements of this prophecy in some way are present in the NT passages having to do with Christ's Return, the deliverance of the saints from the Antichrist, the establishment of the Kingdom, the Son of Man and his descent from the clouds.

It is completely Post-Tribulational. And that's how historically the Church has interpreted it. Thanks for your contribution to this understanding!

 

[Little Owl]

You have all heard that the word Rapture does not appear in the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth. Let me show you the actual words Paul wrote in 1 Thess 4:17:

ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.18 Ὥστε παρακαλεῖτε ἀλλήλους ἐν τοῖς λόγοις τούτοις.

Do you see the word Rapture? It is right there is plain view. Let me do some translation of the words Paul wrote:

ἔπειτα Then ἡμεῖς we οἱ ζῶντες who are alive οἱ περιλειπόμενοι who are left
ἁρπαγησόμεθα. will be raptured...

There is the word Rapture used by Paul.
What most critics mean when they say the word 'rapture' does not appear in the Bible, they really mean the word rapture is not translated in any English translation. Don't be fooled. Don't let them say Rapture does not appear in the 'Bible.' Remind them that Paul wrote the word raptured in 1 Thess 4:17. The Koine Greek word for rapture is ἁρπαγησόμεθα. So, the word Rapture is found in all Greek manuscripts of 1 Thess. This is not nit picking, this is just letting the critic use a translation, like the KJV or NIV, in stead of the BIBLE. It is important to communicate this. Remember, the critic is relying on a Translation of the Bible, not the Bible itself. All serious scholars use the Greek Bible, not a Translation into another language when doing intense study.

You not only know now that Rapture appears in the Bible, in fact, you have seen it.

Yes,it is all through the scripture.

​

God rest and keep you and your wife in his peace sir. You were a wonderful teacher Mr.Missler. Thank you.

 

[MisterE]

My favorite personal argument from the Scriptures is purely logical. The 1st and primary mention of the coming of the Son of Man from heaven is foretold in Dan 7, which is an exclusively Postribulational context. All of the NT writers who spoke of the coming of the Lord from heaven were obviouslly aware of this passage and were likely referring to this.

Paul tells us that the whole Rapture event (not all believers will die, Christ returning in the air but not to earth, those "IN CHRIST" being Raptured, etc.) is a mystery. The second coming is not a mystery. No position doubts that the second coming is a teaching of the Bible, but as my chart shows, the differences in the Rapture and 2nd Coming shows that there are two different phases to the Coming of Christ.

Most Post tribbers assume what they have to prove. For example, one post-tribber simply said that "Christ comes FOR his own in the air" is the 2nd Coming. That has to be proved not just dogmatically asserted. And, we know that the Rapture can not happen with the Second Coming because that would mean that all believers who enter the Millennial Kingdom do so in a glorified body. Meaning, there would be no believer in the Mill to populate the world.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the Trib period happens first
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[RandyK]

Paul tells us that the whole Rapture event (not all believers will die, Christ returning in the air but not to earth, those "IN CHRIST" being Raptured, etc.) is a mystery. The second coming is not a mystery. No position doubts that the second coming is a teaching of the Bible, but as my chart shows, the differences in the Rapture and 2nd Coming shows that there are two different phases to the Coming of Christ.

The Bible does *not* teach 2 different phases of Christ's Coming! Nowhere are we told that--you just read that into various passages, selecting the criteria you want to assign to each supposed "phase."

As I said, all of NT eschatology is based on Daniel 7, where the context is clearly Postribulational. Christ doesn't come "half-way" to earth, stopping in the clouds. No, he appears before the throne of his Father in heaven, receives his mandate, and descends from the clouds of heaven.

Get that? He *descends from heaven,* which is precisely what Paul teaches in 1 Thes 4, the famous "Rapture Passage!" If you "descend from heaven," where does that land you--in mid-heaven?

No, it lands you on earth, where Jesus is establishing God's Kingdom, in place of the kingdoms of this world. And this is exactly as we see in Revelation 11. The Kingdom of the Lord and of His Christ establishes the Kingdom of God on earth, in place of Antichrist and his false kingdom.

Most Post tribbers assume what they have to prove.

No, Dan 7 says exactly what I've said it says. My Postribulational Theology is based precisely on what Dan 7 teaches, that the Son of Man comes from heaven, defeats the Antichrist, delivers the saints, and establishes God's eternal Kingdom on the earth. None of this is concocted by me or other Postribulationists.

You and Pretribulationists are the ones who concoct things that aren't there. There is no theology of "2 phases" of Christ's Coming. Where does that come from? You have to fit it in there by some kind of twisted logic, foreign to the accounts of the Bible.

Where are we taught that Christ stops on his way to earth, somewhere in mid-heaven, to have a Supper with the Church? My Bible version says that we are caught up in a twinkling of an eye and instantly transformed.

My Bible says the resurrection of the saints--the 1st one, takes place at Christ's Coming when the Devil is punished and imprisoned and when the Antichrist is completely defeated. No, we don't make up stuff--you do!

 

[Little Owl]

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? | GotQuestions.org

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? Are the Rapture and the Second Coming different events?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[MisterE]

what Dan 7 teaches, that the Son of Man comes from heaven, defeats the Antichrist, delivers the saints, and establishes God's eternal Kingdom on the earth.

I agree. Now would you please answer why the two columns I presented are the same coming.

 

[RandyK]

I agree. Now would you please answer why the two columns I presented are the same coming.

Sure. I believe that *all* NT Eschatology is referring, by the various NT authors, to Daniel 7. I think they were all very aware that Daniel provided an exclusive view into the last days events. And it is entirely Postribulational in context. So they all have to do with the same event, at the exact same time.

All of the elements in your columns that have to do with the last days originate with Dan 7, where Antichrist is defeated at the descent from heaven by the Son of Man. This is the very time that God establishes His Kingdom on earth. All of the various teachings therefore relate to one another, in my view. Having 2 columns cannot separate what are joined together in Daniel's singular vision, or dream.

 

[MisterE]

Sure. I believe that *all* NT Eschatology is referring, by the various NT authors, to Daniel 7. I think they were all very aware that Daniel provided an exclusive view into the last days events. And it is entirely Postribulational in context. So they all have to do with the same event, at the exact same time.

All of the elements in your columns that have to do with the last days originate with Dan 7, where Antichrist is defeated at the descent from heaven by the Son of Man. This is the very time that God establishes His Kingdom on earth. All of the various teachings therefore relate to one another, in my view. Having 2 columns cannot separate what are joined together in Daniel's singular vision, or dream.

I will assume you are not able to answer my question. Let's move on to another topic. Read Robert Gundry and Douglas Moo, they are high level scholars who both hold to the Post Trib view. I think if you read these two scholars, you will be able to answer my two columns. Perhaps you won't be intimidated when someone ask you some tough questions.

 

[Little Owl]

My post was mistaketly deleted by someone so here it is again.

The rapture is all throughout Scripture.

God rest you and your wife sir. You were a great teacher.

 

[RandyK]

I will assume you are not able to answer my question.

I directly answered your question. You asked about how I unite your 2 columns into 1? And my answer was as direct as possible--both columns identify with a single vision or dream, given in Dan 7, that presents a single Postribulational context.

Why then do you assume I wasn't able to answer your question? Are you failing to understand my logic here? I can provide much greater detail if you require it?

Let's move on to another topic. Read Robert Gundry and Douglas Moo, they are high level scholars who both hold to the Post Trib view. I think if you read these two scholars, you will be able to answer my two columns. Perhaps you won't be intimidated when someone ask you some tough questions.

;) Seriously? I read Robert Gundry back in the late 70s! I actually emailed him a year back or so! It's not that I know him, but I emailed him to find out if he recommended any new Postrib books.