The word Rapture is in the Bible

[RandyK]

I will assume you are not able to answer my question. Let's move on to another topic. Read Robert Gundry and Douglas Moo, they are high level scholars who both hold to the Post Trib view. I think if you read these two scholars, you will be able to answer my two columns. Perhaps you won't be intimidated when someone ask you some tough questions.

Back at the same time I read Robert Gundry, in the late 1970s, I also read George E. Ladd. He also is a top notch Postribulationist and scholar.

He taught NT Theology down in S. CA, Fullerton, where I lived at the time. I later wrote him, and I received a message back from his office, notifying me that sadly, he had just died! I believe that was in the early 80s.

I wrote Walter Martin, who was also based nearby in S. CA, Orange County, about his Postrib views. He was the Bible Answerman, and was willing to discourse on any biblical subject, along with information about the American cults.

I asked him to put out a public statement on his Postrib beliefs, and soon after he put out a tape documenting his Postrib position. You can access it online.

Pat Robertson was a notable who was also Postrib, and was unafraid to state his views. Book stores had been taken over by Pretrib Rapture books, speculating on who the Antichrist was, what 666 means, etc. I think people get caught up in anything predictive and sensationalistic?

But my point earlier was that if a dream or vision is documented with great detail, and everybody later refers to that very dream, they are not likely to divide the dream up into 2 separate columns and visions! The NT authors all referred, directly or indirectly, to Daniel's dream in Dan 7.

So whenver they spoke of the Son of Man, of his coming from the clouds, of the deliverance of the saints, of the defeat of Antichrist, of the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth, of Jesus being dressed as white as snow, when the fires of eschatological judgment are mentioned, it is obviously a reference back to Dan 7 where Daniel's dream refers to all of these things in a single dream! They cannot be separated into different dreams, into 2 separate columns, or different interpretations.

A "mysterious meaning" cannot be justifiably inserted into it, to be discerned later by those with some kind of agenda to impose a secret Rapture of the Church. No mysterious "Church Rapture" that is Pretrib can be inserted into Daniel's dream in Dan 7 without looking out of place and in fact "inserted."

 

[MisterE]

I directly answered your question. You asked about how I unite your 2 columns into 1?

Show me the Second Coming in Dan 7! The Rapture would not appear in Dan 7 because the Rapture is a NT doctrine. The 2 columns, one which speaks of the Rapture, and the other speaks of the Second Coming. If you feel these two columns are compatible then by all means Yes I would like additional information since you have offered it. How do the Rapture and the Second Coming refer to the same event.

The 2nd point, for example, shows how at the Rapture ALL believers are given a glorified body, and at the Second Coming many believers enter the Mill in their natural bodies. What I would like for you to do, if you will, is show how these two points are compatible. And then, go point by point and explain how each point in column 1 fits with the corresponding point in column 2. I don't think it can be done personally.

 

[MisterE]

I read Robert Gundry back in the late 70s! I actually emailed him a year back or so! It's not that I know him, but I emailed him to find out if he recommended any new Postrib books.

A lot of your answers that I have read out here were Post Trib arguments back in the 70s and 80s. If you want a great Post Trib book that is more current get a book called:

Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation​

 

[RandyK]

Show me the Second Coming in Dan 7! The Rapture would not appear in Dan 7 because the Rapture is a NT doctrine.

How convenient! Just like the cults your supposed "biblical position" isn't biblical because it is a "secret," discerned only by the "initiated?" The NT apostles did not invent doctrines out of thin air. When Paul spoke of "mysteries," he was speaking not of new unfounded doctrines, but rather, of new doctrines with a background--the fulfillment of prior truths.

The various "mysteries" spoken of in this way are all biblically-based, and not "new" in the sense of "completely new," originating only with the Apostles. Jesus had spoken of a "New Commandment" even while he was still under the Law and before the Cross. And it was perfectly well understood even while the Law continued to be in effect.

The kind of "mystery" you refer to are more like Gnostic teachings and Mystery Religions with their secret rituals and subjective revelations. The Bible asks us to study to be approved of God as a workman that needs not be ashamed. It is not a Secret Society with private truths that cannot be substantiated by anything more than thin air and empty claims.

"I said so" is not good enough for me. And apart from this subjective revelation, based on an assumption, none of the Pretrib "proofs" in the NT Bible have any basis in understanding.

The 2 columns, one which speaks of the Rapture, and the other speaks of the Second Coming. If you feel these two columns are compatible then by all means Yes I would like additional information since you have offered it. How do the Rapture and the Second Coming refer to the same event.

1st, read Daniel's Dream in Daniel 7. The following portion of the chapter identifies the context, which involves a court session determining that the Kingdom of God should supplant the Kingdom of the Antichrist. So this is the context for the Coming of the Son of Man mentioned next.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

So we have a clear Postribulational context--the destruction of Antichrist, as determined by the court of heaven. Next we have Christ Coming to earth bringing the decree received in this court of heaven....

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

So here we have it. The context is Antichrist's destruction when the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven. Paul refers to the same as a "descent from heaven," which means he arrives on earth to establish God's Kingdom here.

We have 2 important elements here--the defeat of Antichrist and the coming of the Son of Man to establish God's Kingdom on earth. These are the elements that we see in *all* of the NT eschatology you will see in the NT Scriptures.

In his Olivet Discourse Jesus deals in particular with the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD and with the following dispersal of the Jews for the next 2000 years or so. You can also see this in Dan 9 and 12.1.

But Jesus also mentions in this Discourse the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven. This marks the end of the age of Jewish Tribulation.

In the book of Revelation we are immediately greeted with a reference to the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven...

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him."

Then following in the book of Revelation we see the Son of Man appearing as such...

Rev 1. 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

This is very similar to Dan 7.9 above, with the reference to hair as white as snow, and fire. Later in the book of Revelation you will read of the defeat of Antichrist and of the coming of Christ to defeat him and to establish God's Kingdom on earth. These accounts perfectly correlate, indicating that the author of Revelation was also saying the same thing in Dan 7.

I could go on, but I'll spare you covering the entirety of the book of Revelation. In 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4, and 2 Thes 1-2 you will find the deliverance of the saints at the Coming of Christ results in our meeting with Christ to become like him as he is, ie resurrected to glorification. This corresponds with the deliverance of the saints mentioned in Dan 7, to take place at the coming of the Son of Man.

How do we know this? It is because Jesus, when he mentioned the Son of Man coming with the clouds indicates there will be certain activities that also align with 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4, and 2 Thes 1-2, including angels, trumpets, and resurrection.

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Meeting with Christ in the air corresponds with Christ coming in the air, with the clouds of heaven. The voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God, indicated by Jesus in his Olivet Discourse, therefore corresponds with the Son of Man coming in Dan 7. And it involves the resurrection of the saints, as mentioned in 1 Cor 15 and Dan 12.2.

The 2nd point, for example, shows how at the Rapture ALL believers are given a glorified body, and at the Second Coming many believers enter the Mill in their natural bodies. What I would like for you to do, if you will, is show how these two points are compatible. And then, go point by point and explain how each point in column 1 fits with the corresponding point in column 2. I don't think it can be done personally.

I've already explained to you that 2 columns cannot separate points that are in common with a single Postrib scenario painted in Dan 7! They all suggest the same time period. And insertion of a "Secret Mysterious Rapture" cannot be offered without prejudice.

I already explained that many mortal human beings survive the Battle of Armageddon and enter into the New Age of the Millennium in their natural bodies! The saints who are glorified at Christ's Coming are saints who have been living exemplary Christian lives at the time of the Coming of the Son of Man.

They will come back with Jesus to rule with him in glorified bodies and likely in a glorified environment--a heavenly environment impacting the earth. We will likely be invisible unless God chooses to make us visible like the angels are at times.

The old earth will continue as is, although with new Christian rule, for a thousand years. Then a final Age will begin with all sin and sinners removed from the New Earth. I think it is important for you to connect the Son of Man language in the Olivet Discourse, the book of Revelation, and Dan 7. The terms used are all the same and refer to the identical subject material.

 

[RandyK]

A lot of your answers that I have read out here were Post Trib arguments back in the 70s and 80s. If you want a great Post Trib book that is more current get a book called:

Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation​

I've read lots of material on eschatology, and will be happy to read more. Thank you! (I just ordered it.)

My answers do not pretend to be new--if they were, they would be false. God didn't wait until I was born to give the Church truth! ;)

On the other hand, my views are put together by me uniquely in the way I do it. I've borrowed from a number of different prophetic schools, thinking there are at times truths in even views I disagree with.

Sadly, most people tend to defend *every position* taken by their favored school. I think they sell themselves short in doing this.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I have pointed out the impossibility of having the Rapture at the end of the trib. If you hold that, you will not have anyone in their mortal bodies entering into the Millennial Kingdom, only glorified believers. Who will populate the Millennial Kingdom? There is no answer to this in a post trib view.

Yes there is an answer, bible has told us:

Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. (Rev. 2:20-22)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A lot of your answers that I have read out here were Post Trib arguments back in the 70s and 80s. If you want a great Post Trib book that is more current get a book called:

Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation​

The camp I'm reside in is no rapture, only second coming and resurrection. Also there's a difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan, those two shall not be conflated.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You not only know now that Rapture appears in the Bible, in fact, you have seen it.

The question you should ask is not about whether "rapture" is in the bible or not, but how it is revelant to you and I. So far all the hypes are formulated around 1 Thess. 4:17, I've never heard one dispensationalist pastor talks anything about 4:16 - how about the dead who'll rise first? Then "rapture at any minute" is the same as "drop dead at any minute", and it's no different from the message of future resurrection.

Another "proof text" they often quote is Rev. 3:10 - "I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." But wait a minute, how can we be absolutely sure that this is addressing to us? I've never heard them mentioned Rev. 2:22 - "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds." or Rev. 3:16 - So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." What if I belong to one of these two churches? Or worse, what if I live among the "earth dwellers", who are guaranteed to go into the Great Tribulation?

 

[MisterE]

The question you should ask is not about whether "rapture" is in the bible or not, but how it is revelant to you and I. So far all the hypes are formulated around 1 Thess. 4:17, I've never heard one dispensationalist pastor talks anything about 4:16 - how about the dead who'll rise first? Then "rapture at any minute" is the same as "drop dead at any minute", and it's no different from the message of future resurrection.

Another "proof text" they often quote is Rev. 3:10 - "I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." But wait a minute, how can we be absolutely sure that this is addressing to us? I've never heard them mentioned Rev. 2:22 - "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds." or Rev. 3:16 - So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." What if I belong to one of these two churches? Or worse, what if I live among the "earth dwellers", who are guaranteed to go into the Great Tribulation?

I am sorry, but I can't understand what you are saying/asking.

 

[JLB]

The 1st and primary mention of the coming of the Son of Man from heaven is foretold in Dan 7, which is an exclusively Postribulational context.

Yes.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection of the dead in Christ.

The rapture

The destruction of the antichrist

• These three things occur at His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

 

[JLB]

My post was mistaketly deleted by someone so here it is again.

The rapture is all throughout Scripture.

God rest you and your wife sir. You were a great teacher.

The Resurrection and Rapture occur at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

[RandyK]

The Resurrection and Rapture occur at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

Missler makes a silly argument, that Postribbers should've been happy to hear that some Christians were claiming Christ had already come. They weren't Postribbers because they hadn't yet understood that argument until Paul actually made it! ;)

The reality is, the Thessalonians were unprepared, by Dan 7, for the claim that the Day of Christ's Coming had already arrived. They *should have known* from Dan 7 that the Antichrist and his rebellion against God must *precede* the Coming of the Son of Man.

Why is this important today? There are still Christians claiming that Christ's Kingdom has already arrived within their cult. The JWs claim that, and even Kingdom Now Christians, though otherwise orthodox, claim that as well, to some degree. We should reject that.

Paul is making the argument that Jesus made--Christ's Kingdom is not yet here if Jesus has not yet stepped out of heaven! Any other claim of that kind is a cult and is a lie.

False Christs, and the Antichrist himself, will precede the coming of the Son of Man from heaven. That is what Dan 7 taught us, and we should take Paul's reminder seriously.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I am sorry, but I can't understand what you are saying/asking.

I was asking, have you thought about the possibility that you end up in the "dead" group in 1 Thess. 4:16? I believe "rapture" simply points to future resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns, and that is explicitly stated in 1 Thess. 4:16 that the dead will rise first. Therefore if this "rapture" doesn't happen in our lifestime, if we're removed from the earth by our own mortality - like all past generations before us, then we'll just be waiting for it in the grave, right? I can't understand the excitement over this "blessed hope", and why the scenario in 4:13 to 4:16 is never addressed - have you ever heard it from any pastor that this passage of 1 Thess. 4 in particular was written to the mourners in Thessalonica whose loved ones had recently departed? This "blessed hope" was referring to future resurrection, the same message in 1 Cor. 15, not a mysterious "removal of the church".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I am sorry, but I can't understand what you are saying/asking.

And when dispensationalists weaponize Rev. 3:10 against any opponent or doubter of the rapture doctrine, it begs the same question - "spared from the trial" only applies to the Philadelphia church, what's the assurance of your place in this church - when there're seven churches? What if you belong to Thyatira, for which the great tribulation is garanteed (Rev. 2:22)? What if you belong to Laodicea which is vomited out (Rev. 3:16)? What if you belong to Smyrna, where you may be persecuted to death before the rapture, then you join the dead in 1 Thess. 4:16? And in case you don't know, Thyatira, Laodicea and Smyrna are commonly identified as Catholics, apostate "health and wealth" Protestant and persecuted third country churches, so what's the point and relevance of the rapture doctrine for these churches - since only the Philadelphia church is spared from the trial?

 

[MisterE]

And when dispensationalists weaponize Rev. 3:10 against any opponent or doubter of the rapture doctrine, it begs the same question - "spared from the trial" only applies to the Philadelphia church, what's the assurance of your place in this church - when there're seven churches? What if you belong to Thyatira, for which the great tribulation is garanteed (Rev. 2:22)? What if you belong to Laodicea which is vomited out (Rev. 3:16)? What if you belong to Smyrna, where you may be persecuted to death before the rapture, then you join the dead in 1 Thess. 4:16? And in case you don't know, Thyatira, Laodicea and Smyrna are commonly identified as Catholics, apostate "health and wealth" Protestant and persecuted third country churches, so what's the point and relevance of the rapture doctrine for these churches - since only the Philadelphia church is spared from the trial?

Which trial? the one that is coming upon the "whole world." This does not refer to individual believers who will under various trails in life. this is a worldwide event.

Rev 3.13, this was written for the churches. I am not of the persuasion that the 7 churches represent historical developments of Church history.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Which trial? the one that is coming upon the "whole world." This does not refer to individual believers who will under various trails in life. this is a worldwide event.

Rev 3.13, this was written for the churches. I am not of the persuasion that the 7 churches represent historical developments of Church history.

Those seven churches are both seven types of churches and seven historic periods. The trial in Rev. 3:10 is referring to the Great Tribulation reserved for the earth dwellers, not some kind of personal traumatic experience.

 

[MisterE]

Those seven churches are both seven types of churches and seven historic periods. The trial in Rev. 3:10 is referring to the Great Tribulation reserved for the earth dwellers, not some kind of personal traumatic experience.

I almost agree, but with one adjustment, Rev 3:10 refers to the Tribulation, not the Great tribulation.
Are you a mid-trib?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I almost agree, but with one adjustment, Rev 3:10 refers to the Tribulation, not the Great tribulation.
Are you a mid-trib?

I hate these artificial labels. I reject to be defined by them.

 

[RandyK]

A lot of your answers that I have read out here were Post Trib arguments back in the 70s and 80s. If you want a great Post Trib book that is more current get a book called:

Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation​

MisterE, I've finished reading, as well as critiquing, all 3 views, Blaising, Hultberg, and Moo. If you'd like my assessment, in view of our discussion of the "Rapture," let me know!

 

[MisterE]

MisterE, I've finished reading, as well as critiquing, all 3 views, Blaising, Hultberg, and Moo. If you'd like my assessment, in view of our discussion of the "Rapture," let me know!

Yes, please send it to me. My email is edmishoe@yahoo.com