Cool. I'm not a fundamentalist. So, what I'm conveying is that I accept your view as your view. It's not mine, in regards to Paul and what he teaches about salvation, or the idea that one can loose it.
One of the qualifying questions I try to ask myself is, does view X negativity effect salvation, or ones relationship to God.
If someone wants to view salvation as a process that's fine. However, what can go with that, "I think", is a lot of guilt because often people who hold this view fundamentally place a high emphasis on their behavior, thoughts and actions. But, this is not an effective argument against it when it comes to the Christian life, because their is a process, right? Is it a process of salvation, or edification? You see it as salvation, I see it as edification. (The process that is)
In any case, we are both going through a process from the time we come to Christ. Notice I said "come to Christ?" I would normally say saved, but if I said that to you it would be a stumbling block in our discussion, since your not saved just yet.
....little dig to you.
Ultimately I have to lean on two things.
1. My own testimony
2. What the bible says.
I did not seek Christ for say. I did not come down to the front in a Baptist church; I did not accept Christ through peer pressure at Jesus Camp as a child, or participate in the christening ceremony at 12 in the Methodist church. Although I grew up in church, my salvation and relationship with God is not a cultural inclination affixed to me by tradition. I hatted church, did not believe in God and felt that all Christians where nuts.
I found God in a moment of weak emptiness, devoid of self and drained of will. I did the only thing anyone with a knowledge of a God would do at that moment. I prayed to something I did not know or believe in, and that's exactly how I addressed God. "
I don't know you, or believe in you, but if if you exist can you just show me? I need something other than myself & I will devote all I know and understand of myself to knowing and understanding you." and I received a measure of faith at that moment which allowed me to see, know, and understand God, whom I'd no clue of prior. at that moment I was converted.
You may see that as cooperating with God, and I think you'd be right. I could say it's yielding to God, and that's true to. But, it's that same measure of faith which has given me the continence to grow in knowing and understanding God even more over time. (21 years now. It will be 22 years in April 2013) I know the moment I received it, to the hour, and I say I was saved at that moment, not sometime down the road.
The process? Well, that faith has grown exponentially. It's been put to the test, over and over and over. It whispers to me "
trust in me" Should I marry this woman? "
trust in me". I'm afraid. "
trust in me" How will I get through this? "
trust in me" What am I going to do now? "
trust in me" This is not what I planed! "
trust in me" I can't do this. "
trust in me"......that's the best way I can illustrate it.
I am not in charge of me. There is a part of me that is. There is still me, the old man, but the new man is controlled by something else, something more than the old man that keeps saying, "
trust in me". That's Christ Jesus, and the faith given to me by him is the only thing that shapes me. It's not me.
How do I avoid sin? I don't. I am sin. I can't do anything but sin. I'm an expert, but I am saved in two ways. 1. My faith which grows and shapes me, and leads me NOT in to temptation, and 2. His sacrifice which delivers me FROM evil. Christ is changing me and Christ will stand up for me, He has me, owns me, I'm not getting away, going away; I am firmly in his grasp my giving up myself.
I never wanted to know Christ. I just wanted a little guidance, some answers and maybe some direction. What I got was far more than I could have ever known or imagined. I was captured but set free from a prison I did not know I was even in.
Conversely, people hear the word and are drawn to it. They say, "
I want that!
I want to know God.
I want to be God's friend and he mine and
I am going to be the best darn Christian ever. God will be pleased with
me when he sees what a good person
I am.
I'm going to work real hard. "
I've no question about my salvation; don't worry about it or question it one bit, and I don't work at it. It's already been done. I could not second guess it if I tried. I look forward to test of faith so I can just watch it grow. And toughs test come. I have a hunger for God's word daily and I consume it as surly as I have to eat daily. It has to be filled daily, not a duty it's just a need, like breathing. I've no rituals I have to think about, no special clothing, or words or actions that I have to perform.
The reason I don't see the teaching of Paul like others might is because I'm not seeking. You can't seek what you've already found. No one finds something and keeps looking. Sometimes I'll loose something around the house and my wife will say; "It will be in the last place you look,"
of course it will.
Earlier I mentioned that I'm not a fundamentalist. We see people trying real hard to live the Christian life and reading through the bible trying to interpret every last word. They stick on passages and verses and highlight their bibles, seeking, questioning, searching and looking. They make promises to God yet they don't seem to accept the promise he's made to them, and they wonder if they are saved. ? seriously?
seek and you will find He says. place your trust in me and I will offer you life ever lasting.
We are not perfect people, we are fallen and we are sin. We are not GOOD to be saved, we are SAVED to be good, and this is not something we do, but something done unto us by Him. That's it. Do you have to believe that to be saved? No. You don't. But, you could not believe it and not be saved. I can't say, because being saved means giving up the effort to be.
Luther documented this very understanding. He lived a pious life as a monk. he was either the best darn Catholic ever or crazy, but he'd confess and confess until the priest would kick him out of the booth telling him to come back when he actually has something to confess. Crazy monk!
Later, he went through a time of emptiness also. A time where he;d also given up his effort to be saved and simply accepted it with the faith he'd been given.
He wrote this about it. You'll like this because it touches on what Paul said.
I had indeed been captivated with an extraordinary ardor for understanding Paul in the Epistle to the Romans. But up till then it was not the cold blood around the heart, but a single word in Chapter 1 [verse 17], “in it [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed,†that had stood in my way. For I hated that word “righteousness of God,†which, according to the use and custom of all the teachers, I had been taught to understand philosophically regarding the formal or active righteousness, as they called it, with which God is righteous and punishes the unrighteous sinner. Though I lived as a monk without reproach, I felt that I was a sinner before God with an extremely disturbed conscience. I could not believe that he was placated by my satisfaction. I did not love, yes, I hated the righteous God who punishes sinners, and secretly, if not blasphemously, certainly murmuring greatly, I was angry with God, and said, “As if, indeed, it is not enough, that miserable sinners, eternally lost through original sin, are crushed by every kind of calamity by the law of the decalogue [Ten Commandments], without having God add pain to pain by the gospel and also by the gospel threatening us with his righteousness and wrath!†Thus I raged with a fierce and troubled conscience. Nevertheless, I beat importunately upon Paul at that place, most ardently desiring to know what St. Paul wanted. At last, by the mercy of God, meditating day and night, I gave heed to the context of the words, namely, “In it the righteousness of God is revealed, as it is written, ‘He who through faith is righteous shall live.’†There I began to understand that the righteousness of God is that by which the righteous lives by a gift of God, namely by faith. And this is the meaning: the righteousness of God is revealed by the gospel, namely, the passive righteousness with which merciful God justifies us by faith, as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.†Here I felt that I was altogether born again and had entered paradise itself through open gates. There a totally other face of the entire Scripture showed itself to me.
Do you see what Luther is pointing out?
he tried so hard to be righteous and he finally realized he wasn't and did not need to be, nor could he even be, but that God was the righteous one and through his Love and mercy for us, he paid our debt so that we might be righteous through him, IF we trust him. That is to say believe, but that he offers the faith to us for that, and any "process" of salvation is either a process to seek it, or it's a process of edification IN it after we accept it, and that's faith.
