The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[dadof10]

The difficulties lay in several Greek and Hebrew words translated to the English word "Hell", and I believe in several cases it is not well translated, it would be a good thread and I would be wiling to start it?

Sure. There have been plenty of other threads on the existence of Hell.

 

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No, sorry. As you rightly point out, it says "I am", not "some operator within me is". You can try to blame "the tempter", while insulating yourself from sin if you want to, but Paul didn't do that.

And you are welcome to disassociate sin from the devil. Knock yourself out.

Again, sorry. The words are: "For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

So, what fate for the chief of sinners?

This is an obvious reference the afterlife. He says by our works we will either receive "eternal life" or "wrath and fury". If he contrasted "joy and peace" with "wrath and fury", you might have a point. But the words are "eternal life".

Again, Christ doesn't abandon us, we abandon Him, your fabulous argument "that is only the construct that you've been sold. Nothing more" notwithstanding.

Nope, no circular logic there. Huh uh. Fortunately one of the above is The Savior, the other, not so much.

Where does Jesus speak to the "tempter" here? You are totally wrenching the words Of Jesus out of context. He is speaking to the same PEOPLE who say to HIM "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'" Are you seriously trying to make the case that the same ones who cast out demons IN JESUS NAME are "tempters" who are REALLY doing the casting? You must be joking...

I don't expect you to hear what I hear. Think about it for awhile and it may come to you.

In your view, Jesus must be the one with the poor eyesight. He looks at us and sees demons...

Again, you are welcome to disconnect the devil from sins.

Anyone with common sense is "void" on these matters. I have heard this argument from others on your side and it never ceases to amaze me that your whole "uniqueness" comes from ONE misinterpreted verse of Scripture. It's like the "thorn" in his flesh could ONLY be a tempter, and that all the wrath due to Paul's sin will go onto him instead of Paul. Quite a stretch.

That's merely your claim.

Paul himself states it's a messenger of Satan. I really don't care how you want to read the fact to make that not so. Fact is fact regardless of spin.

Paul own claims:

-Indwelling sin was not him
-Evil present with him
-The chief of sinners
-A messenger of Satan in his flesh
-Temptation in his flesh
-Did evil

I'm not denying that Satan influences our behavior.

Well bravo for seeing the obvious.

Jesus taught this to be a fact in Mark 4:15 (and a myriad of other scriptures.) Paul showed that fact 'in' himself as proof of the fact.

So did likewise John, Peter and Judas.

I am a HUGE C.S. Lewis fan. What is ridiculous is the contention that we are saved and the TEMPTER is punished. What's even more ridiculous, is the notion that we are not responsible for our own personal sin, the "tempter" is. This view has no basis in Scripture or reality.

Uh, in case you missed the point no one makes the tempter 'responsible.'

What "vast amounts of Scripture"? You need to show where Scripture teaches ANYWHERE that we are not responsible for our behavior, some demon is. Can you find me ONE verse to support this ludicrous claim? It's not only Catholics that find this view repugnant, but every other Protestant denomination. This isn't a mainstream view.

Again, not the point whatsoever. Any half wit should be able to see two parties in mankind. It is literally pasted across the entirety of the Gospels.

No one is denying demonic INFLUENCE.

Well again, bravo for seeing the obvious.

it's just like any other influences from outside. Where you go off the deep end is that these "tempters" are the ones RESPONSIBLE for our personal sin and they are the ones who GET PUNISHED FOR OUR SINS. This is what you can't prove by Scripture.

You are welcome to divide the math however you please. Fact is there IS more than just the man involved.

Agreed. He would NEVER abandon us, but we, through our behavior (rejecting His love for the false promises of the tempter), abandon Him.

Again, faulty logic. God can and does permit and allow believers to fall under control of Satan in this present life.

Does not mean whatsoever that God in Christ abandons them as you yourself affirm. You will not find a single named believer in the New Testament stated to be lost to hell. Not a one.

Fall in this present life? Unquestionably.

If your own salvation remains at best by your units measure, as a possibility, then there is also a possibility you don't know you are saved because you don't know.

You only MAY be. And that will remain a best guess only on your part.

Hoo Ray! I might be saved.

Uh, OK then. Maybe not?

s

 

[dadof10]

And you are welcome to disassociate sin from the devil. Knock yourself out.

Where did I do that? Straw-man.

So, what fate for the chief of sinners?

He is in Heaven because he repented of his sins, not because God looked at his tempter and sent HIM to hell instead of Paul.

Nope, no circular logic there. Huh uh. Fortunately one of the above is The Savior, the other, not so much.

Do you know what circular logic is? You may disagree with my point, but there is nothing circular about my argument.

"For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

Your argument is that this refers to the PRESENT life. You said, in reference to this passage and "every damnation Word of God" that "if the tempter leads any believer into sin, sin being of the devil (1 John 3:8) there will be consequences in this present life."

These verses refer to the AFTERLIFE because the words are "ETERNAL LIFE". Will you please respond to this point instead of manufacturing a fallacy to distract from your lack of exegesis?

I don't expect you to hear what I hear. Think about it for awhile and it may come to you.

If it ever does, I will question my sanity.

Again, you are welcome to disconnect the devil from sins.

Again, show me where I did this.

That's merely your claim.

Paul himself states it's a messenger of Satan. I really don't care how you want to read the fact to make that not so. Fact is fact regardless of spin.

Let's look at my claim:

"Anyone with common sense is "void" on these matters. I have heard this argument from others on your side and it never ceases to amaze me that your whole "uniqueness" comes from ONE misinterpreted verse of Scripture. It's like the "thorn" in his flesh could ONLY be a tempter, and that all the wrath due to Paul's sin will go onto him instead of Paul. Quite a stretch."

Here are the verses that your entire unique doctrine rests.

"And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; 9 but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

If this is an actual demon, why does Paul call him "it"? This could very well be metaphorical. The "thorn" could be a weakness within Paul metaphorically given to him by Satan. Even if you are right and this is a "tempter" who is a "thorn" in Paul's side, it doesn't make your case. You need to prove that Paul believes this "tempter" will feel the wrath of God INSTEAD OF PAUL, and when Paul sins, it's the "tempter" who is doing the evil, not Paul.

Paul own claims:

-Indwelling sin was not him

Where does Paul claim this?

-Evil present with him

Like it is with everyone.

-The chief of sinners

-A messenger of Satan in his flesh

Possibly.

-Temptation in his flesh

Same thing.

-Did evil

HE did evil or his "tempter" did evil?

Well bravo for seeing the obvious.

Jesus taught this to be a fact in Mark 4:15 (and a myriad of other scriptures.) Paul showed that fact 'in' himself as proof of the fact.

So did likewise John, Peter and Judas.

Ignoring snarky comment.

Uh, in case you missed the point no one makes the tempter 'responsible.'

Then who is?

Again, not the point whatsoever. Any half wit should be able to see two parties in mankind. It is literally pasted across the entirety of the Gospels.

I'll ignore the personal attack also. I realize it must be frustrating defending a ludicrous doctrine, although I have never had to personally do it.

There are not "two parties" in mankind, one on my right shoulder telling me to do what's right and another on my left telling me to sin. There is an inborn sin nature within man due to the Fall. There are "tempters" and we are drawn to sin. When WE, PERSONALLY give into our sin nature, we are rejecting God and effecting our salvation. This is what's taught throughout Scripture, not the cartoon you are putting forth as serious theology.

Well again, bravo for seeing the obvious.

Again, ignoring snarkiness.

You are welcome to divide the math however you please. Fact is there IS more than just the man involved.

Again, I never claimed that demons don't exist (remember "bravo for seeing the obvious"?), or that they don't attempt to take an active role in our lives. Please try to move on.

Again, faulty logic. God can and does permit and allow believers to fall under control of Satan in this present life.

The verses I posted obviously refer to the afterlife. That's what "kingdom of heaven" and "eternal life" mean.

Does not mean whatsoever that God in Christ abandons them as you yourself affirm. You will not find a single named believer in the New Testament stated to be lost to hell. Not a one.

Fall in this present life? Unquestionably.

Why does it have to be a "named believer"? Jesus Himself says "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven,...

How can you say this refers to "this present life" when Jesus Himself says it refers to "the kingdom of Heaven"??

"...but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matt. 7 21-23)

Why don't you try actually answering the question posed instead of blowing it off with the weak and arrogant "I don't expect you to hear what I hear..."

Here it is again:

"Where does Jesus speak to the "tempter" here? You are totally wrenching the words Of Jesus out of context. He is speaking to the same PEOPLE who say to HIM "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'" Are you seriously trying to make the case that the same ones who cast out demons IN JESUS NAME are "tempters" who are REALLY doing the casting? You must be joking..."

 

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Where did I do that? Straw-man.
He is in Heaven because he repented of his sins, not because God looked at his tempter and sent HIM to hell instead of Paul.

Paul was turned from the blinding power of darkness and Satan unto God in Christ. In that he became dominant over that power that he still carried.

Do you get this picture or not?

Don't you know that we all are called to turn away from 'this fact' within us all?

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

You are welcome to claim only yourself as the evil one in that equation. To me that is a function of spiritual blindness.

Do you know what circular logic is? You may disagree with my point, but there is nothing circular about my argument.

Yes, your logic is completely circular. You admit out of one side of your mouth that God in Christ NEVER leaves us. Yet 'we' can leave Him.

That is in fact circular logic. And it is a logical fallacy used to condemn other believers.

"For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

Your argument is that this refers to the PRESENT life. You said, in reference to this passage and "every damnation Word of God" that "if the tempter leads any believer into sin, sin being of the devil (1 John 3:8) there will be consequences in this present life."

Uh, yeah. Your point is what? Since God in Christ 'never' left us I expect that such led into blindness will be saved regardless. Remember, one of the parties is our Savior. The other, not.

These verses refer to the AFTERLIFE because the words are "ETERNAL LIFE". Will you please respond to this point instead of manufacturing a fallacy to distract from your lack of exegesis?

If your claim is that you are earning your salvation, by all means save yourself.

If it ever does, I will question my sanity.

Or you may observe the 'reality' that Paul showed upon himself and realize the division is internal and from our enemy.

"Anyone with common sense is "void" on these matters. I have heard this argument from others on your side and it never ceases to amaze me that your whole "uniqueness" comes from ONE misinterpreted verse of Scripture. It's like the "thorn" in his flesh could ONLY be a tempter, and that all the wrath due to Paul's sin will go onto him instead of Paul. Quite a stretch."

Here are the verses that your entire unique doctrine rests.

I certainly understand that Paul can outright state he had a devil, a messenger of Satan in his own flesh and other people can't see the fact of it. Nothing more than blocked reading skills.

"And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; 9 but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

If this is an actual demon,

There is no if in that fact.

why does Paul call him "it"?

Oh, yeah, let's focus on the term 'it' and totally miss the big red bold? lol

This could very well be metaphorical. The "thorn" could be a weakness within Paul metaphorically given to him by Satan. Even if you are right and this is a "tempter" who is a "thorn" in Paul's side, it doesn't make your case. You need to prove that Paul believes this "tempter" will feel the wrath of God INSTEAD OF PAUL, and when Paul sins, it's the "tempter" who is doing the evil, not Paul.

Yeah, let's speculate some more and totally miss the big red bold? lol

Typical is all I can say.

enjoy!

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[dadof10]

Paul was turned from the blinding power of darkness and Satan unto God in Christ. In that he became dominant over that power that he still carried.

Do you get this picture or not?

Don't you know that we all are called to turn away from 'this fact' within us all?

I get that you believe this because your sect teaches it. I simply don't.

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

You are welcome to claim only yourself as the evil one in that equation. To me that is a function of spiritual blindness.

So, to you a "conscience" is a person? You need to get away from this "angel on my shoulder" notion. Please show me where this is taught in Scripture.

Yes, your logic is completely circular. You admit out of one side of your mouth that God in Christ NEVER leaves us. Yet 'we' can leave Him.

That is in fact circular logic. And it is a logical fallacy used to condemn other believers.

This is laughable. So, if my wife and I are in the house and she leaves, it is circular reasoning to say "she left, I didn't"? If I go visit a prisoner and then leave, would it be circular reasoning to say "I left him, he can't leave me"?

Since Christ is eternal and His love is eternal, it is accurate to say He will never leave us. He will never turn His back on us. He is always waiting for even the most hardened sinner to return (or turn) to Him. We, on the other hand, are NOT eternal and have free will given to us by God. We have the ability to turn from God. This is not a "fallacy" it is simple common sense.

Uh, yeah. Your point is what? Since God in Christ 'never' left us I expect that such led into blindness will be saved regardless. Remember, one of the parties is our Savior. The other, not.

You need to prove this. You have not even come close to posting one verse that backs up this silliness. Cartoons are not Scriptural, so when you see Daffy Duck with an evil Daffy on one shoulder and an angelic Daffy on the other, that isn't Scriptural and doesn't count as proof.

If your claim is that you are earning your salvation, by all means save yourself.

My claim is we must cooperate with God's Grace to be saved and that we can, through our free will, lose that salvation. I don't believe I can "save myself", but I also don't believe that I am saved from this moment forward and if I sin it really doesn't effect my salvation, only my temporal happiness.

Or you may observe the 'reality' that Paul showed upon himself and realize the division is internal and from our enemy.

Proof, please. How many times is it now that I have asked for you to back up your sect's doctrines? Three...Four?

I certainly understand that Paul can outright state he had a devil, a messenger of Satan in his own flesh and other people can't see the fact of it. Nothing more than blocked reading skills.


There is no if in that fact.


Oh, yeah, let's focus on the term 'it' and totally miss the big red bold? lol



Yeah, let's speculate some more and totally miss the big red bold? lol

Typical is all I can say.

enjoy!

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It is reasonable to think the "it" Paul is talking about is his weakness. It is equally reasonable to believe this is an "agent of Satan", an actual "tempter". So, suppose you're right and it is a tempter, this verse still doesn't prove your point that God will punish "the tempter" instead of us for OUR sins. What's "typical" in this conversation is the lack of answers from people from your sect.

So, I guess you've given up even trying to make sense of this fantasy in light of actual Scripture. I'll post the verses and questions one more time, after that I'll just chalk it up to "spiritual blindness".

Why does it have to be a "named believer"? Jesus Himself says "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven,...

How can you say this refers to "this present life" when Jesus Himself says it refers to "the kingdom of Heaven"??

"...but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matt. 7 21-23)

Why don't you try actually answering the question posed instead of blowing it off with the weak and arrogant "I don't expect you to hear what I hear..."

Here it is again:

"Where does Jesus speak to the "tempter" here? You are totally wrenching the words Of Jesus out of context. He is speaking to the same PEOPLE who say to HIM "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'" Are you seriously trying to make the case that the same ones who cast out demons IN JESUS NAME are "tempters" who are REALLY doing the casting? You must be joking..."

 

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I get that you believe this because your sect teaches it. I simply don't.

My sect?

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil;

I know this fact offends most people who do not like to encounter 'the reality' that the tempter operates in mind and heart. That I understand.

So, to you a "conscience" is a person? You need to get away from this "angel on my shoulder" notion. Please show me where this is taught in Scripture.

I'm not interested in your self subscribed fantasies about the tempter.

You've already implicated same in sin and temptation. That operator does his thing in the heart.

It's not just 'you' there inside the flesh box.

This is laughable. So, if my wife and I are in the house and she leaves, it is circular reasoning to say "she left, I didn't"? If I go visit a prisoner and then leave, would it be circular reasoning to say "I left him, he can't leave me"?

Jesus never leaves us. Where is the Spirit of Christ? Do you even know?

Since Christ is eternal and His love is eternal, it is accurate to say He will never leave us. He will never turn His back on us. He is always waiting for even the most hardened sinner to return (or turn) to Him. We, on the other hand, are NOT eternal and have free will given to us by God. We have the ability to turn from God. This is not a "fallacy" it is simple common sense.

Your fallacy is one of 'externalizing' the Spirit of Christ. And you probably do the same thing with the workings of the tempter.

You need to prove this. You have not even come close to posting one verse that backs up this silliness. Cartoons are not Scriptural, so when you see Daffy Duck with an evil Daffy on one shoulder and an angelic Daffy on the other, that isn't Scriptural and doesn't count as proof.

As stated, not interested in your personal blindness about the fact that temptations and evil come from and originate within the mind and heart.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

My claim is we must cooperate with God's Grace to be saved and that we can, through our free will, lose that salvation. I don't believe I can "save myself", but I also don't believe that I am saved from this moment forward and if I sin it really doesn't effect my salvation, only my temporal happiness.

When did you stop sinning?

???

You may as well witness how God in Christ MAY NOT save you.

We might be better off taking that witness from you seeing that IS your witness.

s

 

[dadof10]

My sect?

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil;

I know this fact offends most people who do not like to encounter 'the reality' that the tempter operates in mind and heart. That I understand.



I'm not interested in your self subscribed fantasies about the tempter.

You've already implicated same in sin and temptation. That operator does his thing in the heart.

It's not just 'you' there inside the flesh box.

Jesus never leaves us. Where is the Spirit of Christ? Do you even know?

Your fallacy is one of 'externalizing' the Spirit of Christ. And you probably do the same thing with the workings of the tempter.

As stated, not interested in your personal blindness about the fact that temptations and evil come from and originate within the mind and heart.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

When did you stop sinning?

???

You may as well witness how God in Christ MAY NOT save you.

We might be better off taking that witness from you seeing that IS your witness.

Ok. Let's assume you're right. For the sake of argument, I'll grant you the point. Temptation comes from within the man and the tempter lives in there with him. Please show me from Scripture where this tempter is PUNISHED BY GOD FOR THE SINS COMMITTED BY THE MAN.

This is what you have been claiming from the beginning, and this is what you can't prove and neither can the leaders of your sect.

 

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Ok. Let's assume you're right.

There is no 'let's assume I'm right.' It's an open and obvious scriptural fact for anyone to see.

For the sake of argument, I'll grant you the point. Temptation comes from within the man and the tempter lives in there with him. Please show me from Scripture where this tempter is PUNISHED BY GOD FOR THE SINS COMMITTED BY THE MAN.

Already said that in this present life a believer who sows to the flesh will reap both destruction and loss in the next life. That does not mean they are not saved.

As to the fate of Satan and his, I'd think we'd both see the obvious on that matter.

This is what you have been claiming from the beginning, and this is what you can't prove and neither can the leaders of your sect.

It's only a question of our basis. Your basis is you.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If I was the basis of my salvation there would have been no need to come unto our Savior to Save. And if I didn't believe He was sufficient to the task I probably would have passed, again in favor of myself.

As you might tell I have no basis of confidence for salvation being anything of myself.

s

 

[dadof10]

Already said that in this present life a believer who sows to the flesh will reap both destruction and loss in the next life. That does not mean they are not saved.

As to the fate of Satan and his, I'd think we'd both see the obvious on that matter.

In the next life? Where have you "already said" this? Simply go back through your posts and paste your words. I must have missed it. So, the believer who sows in the flesh will be punished in the NEXT LIFE, yet be saved? I agree. We call it Purgatory.

You just keep dodging the question. If I belonged to a sect that taught un-Scriptural drivel, I would too. Here is your contention.

The crux of all these matters of judgement/sowing-reaping wrath revolves around the fact that Paul showed for himself. That any believer can be taken down in their battles with the adversary, the devil. That places that operator within the mind and heart via temptation.

Few can understand that every damnation Word of God does apply to that working and worker that does tempt us and causes us to fall. Most believers tend to isolate themselves from those texts, but they do certainly apply. If the tempter leads any believer into sin, sin being of the devil (1 John 3:8) there will be consequences in this present life.

None of this means that God in Christ has abandoned ship in our behalf.
Only that He also works 'actively' against that other worker and working.

I posted these verses: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'" (Matt. 7 21-23)

To which you replied:

I fully expect to hear those Words. Why? See above. If the tempter operates in my mind and heart I fully expect those Words of Jesus to be spoken to MY FACE, yet apply to the tempter.

Do you understand that principle? I do not fear Gods Words. Any of them. And that is because I understand 'whom' they are meant for.

This is what I am asking you to prove. Not where the "tempter" resides, but where Scripture teaches that the TEMPTER will be punished for the sins he seduces us into committing.

It's only a question of our basis. Your basis is you.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If I was the basis of my salvation there would have been no need to come unto our Savior to Save. And if I didn't believe He was sufficient to the task I probably would have passed, again in favor of myself.

As you might tell I have no basis of confidence for salvation being anything of myself.

Let me try this one more time. I do not save myself, God saves me through the blood of Christ. I must cooperate with His Grace or I can lose my salvation. Both the will to work and he work itself are also gifts from God. I, myself, am doing NOTHING to earn salvation. You believe a person must have faith. You must "accept" Jesus. If you don't, you are not saved, correct? You MUST DO something to be saved. Does this make you, yourself "the basis" of your salvation, or are you cooperating with the Grace of God?

 

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In the next life? Where have you "already said" this? Simply go back through your posts and paste your words. I must have missed it. So, the believer who sows in the flesh will be punished in the NEXT LIFE, yet be saved? I agree. We call it Purgatory.

I give the RCC a little credit on that matter for better sight than most.

You just keep dodging the question. If I belonged to a sect that taught un-Scriptural drivel, I would too. Here is your contention.

It depends on how fine anyone seeks to slice these matters. Are there matters worthy of consideration and contemplation. Undoubtedly.

But anytime a believer by those measures puts the faith of another in jeopardy who has simply called upon God in Christ to save them by those measures have not done themselves any favors in those measures. Their faith has gone beyond simple faith and into other bizarre arenas.

Putting the basis of salvation on a difference of opinion of 4 words for example in the split between the RCC and the EO. You see 'they' were the ones that started that whole mess. It hasn't stopped yet.

And it won't.

Some step back from that fray and remember their simple plea of faith.

I posted these verses: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'" (Matt. 7 21-23)

To which you replied:

This is what I am asking you to prove. Not where the "tempter" resides, but where Scripture teaches that the TEMPTER will be punished for the sins he seduces us into committing.

I already told you why I fully expect to hear those Words and why. I don't consider myself alone in heart or in mind. The presence of the tempter assuredly is operational within me. And I believe Paul makes a pretty clear case for that same fact himself. So it's not like that matter is without precedent.

Do you think for a minute that the pope would even state openly as Paul did that evil was present with him, that he is, not was, the chief of sinners, that he has a devil in his flesh, that temptation is in his flesh?

No, that man will speak exactly NONE of those facts because those particular truthful matters are not within him to do so.

He sells a completely different bill of nonsense to his adherents on these subjects. He claims freewill regardless of the obvious 'other will' working via temptation. He discards the fact that sin is OF THE DEVIL and blames only the believers. Then he distributes total forgiveness for however brief of a period that lasts until the next exercise of rituals and practices.

I learned from my own experiences with these matters to look deeper as to 'why' that happens. And the answers were always there in text and have been for thousands of years. They just remain blocked from view in many hearts.

Just as the Gospel itself was technically in the Old Testament as well, it was just blocked from sight.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Jesus came and showed openly WHY that blinding happened in them, and that same working continues to work to this very moment:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Now, you are welcome to discount this fact 'personally.' I did myself for many years. Everytime I read that same scripture I heard a voice in my own heart that said 'this doesn't happen to you because you are a christian.'

One day I saw differently, that it DOES happen to me and this placed that working 'in my own heart.' At that point many other scriptures on this fact also opened up to me 'personally.' Don't ask me why. It just happened.

You see it can be put right in front of anyone and unless and until God in Christ 'allows' a person to see it as a fact for themselves, they will not and CAN NOT SEE IT.

Let me try this one more time. I do not save myself, God saves me through the blood of Christ. I must cooperate with His Grace or I can lose my salvation.

And you are slated to stay in the perpetual state of 'maybe.' That's as far as you'll go. Your cooperation is in fact your savior.

s

 

[eddif]

John 14:6 I am the way, the truth and the life: no man comes unto the father, but by me

Mississippi folks know little about toll roads. We wander around on dirt roads and drive sub-standard autos. LOL

Repentance is the first step in heading for the toll road. John the baptist told them to repent and head for the toll booth (believe in the one who comes after me).

The toll booth payment is paid by Jesus (faith in his work).

The Holy Spirit does the tune-up / supplies the power needed for the minimum speed on the toll road.

Please excuse my symbolism. Repentance; Jesus work, Holy Spirit work can be seen, IMHO, in seperate ways but each being part of the total experience. I am sure this fails in some ways to carry every needed thought.

eddif

 

[rrowell]

I will do my best to abide by the forum rules, but they should be fair!
If you deleted my message refuting the catholic doctrine, why do you not delete the posts that are a proponent there of?

 

[dadof10]

I give the RCC a little credit on that matter for better sight than most.
It depends on how fine anyone seeks to slice these matters. Are there matters worthy of consideration and contemplation. Undoubtedly.

But anytime a believer by those measures puts the faith of another in jeopardy who has simply called upon God in Christ to save them by those measures have not done themselves any favors in those measures. Their faith has gone beyond simple faith and into other bizarre arenas.

Again, dodging the question. Nothing new here.

Putting the basis of salvation on a difference of opinion of 4 words for example in the split between the RCC and the EO. You see 'they' were the ones that started that whole mess. It hasn't stopped yet.

And it won't.

Some step back from that fray and remember their simple plea of faith.

The Great Schism has nothing to do with the questions I am asking, it's just another dodge.

I already told you why I fully expect to hear those Words and why. I don't consider myself alone in heart or in mind. The presence of the tempter assuredly is operational within me. And I believe Paul makes a pretty clear case for that same fact himself. So it's not like that matter is without precedent.

Yes, you have told me why, but you have not put forth a single verse of Scripture to back it up. If Paul makes the case, it should be easy to cut and paste his words. Where are the words that prove that your tempter will be punished for your sins?

Do you think for a minute that the pope would even state openly as Paul did that evil was present with him, that he is, not was, the chief of sinners, that he has a devil in his flesh, that temptation is in his flesh?

No, that man will speak exactly NONE of those facts because those particular truthful matters are not within him to do so.

He sells a completely different bill of nonsense to his adherents on these subjects. He claims freewill regardless of the obvious 'other will' working via temptation. He discards the fact that sin is OF THE DEVIL and blames only the believers. Then he distributes total forgiveness for however brief of a period that lasts until the next exercise of rituals and practices.

I learned from my own experiences with these matters to look deeper as to 'why' that happens. And the answers were always there in text and have been for thousands of years. They just remain blocked from view in many hearts.

Another attempt at distraction. Post the verses.

Just as the Gospel itself was technically in the Old Testament as well, it was just blocked from sight.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Jesus came and showed openly WHY that blinding happened in them, and that same working continues to work to this very moment:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Now, you are welcome to discount this fact 'personally.' I did myself for many years. Everytime I read that same scripture I heard a voice in my own heart that said 'this doesn't happen to you because you are a christian.'

One day I saw differently, that it DOES happen to me and this placed that working 'in my own heart.' At that point many other scriptures on this fact also opened up to me 'personally.' Don't ask me why. It just happened.

You see it can be put right in front of anyone and unless and until God in Christ 'allows' a person to see it as a fact for themselves, they will not and CAN NOT SEE IT.

We can not see your view because it's not in Scripture. Did it ever occur to you that maybe it's your tempter that is putting these un-Scriptural doctrines in your mind?

And you are slated to stay in the perpetual state of 'maybe.' That's as far as you'll go. Your cooperation is in fact your savior.

If you have to "accept Jesus" to be saved, so is yours.

 

[smaller]

Yes, you have told me why, but you have not put forth a single verse of Scripture to back it up. If Paul makes the case, it should be easy to cut and paste his words. Where are the words that prove that your tempter will be punished for your sins?

The tempter is linked to every sin and we know the final fate of his and his own. This should be relatively simple to observe.

We can not see your view because it's not in Scripture.

We all turn from our own internally carried 'evil.'

To say that it is 'just us' though is a severe misnomer and a missed sight of facts.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe it's your tempter that is putting these un-Scriptural doctrines in your mind?

It occurs to me that the tempter really doesn't like anyone seeing his stronghold.

If you have to "accept Jesus" to be saved, so is yours.

I am of the irresistible Grace and OSAS camp in this matter.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My point to Jethro (which he knows from a prior conversation) is that when Paul uses the word "works", he is speaking specifically of "works of the law" or circumcision. He doesn't mean "everything done" which is the contention by most "faith alone" adherents. If a work is defined as anything that anyone does, it must include the ACT of accepting Jesus or HAVING faith. If not, then Paul couldn't have been talking about EVERYTHING, right? There are exceptions, like faith and keeping commandments.

Nobody is justified (made rigtheous before God) by keeping commandments...any commandment. Behavior does not solicit a declaration of righteousness. Faith does...all by itself. Then, through that faith, we uphold the law (Romans 3:31 I think).

As long as we continue to trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins (apart from our behavior to earn that forgiveness) we stand justified before God. But if we stop trusting in the sacrifice of Christ that continually ministers before God on our behalf in heaven we will cease to be justified before God. You must continue in faith to the very end to be saved. Faith that can be seen in an upholding of the law, specifically the royal law of scripture "love your neighbor as yourself". Keeping that law doesn't justify anybody. It shows a person to be justified before God through faith in Jesus' sacrifice--the sacrifice that continually stands between us and God in heaven. Our 'job' is to keep trusting in that sacrifice. That is what we are to 'do' to be saved on the Day of Wrath--keep trusting in Christ's sacrifice.

 

[dadof10]

Nobody is justified (made rigtheous before God) by keeping commandments...any commandment. Behavior does not solicit a declaration of righteousness. Faith does...all by itself. Then, through that faith, we uphold the law (Romans 3:31 I think).

This seems like a change from your previous posts. When Paul speaks of "works" does he mean "behaviors" or ANYTHING done, like you posted previously?

As long as we continue to trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins (apart from our behavior to earn that forgiveness) we stand justified before God.

Wouldn't "continuing to trust" be a behavior? How is "trusting" not a "behavior", yet NOT coveting or NOT stealing is?

But if we stop trusting in the sacrifice of Christ that continually ministers before God on our behalf in heaven we will cease to be justified before God. You must continue in faith to the very end to be saved. Faith that can be seen in an upholding of the law, specifically the royal law of scripture "love your neighbor as yourself".

Well, this is definitely a change. You argued for OSAS previously, now a person CAN lose his salvation? Why the change?

Keeping that law doesn't justify anybody. It shows a person to be justified before God through faith in Jesus' sacrifice--the sacrifice that continually stands between us and God in heaven.

This is not taught in Scripture.

Our 'job' is to keep trusting in that sacrifice. That is what we are to 'do' to be saved on the Day of Wrath--keep trusting in Christ's sacrifice.

As long as you believe we must DO something and continue to have a certain attitude or behavior in order to be saved, why stop with faith alone? Scripture says we are saved by attitudes and behaviors other than faith alone, like baptism and keeping the commandments. If you are going to be (what you call) a "works salvation advocate", why not go all the way? ;)

 

[dadof10]

The tempter is linked to every sin and we know the final fate of his and his own. This should be relatively simple to observe.


We all turn from our own internally carried 'evil.'

To say that it is 'just us' though is a severe misnomer and a missed sight of facts.



It occurs to me that the tempter really doesn't like anyone seeing his stronghold.


I am of the irresistible Grace and OSAS camp in this matter.

s

Nothing new here. Moving on.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This seems like a change from your previous posts. When Paul speaks of "works" does he mean "behaviors" or ANYTHING done, like you posted previously?

No change.

"Works" is referring to righteous behavior. And not only that, but righteous behavior done with the expectation of earning a declaration of righteous for doing that work. But Paul says a declaration of righteousness is a gift given to someone on the basis of their faith in Christ, not earned for their good behavior.

Wouldn't "continuing to trust" be a behavior? How is "trusting" not a "behavior", yet NOT coveting or NOT stealing is?

No. Trusting is not a behavior, but it can be seen in one's behavior. Trusting in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins causes the person who is truly doing that (trusting in the blood) to behave differently. This means doing certain things, and not doing certain things.

Good behavior is the result of a genuine faith and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Not a way to earn that forgiveness. That is impossible to do. That standard (earning justification through good behavior) is too high for fallen flesh. That's why salvation has to be through the forgiveness of sins, not through the merit of righteous behavior. That's what the gospel, the 'good news', is all about. What the doing of the law was powerless to do (make someone righteous), God did by sending Christ to be a perfect sacrifice that completely and forever cleanses a person of unrighteousness...that is, as long as they keep trusting in that sacrifice.

Well, this is definitely a change. You argued for OSAS previously, now a person CAN lose his salvation? Why the change?

No change. In fact, somewhere either in this thread or the other one related to this topic I corrected somebody about just assuming I was OSAS. I don't know if salvation really is OSAS. I just know the Bible tells us we must persevere in faith to the very end, or we have believed in vain. Perhaps I'm more in the ISAS camp. That is if I found it absolutely necessary to determine if one can be truly justified and then not for whatever reason. But as it is, I don't find it necessary to settle that debate. The Bible is clear, we must have the same faith we started out with to be saved on the Day of Wrath. And we know that we are continuing in the faith that justifies by how we behave.

This is not taught in Scripture.

"...I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

As long as you believe we must DO something and continue to have a certain attitude or behavior in order to be saved, why stop with faith alone?

Because faith is the sole conduit through which a person is declared righteous. People get confused because being declared righteous by faith in the promise that God will forgive you through Jesus Christ's blood will change a person into a new creation that behaves righteously more and more. So it is in that sense that you can save yourself by what you do. Faith that manifests itself in "love your neighbor as yourself" (the royal command of scripture) is what saves. If your faith does not change you into an evermore obedient person, you do not have the faith that justifies, the justification that is freely given to a person apart from the merit of their righteous behavior.

Scripture says we are saved by attitudes and behaviors other than faith alone, like baptism and keeping the commandments. If you are going to be (what you call) a "works salvation advocate", why not go all the way? ;)

Yes, figuratively, when you have the faith that justifies (all by itself), and that faith finds expression in "love your neighbor as yourself" you are in effect saving yourself through that work. I don't know if 'figure of speech' is the right description of that or not, but the whole counsel of scripture shows us that thinking you literally earn a declaration of righteousness by your good behavior is not how men are saved, and is in fact quite impossible to do.

 

[Elijah674]

I am saying, if one says they are saved because they repented, which is something they did, then they are claiming salvation by works, which is against scripture. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If so, then who needed the Holy Spirit in the first place? Acts 5:32's No/Obedience finds NO Salvation!

 

[heymikey80]

Jesus said to work for everlasting life.....

no work = no everlasting life

work = everlasting life

Jesus actually said in comparison work for the food that endures to everlasting life -- not for everlasting life, itself. Working for something you will have forever is not the point, as it's granted, many works endure forever.

Jesus actually said the Son of Man would give you the food to everlasting life.

Jesus actually said not to work for perishable food. This would be starvation if it were taken literally -- yet we're supposed to take Jesus' contrast literally.

John 6:27