The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[heymikey80]

Faith is not given to you, it is acquired, to have faith in something requires knowing something exists even though you may not see it, a man has to know it is there before he can believe it...

Again, that's a prerequisite, that's not a cause of faith. Just because Kim Jong Un exists doesn't mean I have faith in him.

Secondarily, are you really asserting the Spirit of God is not the cause of persons having faith? "For it has been given to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" Pp 1:29 It's certainly not due to your works, as that's rejected explicitly and uncontroversially: "saved ... not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ep 2:9

, before he can have faith in it, and there must now be a choice to have it or not, therefor works is a requirement of faith... :

Acts 14:27 (KJV)
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Opened the door says they now have a choice to go through it, or not...

The door is to enter the kingdom of God: "encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God." Ac 14:22 The door itself is faith.

Again the "works" Paul is referring to is taken out of context, it is not the same works James speaks of in James 2:17, the "works" Paul is talking about is the "Jewish Law" the "Jewish Law" aka Old Testament will not save you, these people Paul was speaking to were going by the "Old Law" or as Paul put it "works"

As Romans 2:12-16 obliterates this distinction, I neither assert Paul is talking about James' "works", nor that Paul is talking about "Jewish Law" as if to mean circumcision alone. No, it's works of a good Law: "So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Rom 7:12 So Paul would include good works among works of the good Law.

and not the New Law NT requiring faith, the same faith James speaks of in James 2:17 that includes "works" a transitive verb meaning to carry on the operation of, meaning once you have the faith, you must "work" to keep it...

Grammatically, "works" is a noun in James 2:17, not a verb. And it's not constructed this way in James' speech. "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." A dead faith is not a faith any more than a dead dog is a dog. It's a carcass, a deceased faith, a faith no more.

On this "part" of the operation I cannot disagree... faith is a part of the conduit, it cometh by hearing, followed by believing(faith), followed by repentance, followed by confessing, followed by baptism, followed by working to stay faithful is the full conduit leading to salvation.

As hearing is a prerequisite, not a cause of faith, again the issue is what's a cause of what.

Beyond that I don't think my distinctions with your order of events makes much difference at this point. :peace

so as to your second part I cannot agree as a "work" is required to obtain faith, you must go through the door opened to you (a choice must be made, an action taken) Acts 14:27

As described above, Acts 14:27 doesn't demand this view.

 

[WIP]

to have faith in something requires knowing something exists even though you may not see it, a man has to know it is there before he can believe it...

I think having faith in something (ergo, God) is believing without having seen. Believing is knowing.

 

[dadof10]

No change.

"Works" is referring to righteous behavior. And not only that, but righteous behavior done with the expectation of earning a declaration of righteous for doing that work.

Again, I agree.

But Paul says a declaration of righteousness is a gift given to someone on the basis of their faith in Christ, not earned for their good behavior.

He doesn't say "good behavior", he says "works", which means specifically "works of the law". He is NOT referring to charity, baptism, keeping the commandments, etc, otherwise he is contradicting other Scripture. You have to prove that when Paul uses the word "works" he means "ALL BEHAVIOR".

No. Trusting is not a behavior, but it can be seen in one's behavior. Trusting in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins causes the person who is truly doing that (trusting in the blood) to behave differently. This means doing certain things, and not doing certain things. Good behavior is the result of a genuine faith and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Not a way to earn that forgiveness.

Again, I agree that nothing we can do will EARN forgiveness, or salvation or justification, or anything else. I have never claimed otherwise.

That is impossible to do. That standard (earning justification through good behavior) is too high for fallen flesh. That's why salvation has to be through the forgiveness of sins, not through the merit of righteous behavior. That's what the gospel, the 'good news', is all about. What the doing of the law was powerless to do (make someone righteous), God did by sending Christ to be a perfect sacrifice that completely and forever cleanses a person of unrighteousness...that is, as long as they keep trusting in that sacrifice.

Agree.

No change. In fact, somewhere either in this thread or the other one related to this topic I corrected somebody about just assuming I was OSAS. I don't know if salvation really is OSAS. I just know the Bible tells us we must persevere in faith to the very end, or we have believed in vain. Perhaps I'm more in the ISAS camp. That is if I found it absolutely necessary to determine if one can be truly justified and then not for whatever reason. But as it is, I don't find it necessary to settle that debate. The Bible is clear, we must have the same faith we started out with to be saved on the Day of Wrath. And we know that we are continuing in the faith that justifies by how we behave.

OK. So if we don't "continue to trust" in Christ, can we lose that salvation? I'm still not really clear on your position. When we "trust in Christ" we are justified by His Blood forever. Here is what you wrote in a previous thread:

14 ...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)

When we trust in the blood of Christ for the fogiveness of sin we are forever made perfect before God by that one sacrifice. No further sacrifice for sin is necessary. One sacrifice makes us perfect forever. We don't have to be continually made righeous over and over again--that would require Jesus to be repeatedly sacrificed. Instead what we do is continue in the faith in Jesus' one sacrifice that made us righteous and perfect before God. From there what we do shows us to be continuing in the faith that made us forever perfect and righteous before God."

I don't know if I am misunderstanding your use of the word "forever" or not. It sounds to me like you are in the OSAS camp, or at least, (like you said above) leaning that way.

"...I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

Ok, you're right. This does actually say that a person's works "show" that he has faith, which was your point. What it doesn't say is that works have nothing to do with salvation, and ONLY show the kind of faith a person has. I could be wrong, but I think that is your position, and that is what Scripture DOESN'T teach.

Because faith is the sole conduit through which a person is declared righteous.

This isn't taught in Scripture either unless you stretch the word "works" to mean everything but faith.

People get confused because being declared righteous by faith in the promise that God will forgive you through Jesus Christ's blood will change a person into a new creation that behaves righteously more and more. So it is in that sense that you can save yourself by what you do.

It's the only sense, because "trusting" is a "work". It is something you HAVE to do in order to be saved, right? Certainly the "will and the work" to "trust" are gifts from God, but the same can be said for baptism, etc...

Faith that manifests itself in "love your neighbor as yourself" (the royal command of scripture) is what saves. If your faith does not change you into an evermore obedient person, you do not have the faith that justifies, the justification that is freely given to a person apart from the merit of their righteous behavior.

Yes, figuratively, when you have the faith that justifies (all by itself), and that faith finds expression in "love your neighbor as yourself" you are in effect saving yourself through that work. I don't know if 'figure of speech' is the right description of that or not, but the whole counsel of scripture shows us that thinking you literally earn a declaration of righteousness by your good behavior is not how men are saved, and is in fact quite impossible to do.

Sorry, Jethro. No matter how you slice it "having faith" or "trusting in the blood of Christ" or (especially) "CONTINUING to trust..." is a "work", something that must be done in order to be justified. Because you change the meaning of the word to "behavior" doesn't make faith any less "something that must be DONE".

This is another inconsistency. You broaden Paul's sense of the word "works" to mean EVERYTHING done, then, when it's pointed out to you that this definition includes faith, you narrow it down to "behaviors". You can't have it both ways, especially when Paul himself doesn't define the word that way.

 

[rrowell]

I think having faith in something (ergo, God) is believing without having seen. Believing is knowing.

WIP, you hit the nail on the head... and the point I tried to make...

and adding to what you said (if you don't mind, and Ill bet you agree): you can believe without faith, but you cannot have faith without belief!

 

[WIP]

Oh yes, I certainly agree because faith is not only believing but also trusting. After all, Satan believes but he has not faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He doesn't say "good behavior", he says "works", which means specifically "works of the law". He is NOT referring to charity, baptism, keeping the commandments, etc, otherwise he is contradicting other Scripture. You have to prove that when Paul uses the word "works" he means "ALL BEHAVIOR".

But the things you listed ARE works of the law:

charity: Deuteronomy 15:7-11,

water baptism (cleansing with water for the forgiveness of sin): Numbers 19

keeping the commandments: The commandments themselves, of course, being the very law of God.

NOBODY is justified by doing these things. Nobody.
It's IMPOSSIBLE to MAKE yourself righteous before God by being charitable, by being cleansed with water, or by keeping ANY command of the law. The ONLY way to be declared righteous by God is to accept his free gift of forgiveness by faith. Being forgiven of sin is the ONLY way to have unrigheousness removed. You can't work your way out of unrighteousness and into righteousness through work. That is what the gospel is ALL about.

The potential for contradiction is exactly why we have to distinguish between Paul's use of 'faith', and Paul's use of 'works' in regard to justification. But you lump them together into one thing. They surely are not. If they were, his discourse about Abraham/faith/ and works is meaningless. Utterly meaningless.

Again, I agree that nothing we can do will EARN forgiveness, or salvation or justification, or anything else. I have never claimed otherwise.

But if you make trusting in Christ a 'work' in the same sense that being charitable, baptized, and keeping commandments is a 'work' then you obviously DO believe that salvation is earned by what you do.


I'll be back later...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh yes, I certainly agree because faith is not only believing but also trusting. After all, Satan believes but he has not faith.

And this is probably the crux of the problem of why some people can't accept that justification is by faith all by itself, apart from what you do.

Having 'faith' means you have accepted Christ's blood as the atoning sacrifice that takes away your unrighteousness, making you righteous before God and qualified for salvation. Having 'faith' does not mean merely believing God exists, or even that the story of Jesus is real. Having faith means putting your trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and the removal of unrighteousness. Demons certainly have not done that, but they know better than us that God, Jesus, and the gospel are in fact very, very real. They shudder at that truth!

It's impossible to be made righteous any other way except by having trust in the blood of Christ. There is no duty, no work, no behavior that has the power to make a person righteous before God. Only having your sinful unrighteousness removed through forgiveness, by faith and trust in the power of the blood to do that, can make a person righteous. What we do after that is how we know if we are truly trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.

People who are truly believing and trusting in God's forgiveness are in the ever increasing habit of not holding other peoples sins against them. Instead they are growing up into the fruit of the Spirit, showing love, joy, peace, and kindness towards others who have the same weight of guilt against them that they themselves have been relieved of. People who don't walk in the fruit of the Spirit--angry, hateful, proud, envious, jealous people--have either forgotten the weight of sin they themselves have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9), or...never had that weight of sin removed in the first place.

 

[rrowell]

And this is probably the crux of the problem of why some people can't accept that justification is by faith all by itself, apart from what you do.

To say that, you have to call James a Liar, you cannot hold to that without total disregard for this scripture, no way around it :

James 2:17 KJV
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It does not get much clearer than that... and this:

James 2:21-22 KJV
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To say that, you have to call James a Liar, you cannot hold to that without total disregard for this scripture, no way around it :

James 2:17 KJV
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It does not get much clearer than that... and this:

James 2:21-22 KJV
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Then you believe that we are MADE righteous by what we do, right?

And you probably also think there is no possible way to misunderstand that James is saying that, right?

 

[heymikey80]

He doesn't say "good behavior", he says "works", which means specifically "works of the law". He is NOT referring to charity, baptism, keeping the commandments, etc, otherwise he is contradicting other Scripture. You have to prove that when Paul uses the word "works" he means "ALL BEHAVIOR".

Yes, Paul is referring to commandment keeping.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in working-well seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature work what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” Romans 2, ESV

Paul is explicitly saying he's talking about work, he uses the same word twice, and then proceeds to define what kinds of work are included in it: patience in working well seeking glory and honor and immortality -- and what kinds of work defy it: stealing, adultery, idolatry: commandment-breaking.

For baptism and charity, we can discuss them, but they're red herrings. Baptism is something done to you, not something you do. Nobody's commanded you to baptize someone else. That was the Apostles and John the Baptist. For charity -- the word "charity" doesn't mean alms-giving in Scripture. It means sacrificial love.

Ok, you're right. This does actually say that a person's works "show" that he has faith, which was your point. What it doesn't say is that works have nothing to do with salvation, and ONLY show the kind of faith a person has. I could be wrong, but I think that is your position, and that is what Scripture DOESN'T teach.

Eph 2:8-10 "saved ... not of works, ... but for the purpose of good works that He has appointed for you to do." That is what Scripture DOES teach.

 

[rrowell]

Yes, Paul is referring to commandment keeping.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in working-well seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature work what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.†Romans 2, ESV

Paul is explicitly saying he's talking about work, he uses the same word twice, and then proceeds to define what kinds of work are included in it: patience in working well seeking glory and honor and immortality -- and what kinds of work defy it: stealing, adultery, idolatry: commandment-breaking.

The work here Paul is speaking of is the Jewish Law... there is no salvation in the Jewish law!

For baptism and charity, we can discuss them, but they're red herrings. Baptism is something done to you, not something you do. Nobody's commanded you to baptize someone else. That was the Apostles and John the Baptist. For charity -- the word "charity" doesn't mean alms-giving in Scripture. It means sacrificial love.

Really? the command was ONLY for the Apostles???, are you actually saying only an Apostle can baptize us????

That is weak... this was the starting of the "Church", the command was to propagate Christianity... for Christians to go throughout the world baptizing....

Eph 2:8-10 "saved ... not of works, ... but for the purpose of good works that He has appointed for you to do." That is what Scripture DOES teach.

Yep, that's what it says the Jewish law "works" here, will not save you, but the "faith" in Christ, the same "faith" that James speaks of which requires "works" the "works" James speaks of justifies our "faith", it is not the Jewish Law...

 

[rrowell]

Then you believe that we are MADE righteous by what we do, right?

I did not write this I quoted it:

Romans 5:19 KJV
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And you probably also think there is no possible way to misunderstand that James is saying that, right?

Of course I do, I believe you misunderstand what he is saying, you keep mixing up the "works" that Paul and James speak of....

 

[dadof10]

But the things you listed ARE works of the law:

charity: Deuteronomy 15:7-11,

water baptism (cleansing with water for the forgiveness of sin): Numbers 19

keeping the commandments: The commandments themselves, of course, being the very law of God.

LOL...and faith isn't? So, Paul means faith does not save either? You have him contradicting James, Jesus, Peter and now himself. Belief in God is the FIRST commandment. Sorry, but this argument falls flat. No matter how hard you try you cannot logically separate faith from other things you MUST DO IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, other "works". "I AM the Lord your God, you shall not have other Gods before me" is faith. We are still in the same boat, nice try.

The first real doctrinal division within the early Church revolved around Gentile circumcision and whether the converts needed to become Jews and keep the Law. This is the context in which Paul was writing. The "Judaizers" were attempting to force the JEWISH RITUAL LAW, specifically circumcision, on the Gentile converts. When Paul uses the word "works" he is NOT talking about baptism or keeping the commandments, but the rituals the Judaizers were pushing on the converts. Ignoring this historical fact is the reason you are in error.

NOBODY is justified by doing these things. Nobody.
It's IMPOSSIBLE to MAKE yourself righteous before God by being charitable, by being cleansed with water, or by keeping ANY command of the law. The ONLY way to be declared righteous by God is to accept his free gift of forgiveness by faith. Being forgiven of sin is the ONLY way to have unrigheousness removed. You can't work your way out of unrighteousness and into righteousness through work. That is what the gospel is ALL about.

I know this is what you believe. Simply repeating it over and over does not help you make your point.

The potential for contradiction is exactly why we have to distinguish between Paul's use of 'faith', and Paul's use of 'works' in regard to justification. But you lump them together into one thing. They surely are not. If they were, his discourse about Abraham/faith/ and works is meaningless. Utterly meaningless.

After all these posts back and forth you cannot possibly be missing my point by this much. I have been saying for months that IF you believe that the word "works" means "everything done" or "all behavior" this definition MUST INCLUDE FAITH, THEREFORE PAUL MUST MEAN SOMETHING MORE SPECIFIC BY THE WORD "WORKS". I am NOT lumping them together, I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of your position.

But if you make trusting in Christ a 'work' in the same sense that being charitable, baptized, and keeping commandments is a 'work' then you obviously DO believe that salvation is earned by what you do.

I'm doing the exact opposite. I am saying Paul means ONLY WORKS OF THE LAW when he says "works". He does NOT mean, repeat, DOES NOT MEAN, baptism, keeping the commandments or FAITH. DOES NOT MEAN FAITH. I hope that's clear enough.

You are trying to stretch the word "works" to mean "all behavior". All I'm doing is pointing out the obvious FACT that "trusting Christ" or "continuing to believe..." or whatever semantics you want to use, is an ACT OF THE WILL, like NOT coveting or NOT stealing. If you want to keep insisting that Paul means ALL BEHAVIOR by the word "works", you have to explain in a logical way how "faith" is exempted, yet other BEHAVIORS listed in Scripture that save, are not. This is what you can't do and why your view is inconsistent.

 

[eddif]

John taught repentance and said believe in the one who comes after me.
(Repentance gets you on the right road)

Jesus taught repentance and said no one comes to Father, but by me, plus promised to send the Holy Spirit to be in them.
(Eternal life comes through faith in Jesus)

The Holy Spirit empowered / empowers service ability.
(Being able to go comes from the Holy Spirit)


eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

LOL...and faith isn't (a work of the law)?

"12 However, the Law is not of faith..." (Galatians 3:12 NASB)

So, Paul means faith does not save either? You have him contradicting James, Jesus, Peter and now himself. Belief in God is the FIRST commandment. Sorry, but this argument falls flat. No matter how hard you try you cannot logically separate faith from other things you MUST DO IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, other "works". "I AM the Lord your God, you shall not have other Gods before me" is faith. We are still in the same boat, nice try.

"12 However, the Law is not of faith..." (Galatians 3:12 NASB)

The first real doctrinal division within the early Church revolved around Gentile circumcision and whether the converts needed to become Jews and keep the Law. This is the context in which Paul was writing. The "Judaizers" were attempting to force the JEWISH RITUAL LAW, specifically circumcision, on the Gentile converts. When Paul uses the word "works" he is NOT talking about baptism or keeping the commandments, but the rituals the Judaizers were pushing on the converts. Ignoring this historical fact is the reason you are in error.

You are in error because you do not understand that 'law' in the context of this discussion means the attempt to have yourself declared righteous before God through your righteous behavior. This is the main reason you are not getting it.

I said:
"NOBODY is justified by doing these things. Nobody.
It's IMPOSSIBLE to MAKE yourself righteous before God by being charitable, by being cleansed with water, or by keeping ANY command of the law. The ONLY way to be declared righteous by God is to accept his free gift of forgiveness by faith. Being forgiven of sin is the ONLY way to have unrigheousness removed. You can't work your way out of unrighteousness and into righteousness through work. That is what the gospel is ALL about."

I know this is what you believe. Simply repeating it over and over does not help you make your point.

You blowing this off, again, is how I know that you do not understand that 'law' in this discussion means the attempt to be declared righteous through righteous behavior. If you could truly understand that people are saved because their sins have been forgiven, not because of their righteous behavior, then you would not skip over this repeated truth I keep setting forth here. If you can't get this truth you'll never understand the truth about faith/ works. We are saved because God forgave us, period. There is no amount of righteous behavior, or doctrine, or worship style, or anything that can lay hold of the forgiveness of God as if it was something you jumped through a hoop through to get. The way you get the forgiveness of God so you can be saved is through faith in that forgiveness, period.


15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

(Romans 9:15-16)


You receive this mercy by trusting in that mercy, not by doing righteous things to deserve it. If that were true, grace (UNMERITED favor) would no longer be grace.

 

[heymikey80]

The work here Paul is speaking of is the Jewish Law... there is no salvation in the Jewish law!

Paul's words are not limited to Jewish law. In fact Paul is not speaking to Jewish people alone, but anyone "who by patience in working-well seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life" Rom 2:7 -- that is, anyone who proposes to work for immortality!

This is no flash in the pan, either. It's central to Paul's message. He reiterates it in the case of Abraham:

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5

Just for emphasis, I'll reiterate: Abraham precedes law. So there is no contest here: Paul can't be talking about a Law that didn't even exist at the time.

Really? the command was ONLY for the Apostles???, are you actually saying only an Apostle can baptize us????

No, but -- it's a deflection, a red herring as I said before. It is not a requirement of everyone in the church to baptize someone else! So this work is nothing of the sort. The person who performs this work is not being saved thereby.

That is weak... this was the starting of the "Church", the command was to propagate Christianity... for Christians to go throughout the world baptizing....

It's not weak once you recognize the red herring of the argument. It points to the wrong person involved in baptism being saved: the one working is the one baptizing, not the one being baptized.

A "red herring" is a topic deflection. You've caused the red herring. But the truth remains.

Yep, that's what it says the Jewish law "works" here, will not save you, but the "faith" in Christ, the same "faith" that James speaks of which requires "works" the "works" James speaks of justifies our "faith", it is not the Jewish Law...

No, James doesn't say faith requires works -- James says the faith that produces works is alive, and that faith is what eternal life works through. The dead faith is not a faith which brings life, it's kinda obvious it's ... dead!

But works are an outworking. They are not a requirement, nor a cause. They're at best what shows out that someone is saved -- they make faith "evident". But they don't cause salvation.

 

[Butch5]

On another forum, I made the argument that the very idea of repentance requires restitution/reparation. So if you steal your neighbors horse and repent, then true repentance requires you to return the stolen horse else you have not truly repented/changed. If you do not have to return the horse and it is acceptable to keep the stolen horse, then what would you have to repent of?

Those on the other side, mostly of the 'faith only' persuasion argued one does not have to return the horse. They argued essentially that if repentance requires a work, then I would have a "works based salvation". And that if my salvation hinged upon the work of returning the horse, then I would be trying to earn/merit my salvation by returning the stolen horse, therefore I could keep it.



What say you :

You are correct. The works argument comes from a misunderstanding of the aposlte Paul and a misunderstanding of the nature of salvation. However, we have Jesus' words here.

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.​

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. (Luk 19:8-9 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Paul's words are not limited to Jewish law. In fact Paul is not speaking to Jewish people alone, but anyone "who by patience in working-well seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life" Rom 2:7 -- that is, anyone who proposes to work for immortality!

This is no flash in the pan, either. It's central to Paul's message. He reiterates it in the case of Abraham:

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5

Just for emphasis, I'll reiterate: Abraham precedes law. So there is no contest here: Paul can't be talking about a Law that didn't even exist at the time.

No, but -- it's a deflection, a red herring as I said before. It is not a requirement of everyone in the church to baptize someone else! So this work is nothing of the sort. The person who performs this work is not being saved thereby.

It's not weak once you recognize the red herring of the argument. It points to the wrong person involved in baptism being saved: the one working is the one baptizing, not the one being baptized.

A "red herring" is a topic deflection. You've caused the red herring. But the truth remains.

No, James doesn't say faith requires works -- James says the faith that produces works is alive, and that faith is what eternal life works through. The dead faith is not a faith which brings life, it's kinda obvious it's ... dead!

But works are an outworking. They are not a requirement, nor a cause. They're at best what shows out that someone is saved -- they make faith "evident". But they don't cause salvation.

Actually, Paul is talking about the Law. He has just made the case in Romans 3 that no flesh shall be justified by the Law. In chapter 4 he turns to Abraham to prove his point. Abraham lived long before the Law and the Scriptures say that he was justified. If Abraham was justified long before the Law came into being then Paul's argument is proven correct that the Law is not a means of justification before God.

 

[dadof10]

Yes, Paul is referring to commandment keeping.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in working-well seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature work what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.†Romans 2, ESV

Paul is explicitly saying he's talking about work, he uses the same word twice, and then proceeds to define what kinds of work are included in it: patience in working well seeking glory and honor and immortality -- and what kinds of work defy it: stealing, adultery, idolatry: commandment-breaking.

He defines what he means by "work" when he says "work what the law requires" and "work of the law". He is preaching AGAINST works of the law. He then turns around and says keeping these commandments is GOOD. He is not drawing a parallel between "works of the law" and keeping the commandments, but between "works of the law" and circumcision because he immediately goes on the say: "Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28 For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. 29 He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God."

I think to say that when Paul uses the word "works" he means "keeping the commandments" misses the point of Romans 2, in fact, all of Romans. He is obviously addressing the "Judiaizers" who were trying to teach circumcision was necessary for salvation. This is the context and it can't logically be stretched to mean keeping the commandments, let alone ALL BEHAVIOR.

For baptism and charity, we can discuss them, but they're red herrings. Baptism is something done to you, not something you do.

OK, then it is NOT a behavior so does not fall under Paul's condemnation of "works"? If my contention is that the word "works" only includes "works of the law", specifically circumcision and NOT baptism, how is that a Red Herring?

Nobody's commanded you to baptize someone else. That was the Apostles and John the Baptist.

So commands given to the Apostles are not for anyone but them? You may want to rethink this.

For charity -- the word "charity" doesn't mean alms-giving in Scripture. It means sacrificial love.

Agree, although alms giving is a form of sacrificial love. It is still something that takes an act of the will and is salvific, like faith.

Eph 2:8-10 "saved ... not of works, ... but for the purpose of good works that He has appointed for you to do." That is what Scripture DOES teach.

And what does Scripture teach "works" means? "Everything done" Nope, keep reading.

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.

 

[dadof10]

"12 However, the Law is not of faith..." (Galatians 3:12 NASB)




"12 However, the Law is not of faith..." (Galatians 3:12 NASB)

The law is not OF faith does not translate into faith has no place in the law. No matter ho hard you try, you cannot logically separate "trusting" from all other "works". Faith takes an act of the will, as does all other acts that SAVE.

You are in error because you do not understand that 'law' in the context of this discussion means the attempt to have yourself declared righteous before God through your righteous behavior. This is the main reason you are not getting it.

You blowing this off, again, is how I know that you do not understand that 'law' in this discussion means the attempt to be declared righteous through righteous behavior. If you could truly understand that people are saved because their sins have been forgiven, not because of their righteous behavior, then you would not skip over this repeated truth I keep setting forth here.

I don't accept this premise. You can attempt to define "the context of this discussion" as ANYTHING that has "yourself declared righteous before God through your righteous behavior", but this is not the working hypothesis, merely your contention. What Paul means by the phrase "works of the law" is what we're discussing here.

If you can't get this truth you'll never understand the truth about faith/ works. We are saved because God forgave us, period. There is no amount of righteous behavior, or doctrine, or worship style, or anything that can lay hold of the forgiveness of God as if it was something you jumped through a hoop through to get. The way you get the forgiveness of God so you can be saved is through faith in that forgiveness, period.

You can keep repeating it all you want, but you can't PROVE it. Your contention is that the word "works" includes EVERY BEHAVIOR OR ACTION. That when Paul says "works of the law" or "works" he has in mind keeping the commandments, baptism, charitable works, etc. My contention is that he means something specific (works of the Jewish law or circumcision), and that Scripture and historical fact (Acts 15) backs me up. To make my point, I brought up the FACT that Paul couldn't possibly mean ALL BEHAVIOR because "trusting in Christ" or FAITH IS A BEHAVIOR. Therefore, he must mean something more specific than ALL ACTIONS that attempt to "have yourself declared righteous before God through your righteous behavior".

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.â€

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

(Romans 9:15-16)


You receive this mercy by trusting in that mercy, not by doing righteous things to deserve it. If that were true, grace (UNMERITED favor) would no longer be grace.

Is "trusting in that mercy" a "work", then? Again, I agree that the ATTITUDE of OBLIGATION is implicit in Paul's use of the word "works". ANYTHING DONE with that attitude (including having faith) does not justify. However Paul does NOT mean that baptism, keeping the commandments, charity, sacrifice, etc. DONE WITH THE PROPER ATTITUDE AND IN FAITH DOES NOT JUSTIFY. This is what you have to prove and can't.