The Wrath of God

[Deborah13]

Now Deborah what I`m going to say I`m not wanting to say in any why to insult you. I have heard what you have said in very similar ways by other people and I carefully considered it but found it was not complete it was not just as you have said. There is a way for everything to be perfectly just and equal for every person.

First let`s talk about this vs you just mentioned.

Jesus is totally the KEY, how did Abraham see his day, Abraham believed in Jesus before he was born, he believed in the promise of God of the resurrection and thus was also believing in Christ.

I agree that God can redeem all these ones that is what the purpose of the whole resurrection is about, because to simply be brought back to life doesn`t mean you receive immortality. I believe everyone that was resurrected in the past still died again because it wasn`t a resurrection to everlasting life. However the gift of immortality ONLY is given through faith in Christ, to say or imply there is a different way that some other people can still be `saved`or `redeemed` is to then open Pandora`s box because then why was Christ`s sacrifice needed at all, if untold millions can be saved by some other means why not the whole of humanity. What is the judgement then based on.

Digging

I must not have been clear.
"God can redeem them who do not have the ability to choose for themselves. God can make Himself known without the help of man. I trust that my God is a just God. What we see as difficulties, He worked out before the foundations of the world."

Those two lines go together. God does not need the help of men in order to redeem someone.
Clarifying....God does not need man/men to carry the message or witness to someone in order for them to come to know God/Jesus our Lord.
Adam knew God without the help of any other man. Abraham knew God without the help of any other man.
Here's another example,
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

God gave the Apostles to Jesus and He kept them and none were lost, while He was with them.
God can choose those who He will give to the Lord Jesus and He can keep them. Did the Apostles have a choice? Nope. They were predestined to be the Apostles by God's choice. Were they regenerated by the Holy Spirit then? No, not until Jesus gave it to them. Did He ask them if they wanted it? No. He just breathed on them and told them to receive it.

I like neat little boxes of files that make sense all arranged in alphabetical order. Just like I can see in your photo that you like neatly kept raised bed boxes for your plants.
But the truth is we can't put God into our neat boxes.
Some things we just have to trust that He has a way to work things out and we are not privy to all of them.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes feast of weeks is also called Pentecost which we can see was very important for the early Church since the blessing of the spirit was poured out on them.
But the righteous are referred to as the firstfruits of spring not as the fall harvest, this is why I feel it`s pointing to a greater work yet to come.

Digging

Yep, I asked this in another thread.
I believe that maybe those who came out of their tombs after Jesus was resurrected may have ascended sometime then.

 

[digging]

I very much agree that he doesn`t need a man, but he did choose to use Jesus Christ, there is no other name under heaven by which anyone is to be saved. The only thing I`m trying to point out is that every single person who is saved is saved through faith in him but also this is the ONLY way any one is saved. The promise of the Christ was given right away when they sinned, I believe Abel was showing faith in that promise when he offered his lamb, because he is classed as a righteous one.

Romans 10:17 NAS
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Romans 3:22 NAS
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe

Romans 5:17 NAS
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:21 NAS
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why does it seem difficult to consider that there is a provision being made so that untold millions will yet get to hear the invitation and follow the great shepherd.

What is the purpose of resurrecting people to just throw them right back into death.

By far there are way way more people who have never even hear the call of God that the whole total of all the righteous.

We have been taught to focus on condemnation to much I feel.

There is a purpose for the 1000`s years. I`m not wanting to be confrontational so please know I enjoy talking with you.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

I very much agree that he doesn`t need a man, but he did choose to use Jesus Christ, there is no other name under heaven by which anyone is to be saved. The only thing I`m trying to point out is that every single person who is saved is saved through faith in him but also this is the ONLY way any one is saved. The promise of the Christ was given right away when they sinned, I believe Abel was showing faith in that promise when he offered his lamb, because he is classed as a righteous one.

Romans 10:17 NAS
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Romans 3:22 NAS
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe

Romans 5:17 NAS
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:21 NAS
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why does it seem difficult to consider that there is a provision being made so that untold millions will yet get to hear the invitation and follow the great shepherd.

What is the purpose of resurrecting people to just throw them right back into death.

By far there are way way more people who have never even hear the call of God that the whole total of all the righteous.

We have been taught to focus on condemnation to much I feel.

There is a purpose for the 1000`s years. I`m not wanting to be confrontational so please know I enjoy talking with you.

Digging

I don't feel you are being confrontational at all and I hope you don't think I am either. I am enjoying our talk.
I do understand your concerns, they are not things that many of us don't think about as well. My oldest daughter has an especially hard time with this issue.

 

[agua.]

I very much agree that he doesn`t need a man, but he did choose to use Jesus Christ, there is no other name under heaven by which anyone is to be saved. The only thing I`m trying to point out is that every single person who is saved is saved through faith in him but also this is the ONLY way any one is saved. The promise of the Christ was given right away when they sinned, I believe Abel was showing faith in that promise when he offered his lamb, because he is classed as a righteous one.

Romans 10:17 NAS
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Romans 3:22 NAS
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe

Romans 5:17 NAS
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:21 NAS
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why does it seem difficult to consider that there is a provision being made so that untold millions will yet get to hear the invitation and follow the great shepherd.

What is the purpose of resurrecting people to just throw them right back into death.

By far there are way way more people who have never even hear the call of God that the whole total of all the righteous.

We have been taught to focus on condemnation to much I feel.

There is a purpose for the 1000`s years. I`m not wanting to be confrontational so please know I enjoy talking with you.

Digging

Gday Digging have you noticed when the unsaved will be resurrected ? Rev 20 suggests it will be after the 1000 years.


Rev 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Also notice that even with Jesus present a number " as the sand of the sea " will rebel against Him and follow satan. Many people simply don't want to know about God sadly.

Maybe we can be comforted that Jesus will judge righteously and there's a hint in Romans 2:14-16 that all people will have opportunity to present their righteousness to God but I doubt anyone can qualify through the absence of sin and so there must still be faith involved. Also God has revealed Himself clearly in creation do you think ?

 

[digging]

Oh yes I agree there will be many as the scriptures say that will still choose to turn away, but I still firmly believe that everyone who has not heard the true call from God in this age will be given the opportunity to hear it in the age to come. As for that one vs in Rev, remember it is Revelation, and recall also how Jesus said 'let the dead bury their dead.' Thus this vs could also be saying that only the righteous receive a resurrection to immortal life, and the work of the 1000's years is to bring the remainder of humanity to 'life'.

Digging

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I hear you Deb and I would ask you to consider what I`m going to say. Notice again how the City is described as being made of stones and pearls with the names of the 12 sons of Israel and the 12 apostles and that the whole city it`s self is also described as the bride. Then

Rev 21:26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

Rev 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and oft he Lamb,

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

It seems to me the City is made of all the righteous who were believers in the previous age during the curse, to enter the City is to join and become part of the city part of the blessed family of God.

When I read Rev 22:14 I see this as the very action of the judgement. Everyone resurrected will have the choice to Come`drink life`s water free`or to stay outside with the dogs. If they stay outside they will perish in the lake of fire.

I just really, really don`t believe this age is about judgement. What has been given is the invitation to be part of the first fruits or the Bride of Christ for the purpose of this great in gathering which is to happen during the millennium. Just think for a few moments and try to imagine how many uncountable millions of people have died with never hearing one peep of the message. How many died as 1 day old babies, 2 days, 3 days, 1 year, 5 years.....none of these people even had their chance to hear the call. The bible is very very clear we are only saved through faith in Christ and how can anyone be saved if they have not heard. Every single soul that`s ever lived will be given the chance to hear the sprite and the bride say come.

Digging

This is basically what Universalists teach, that in the age to come people get additional chances to enter into the gates.

 

[WIP]

It doesn't appear that a second chance was offered here.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It doesn't appear that a second chance was offered here.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Hi WIP,

If this is the final judgment then why does this Rich Man ask Lazarus to go back and warn his brothers who are still alive? The final judgment occurs after the resurrection, where the wicked will be sent to hell... this passage says that he was in Hades.

How is therefore relevant to the topic?

 

[digging]

Please everyone I am not talking about any 2nd chances! I'm talking about everyone being given a FIRST chance! A first chance how can it be conjured that the unknown millions of young lost lives were given the mature opportunity to find their faith? Or how about all the billions whom have lived and died over the last 1000's of years who never ever seen or hear the message of the scriptures?

What is the purpose of the Bride, why are they described as Kings, Priests and Judges???

A righteous nation born in one day through the resurrection of the righteous for the purpose of what??

To bring LIGHT to the world.

14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden ; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lamp stand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Revelation 21:24 NAS
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Revelation 22:5 NAS
And there will no longer be any night ; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Isaiah 2:2 NAS
Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills ; And all the nations will stream to it.

I say these 'last days' include the 1000's years because the real end is after the devil is released. What we are waiting for is the beginning, the return of Jesus.

Digging

 

[WIP]

Hi WIP,

If this is the final judgment then why does this Rich Man ask Lazarus to go back and warn his brothers who are still alive? The final judgment occurs after the resurrection, where the wicked will be sent to hell... this passage says that he was in Hades.

How is therefore relevant to the topic?

I was responding to the previous two posts pointing out that once we leave this life on earth there are no second chances. By the way, the rich man doesn't ask Lazarus to go back but asked of Abraham that Lazarus be sent back but the response is that it can't be done. The topic is God's wrath and I think it is clear that God's wrath is final. Is there any place in scripture where one is offered a second chance after leaving this earthly life?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I was responding to the previous two posts pointing out that once we leave this life on earth there are no second chances. By the way, the rich man doesn't ask Lazarus to go back but asked of Abraham that Lazarus be sent back but the response is that it can't be done. The topic is God's wrath and I think it is clear that God's wrath is final. Is there any place in scripture where one is offered a second chance after leaving this earthly life?

And I was responding to the fact that this parable is completely useless for the purposes of determining what happens after this life as it was not used by Jesus to teach truths about the afterlife.

Let's ask some questions that I think are important to take into account.

1) In Biblical theology, when are people judged for their sins? After the resurrection.
2) When does this story of the Rich Man and Lazarus supposedly take place? Prior to the resurrection, he still has brothers living out their lives under the teachings of the Prophets.
3) Since this was prior to the resurrection, why does the Rich Man have a tongue and experience physical pain? Because this is a parable and should not be interpreted literally to denote the punishment of the wicked.

Again, to reference the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus as a description of the actual punishment to had does not work.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Please everyone I am not talking about any 2nd chances! I'm talking about everyone being given a FIRST chance! A first chance how can it be conjured that the unknown millions of young lost lives were given the mature opportunity to find their faith? Or how about all the billions whom have lived and died over the last 1000's of years who never ever seen or hear the message of the scriptures?

What is the purpose of the Bride, why are they described as Kings, Priests and Judges???

A righteous nation born in one day through the resurrection of the righteous for the purpose of what??

To bring LIGHT to the world.

14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden ; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lamp stand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Revelation 21:24 NAS
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Revelation 22:5 NAS
And there will no longer be any night ; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Isaiah 2:2 NAS
Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills ; And all the nations will stream to it.

I say these 'last days' include the 1000's years because the real end is after the devil is released. What we are waiting for is the beginning, the return of Jesus.

Digging

Reading through some of your older posts, I can see this nuance, with a particular emphasis on children who died at a young age 0-5 years old for example.

I find this an odd doctrine because you suppose a Loving and Just God would condemn eternally children who did not know right from wrong yet.

And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. Deuteronomy 1:39 (ESV)

For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted. Isaiah 7:16 (ESV)

How would God be Just if he condemned a child who did not know how to refuse evil and choose the good?

 

[agua.]

Why does it seem difficult to consider that there is a provision being made so that untold millions will yet get to hear the invitation and follow the great shepherd.

What is the purpose of resurrecting people to just throw them right back into death.

By far there are way way more people who have never even hear the call of God that the whole total of all the righteous.

Digging

It's not difficult to consider Digging but the scriptures don't indicate it. The resurrection of people who will be thrown into the LOF is so that the justice of judgement can be met and everyone will be given a hearing , sentence, and execution of the sentence. Everyone will be given the evidence which omits them from the New World.

What do you consider the "call of God is" ? Remember Jesus said few will find the path that leads to eternal life and this is because most people reject Yahweh. .

 

[Deborah13]

It's not difficult to consider Digging but the scriptures don't indicate it. The resurrection of people who will be thrown into the LOF is so that the justice of judgement can be met and everyone will be given a hearing , sentence, and execution of the sentence. Everyone will be given the evidence which omits them from the New World.

What do you consider the "call of God is" ? Remember Jesus said few will find the path that leads to eternal life and this is because most people reject Yahweh. .

I think she is concerned about people who have never heard the Gospel message so they haven't been given the chance to receive Jesus as their Savior.

 

[Deborah13]

Reading through some of your older posts, I can see this nuance, with a particular emphasis on children who died at a young age 0-5 years old for example.

I find this an odd doctrine because you suppose a Loving and Just God would condemn eternally children who did not know right from wrong yet.

And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. Deuteronomy 1:39 (ESV)

For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted. Isaiah 7:16 (ESV)

How would God be Just if he condemned a child who did not know how to refuse evil and choose the good?

Those are the scriptures that say so much!

 

[WIP]

And I was responding to the fact that this parable is completely useless for the purposes of determining what happens after this life as it was not used by Jesus to teach truths about the afterlife.

Let's ask some questions that I think are important to take into account.

1) In Biblical theology, when are people judged for their sins? After the resurrection.
2) When does this story of the Rich Man and Lazarus supposedly take place? Prior to the resurrection, he still has brothers living out their lives under the teachings of the Prophets.
3) Since this was prior to the resurrection, why does the Rich Man have a tongue and experience physical pain? Because this is a parable and should not be interpreted literally to denote the punishment of the wicked.

Again, to reference the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus as a description of the actual punishment to had does not work.

I beg to differ.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I beg to differ.

Since you differ, are you able to address the points that I made?

1) Why does the Rich Man have a physical body prior to the resurrection if this is actually useful for doctrine?
2) If this is about a permanent punishment, why is it about Hades and not Hell?
3) Why is this person experiencing the final punishment if it is prior to the final judgment?

Do you simply differ because your doctrine depends on you rejecting my claims, or do you actually have a valid reason for rejecting my points?

As this is a thread to discuss these, and you raised the point and I questioned it's viability, is this not relevant and useful to discuss?

 

[digging]

Reading through some of your older posts, I can see this nuance, with a particular emphasis on children who died at a young age 0-5 years old for example.

I find this an odd doctrine because you suppose a Loving and Just God would condemn eternally children who did not know right from wrong yet.

And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. Deuteronomy 1:39 (ESV)

For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted. Isaiah 7:16 (ESV)

How would God be Just if he condemned a child who did not know how to refuse evil and choose the good?

Thank-you everyone so far for your replies. I'm not the one implying God lacks mercy I believe he is very merciful. I was just using the example of the children as a way to look at this topic from a fresh view. Children are not the only ones that are part of the question, as I also said what about all the other MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people who have lived and died during the ages past far far away from anywhere where the gospel was known? The whole of Asia, Australia, north and south America, the islands of the sea????

Acts 4:12 NIV
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Yes let's look at the vs you have used from Deuteronomy, I see this as totally supporting my point. They will be resurrected and given the opportunity to have faith in the name of Jesus. There is no 'free pass' the only way to enter the city by the gates is through faith. It seems clear to me that during the 1000's years there will be blessed people within the city and others outside the blessing and in order to enter the city they will need to wash their robes in the blood of the lamb.

Digging

 

[digging]

Here let's think about this beautiful scripture as well.

4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe ; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," 8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE "; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light

When does this really happen?

Why make the righteous a nation of Priests??? Who are they priests for?????

Why make them kings, who are they kings for???

Why make them Judges who are they judges for???

I believe this is the spiritual work that will happen after the resurrection. We have been taught to think just about our personal salvation and that after the resurrection it's all over. I don't agree at all with that!


Revelation 20:6 NAS
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection ; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Revelation 5:10 NAS
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

Ezekiel 44:23 "Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. 24 "In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge ; they shall judge it according to My ordinances.

Digging