The Wrath of God

[Doulos Iesou]

Thank-you everyone so far for your replies. I'm not the one implying God lacks mercy I believe he is very merciful. I was just using the example of the children as a way to look at this topic from a fresh view. Children are not the only ones that are part of the question, as I also said what about all the other MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people who have lived and died during the ages past far far away from anywhere where the gospel was known? The whole of Asia, Australia, north and south America, the islands of the sea????

Does God have the responsibility to try and save everyone?

Though it does say in Acts that God overlooked a period of ignorance, which seems to denote he has mercy on ignorance.

Yes let's look at the vs you have used from Deuteronomy, I see this as totally supporting my point. They will be resurrected and given the opportunity to have faith in the name of Jesus.

How does this support your view at all? This passage demonstrates that these children had no ability to do good instead of evil, in fact had no way to distinguish the two which makes any grounds for condemnation null.

Where does the Bible say infants will have a second chance?

There is no 'free pass' the only way to enter the city by the gates is through faith.

Otherwise God would be Just in condemning an infant for eternity?

It seems clear to me that during the 1000's years there will be blessed people within the city and others outside the blessing and in order to enter the city they will need to wash their robes in the blood of the lamb.

Except that the Heavenly Jerusalem descends AFTER that 1000 years.

 

[digging]

11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek ; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed ? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard ? And how will they hear without a preacher ? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent ?

There is a grand work YET to be done!

Digging

 

[digging]

Does God have the responsibility to try and save everyone?



Though it does say in Acts that God overlooked a period of ignorance, which seems to denote he has mercy on ignorance.


How does this support your view at all? This passage demonstrates that these children had no ability to do good instead of evil, in fact had no way to distinguish the two which makes any grounds for condemnation null.

Where does the Bible say infants will have a second chance?


Otherwise God would be Just in condemning an infant for eternity?

Except that the Heavenly Jerusalem descends AFTER that 1000 years.

Are you saying they will stay infants forever??? Or are you saying that as adults they will some how be saved without personal expression of faith in Christ?

I am saying in a very real way all these children will be given the opportunity to grow up and hear the message of the gospel preached to them during the 1000's years through the provision of the resurrection.

Also please how can hearing the gospel for the FIRST TIME be called a 2nd chance???????????

I Tim 2:3 .... in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all

If there is a way to save as many as possible I'm certain he will!

It doesn't exactly say WHEN it descends you are just assuming that. It could also be at the moment of the resurrection of the righteous who's names have all been written in heaven, when Jesus comes for his Bride which is at the beginning of his return.

Why is everyone in such a hurry to have so many condemned????

Digging

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Are you saying they will stay infants forever??? Or are you saying that as adults they will some how be saved without personal expression of faith in Christ?

I am saying the relevant condition to their judgment was their life, wherein they were only an infant.

I am saying in a very real way all these children will be given the opportunity to grow up and hear the message of the gospel preached to them during the 1000's years through the provision of the resurrection.

Which would infer that they would be resurrected among the righteous does it not?

Also please how can hearing the gospel for the FIRST TIME be called a 2nd chance???????????

No infant or child has ever heard the gospel? They may be young, but they're not deaf.

I Tim 2:3 .... in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all

If there is a way to save as many as possible I'm certain he will!

So an infant is in need of salvation?

It doesn't exactly say WHEN it descends you are just assuming that. It could also be at the moment of the resurrection of the righteous who's names have all been written in heaven, when Jesus comes for his Bride which is at the beginning of his return.

Are you saying that Revelation 21 comes before Revelation 20? I assume that there is some kind of chronology to the order of the chapters. That's like saying "You assume chapter 21 comes after 20, but that is just an assumption." Kind of a ridiculous position don't you see?

Why is everyone in such a hurry to have so many condemned????

Who is in a hurry to see this? I'm trying to draw out the logical conclusions from your position, which is that you believe infants deserve the lake of fire, despite the fact that God will give than an opportunity to repent.

 

[digging]

There is no real way to know the chronology order of Revelation..... take care what you call ridiculous.

How can any person hear something that might never have been spoken around them in their life time?

Please allow yourself to consider what I'm trying to explain, it might simply be that you've never seen this before.
All people need to be saved, and Jesus death clears the curse of Adam off everyone, but that does not give them righteousness, only faith in Christ can do that.

So children that have died are not guilty, but nor have they been declared righteous, because they have not had the opportunity to respond to either building on the chief corner stone or reject the chief corner stone.

This is how ALL are condemned or saved.

We have assumed the judgement day is one single human day, but I believe the whole 1000's year is the judgement day.

All who have found their faith in this age have been judged as righteous through faith, this is why they alone are resurrected to immortality and are called the first fruits. The other people resurrected no double will be resurrected back to a mortal state as we are now. They still can die the second death because they are not yet righteousness since only faith in Christ can give everlasting life.

I believe this group is the group being called to by the spirit and the bride, being called to join them in washing their robes white in the blood of the lamb and enter the city by the gates. All the ones who never heard the call of the gospel in this age.


Christ is the KEY in so many ways.

Our old doctrines of condemnation and hell fire have over shadowed our ability to discern the beauty of God's merciful plan and all that he will accomplish through the resurrection based on Christs loving sacrifice.

To stand before a Judge does not only mean condemnation it can also mean deliverance.

Likewise being resurrected to judgement can mean they have the chief corner stone before them for the first time and now they must decide to build on him or stubble over him.

Digging

 

[agua.]

Digging do you believe anyone will be destroyed/condemned or that everyone will be eventually saved ?

 

[agua.]

I think she is concerned about people who have never heard the Gospel message so they haven't been given the chance to receive Jesus as their Savior.

Everyone of the age of accountability ( whatever age that is ) has had revelation of Yahweh in one form or another and will be judged according to this. OT Saints never heard the Gospel message but found Yahweh through seeking the Creator.

 

[turnorburn]

What your suggesting here is not the gospel of Jesus Christ digging who taught you this doctrine.. by chance was it Arnold Murray?

tob

 

[WIP]

Since you differ, are you able to address the points that I made?

1) Why does the Rich Man have a physical body prior to the resurrection if this is actually useful for doctrine?
2) If this is about a permanent punishment, why is it about Hades and not Hell?
3) Why is this person experiencing the final punishment if it is prior to the final judgment?

Do you simply differ because your doctrine depends on you rejecting my claims, or do you actually have a valid reason for rejecting my points?

As this is a thread to discuss these, and you raised the point and I questioned it's viability, is this not relevant and useful to discuss?

I disagree that we have second chances after we leave this earth and I asked if there was scripture that says otherwise. That is all.

 

[digging]

Digging do you believe anyone will be destroyed/condemned or that everyone will be eventually saved ?

I've tried to be clear? I agree that an unknown amount of people like the sands of the sea rebel and are destroyed by fire. Or as the other account reads go into the second death/lake of fire.

The main thing I am saying is that total and complete judgement doesn't happen for all people in this age, there is a way for people to be saved during the 1000's years through Christ. This seems very obvious to me.

Digging

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I disagree that we have second chances after we leave this earth and I asked if there was scripture that says otherwise. That is all.

Yet I have just demonstrated that this Scripture is invalid for that usage.

Say we were in a court of law and you presented evidence for the prosecution, and then I demonstrated that the evidence has been misrepresented and doesn't actually apply to the case. How then would your evidence be of any use?

You presented Scripture which was improperly used, and when I called you out on it you simply ignore it.

Do you love the truth, or just your own opinion?

 

[turnorburn]

Let me take a wild guess digging.. are there 3 earth ages?

tob

 

[WIP]

Yet I have just demonstrated that this Scripture is invalid for that usage.

Say we were in a court of law and you presented evidence for the prosecution, and then I demonstrated that the evidence has been misrepresented and doesn't actually apply to the case. How then would your evidence be of any use?

You presented Scripture which was improperly used, and when I called you out on it you simply ignore it.

Do you love the truth, or just your own opinion?

By your opinion you have demonstrated this to be so. I am trying to understand how you have done this so I went back to refresh my memory and I don't see your claim to have proven your point beyond any doubt.

First, your claiming the parable can't be taken literally. If you'd like I can post a link to a recent thread containing pages of discussion about this particular parable and whether or not is meant to be literal.

I would like to ask, are you saying that the rich man in this parable could still repent, accept Jesus, and be saved?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

By your opinion you have demonstrated this to be so.

When did facts become opinion?

I presented these FACTS.

"1) In Biblical theology, when are people judged for their sins? After the resurrection.
2) When does this story of the Rich Man and Lazarus supposedly take place? Prior to the resurrection, he still has brothers living out their lives under the teachings of the Prophets.
3) Since this was prior to the resurrection, why does the Rich Man have a tongue and experience physical pain? Because this is a parable and should not be interpreted literally to denote the punishment of the wicked."

Digging's argument says that at the second resurrection and final judgment, everyone will get a second chance, so even granting the possibility that this is useful for theology it still does not refute her point.

I went even further to demonstrate that if taken literally this story is absurd for doctrine as the man has a body despite not being resurrected.

None of these facts have been addressed by you.

I am trying to understand how you have done this so I went back to refresh my memory and I don't see your claim to have proven your point beyond any doubt.

I can't help you if you deny the facts.

Perhaps it would help if you demonstrated that I haven't proven my point by providing a rebuttal to my points?

First, your claiming the parable can't be taken literally.

Yes, as it devolves into contradictory doctrine. Do the wicked have resurrected bodies in the intermediate state in your theology? Why does the Rich Man have a tongue and experiences physical pain?

If you'd like I can post a link to a recent thread containing pages of discussion about this particular parable and whether or not is meant to be literal.

Are you unable to speak for yourself on the matter?

Why present an argument if you do not defend it?

I would like to ask, are you saying that the rich man in this parable could still repent, accept Jesus, and be saved?

You completely misunderstand my position. The Parable is not teaching any thing accurate about theology, and that isn't it's purpose.

Hades is Sheol from the OT and is never represented as a fiery place where someone descends bodily to receive torment. This parable has nothing to do with NT theology but was communicating a message to the Pharisees who were listening. He used their own imagery, which was the doctrine of the Pharisees concerning Abraham's Bosom and a Hades that more resembles that of the Greek pagans, than the ancient Jews. Notice that the Rich Man in the parable is a Jew, as he called Abraham "father" and Abraham told him that he had Moses and the prophets. Judah also had 5 full brothers just as the Rich man.

It was a judgment against the Pharisees, for them not having compassion on the needy, remember these were the "Pharisees who loved money." (Luke 16:14) Now God was going to take the blessings once promised to Israel and give them to others, namely the Gentiles. Because they rejected the testimony of Moses and the Prophets, they would not believe even when Christ was to rise from the dead.

Your question supposes that Jesus actually believes this Pagan theology. He does not.

 

[digging]

Let me take a wild guess digging.. are there 3 earth ages?

tob

Don't know about that one, 3 earth ages, is that a teaching by a certain denomination?

I believe that all is not make completely right until the end of the 1000's years. I see the 1000's year as a transitional period like when Israel entered the promise land under Joshua there was the period of claiming each city and place which I think was 10 years? I'm not 100% sure maybe someone else know about that.

Digging

 

[agua.]

I've tried to be clear? I agree that an unknown amount of people like the sands of the sea rebel and are destroyed by fire. Or as the other account reads go into the second death/lake of fire.

The main thing I am saying is that total and complete judgement doesn't happen for all people in this age, there is a way for people to be saved during the 1000's years through Christ. This seems very obvious to me.

Digging

Oky doky Digging yes that's clear thanks I went back and reread some of your earlier posts and you did explain this my bad. I'd like to ask a couple more questions if that's ok and if you've already answered these my bad again :D.

1. What criteria do you use to determine who will be resurrected into the Millennial period ?
2. What is a "just" amount of revelation of God ?

 

[Clover me]

Don't know about that one, 3 earth ages, is that a teaching by a certain denomination?

I believe that all is not make completely right until the end of the 1000's years. I see the 1000's year as a transitional period like when Israel entered the promise land under Joshua there was the period of claiming each city and place which I think was 10 years? I'm not 100% sure maybe someone else know about that.

Digging

There is no real way to know the chronology order of Revelation..... take care what you call ridiculous.

How can any person hear something that might never have been spoken around them in their life time?

Please allow yourself to consider what I'm trying to explain, it might simply be that you've never seen this before.
All people need to be saved, and Jesus death clears the curse of Adam off everyone, but that does not give them righteousness, only faith in Christ can do that.

So children that have died are not guilty, but nor have they been declared righteous, because they have not had the opportunity to respond to either building on the chief corner stone or reject the chief corner stone.

This is how ALL are condemned or saved.

We have assumed the judgement day is one single human day, but I believe the whole 1000's year is the judgement day.

All who have found their faith in this age have been judged as righteous through faith, this is why they alone are resurrected to immortality and are called the first fruits. The other people resurrected no double will be resurrected back to a mortal state as we are now. They still can die the second death because they are not yet righteousness since only faith in Christ can give everlasting life.

I believe this group is the group being called to by the spirit and the bride, being called to join them in washing their robes white in the blood of the lamb and enter the city by the gates. All the ones who never heard the call of the gospel in this age.


Christ is the KEY in so many ways.

Our old doctrines of condemnation and hell fire have over shadowed our ability to discern the beauty of God's merciful plan and all that he will accomplish through the resurrection based on Christs loving sacrifice.

To stand before a Judge does not only mean condemnation it can also mean deliverance.

Likewise being resurrected to judgement can mean they have the chief corner stone before them for the first time and now they must decide to build on him or stubble over him.

Digging

 

[Clover me]

sorry I am new at this forum site. I am sure I will get the hang of it here and be able to join in on the conversations. I enjoyed reading Diggings post and view points. I always wondered about how Jesus came after so many lived and they would still have the chance to accept our Lord and be saved.

 

[Clover me]

Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” God’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature are clearly seen and understood by what has been made so that men are without excuse for their sin and rebellion against God. A companion verse is Psalm 19:1 “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.” Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”

We are made in his image, we have all of God's attributes. What make us angry? When do we experience wrath?

 

[digging]

Oky doky Digging yes that's clear thanks I went back and reread some of your earlier posts and you did explain this my bad. I'd like to ask a couple more questions if that's ok and if you've already answered these my bad again :biggrin.

1. What criteria do you use to determine who will be resurrected into the Millennial period ?
2. What is a "just" amount of revelation of God ?

Thank-you for the questions and thank-you for taking the time to go back and read some of what I had posted, I appreciate that.

Now for question 1 I've tried my best to get a clear understanding of the way the resurrection will work based on various scriptures like these ones.

Paul clearly believed there would be a resurrection of BOTH the righteous and unrighteous.

However I feel it is very important for us to remember we all are born unrighteous, so within the group of 'unrighteous' there could be a huge range of different natures of people who might be very 'sheep like' and quickly respond to the invitation to follow the great shepherd if they had been given the opportunity but never had before they died.

Acts 24:15 CEB
The hope I have in God I also share with my accusers, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

John 5:29 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practiced the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

As I've said before we forget and think judgment only turns out bad, but that is not always so people can also be 'judged' good .

Hebrews 11:35 NAS
Women received back their dead by resurrection ; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection ;

Notice in the above vs it's showing two different kinds of resurrection but both for righteous people? Why is that? I believe this vs is showing that the resurrections that happen during the time of Christ were not to immortality but just back to a healthy state which one could die from again, but the time was coming of a better resurrection to immortality. Thus if this kind of resurrection happened back then why couldn't it also happen for 'unrighteous' resurrected ones during the 1000's years?

Revelation 20:6 NAS
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection ; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Who are they to be Priests for????? Reign over who and why?

I'm not sure about your last question? Are you asking about' just' in our day or in the future after the resurrections?

Here is one of my present views

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats ; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

I believe this account is speaking of the work during the 1000's years of the large group of resurrected 'unrighteous'. because of this other vs

40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Who are these 'brothers'? I believe this is a parable about the 1000's years and this group is also the "bride' or the righteous priests.

17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life

Again I believe this is what will happen during the 1000's years.

The special gift we are getting now is the opportunity to become part of the family of Christ and be part of the resurrection of the righteous and perhaps help as the apostles did, but this time during the 1000's over the whole world with all the generations that every lived.


Digging