The Year of Creation

[Lance_Iguana]

Oh lord. I don't understand this thread. The first posts states that we can't argue about evolution in a creation thread. Well, duh, Evolution has nothing to do with the creation of Earth or the Universe.

The big bang theory talks about the beginning of time and Gravity along side geology explains how the Earth was created.

Nothing to do with evolution since evolution dosen't deal with the creation of life, but the mechanics on development and genetic inheritance/mutation. Don't tell me they are similar, because that's a load of nonsense only those who know nothing about biology or cosmology say because of their lack of understanding.

To some it up, anyone trying to claim the Bible lines up with religion, or the Hindu scriptures, or the Qur'an, or the Dharmas, etc. Are looking at it through and extrme bias and don't understand science.

Holy books are the interpritations of myths and rules based on the ideas and philosophies at the time.

The Bible was written when people had no idea about germs or mental illness ( causing peopel to think that disease was caused by sin literally or demons), That the earth was flat ( because it had corners and was set upon pillars), that the world was encompasses completely by a flood ( laws of the conservation of energy completely goes against this, and if there truly was a canopy of water above the earth, we would have died from lack of sunlight or crushed by the pressure. We lived in a geocentric universe ( Relativity shows us that if this was true, we would have collided with Jupiter years ago, and nothing would keep the sun from spinning off into space leaving us behind.

The Bible was written by several authors with little experience outside their understanding. There was a reason why during the enlightenment when the Bible was finally released to the public, why so many left the church and denominations splintered, along side the rise of Deism and agnosticism. Science shows us that the Bible can't be taken literally.

And Pard, if you didn't want this to turn into a debate about creation, what the heck did you want to talk about?

 

[shodan]

Verse 3 isn't where the week started. If you look through the whole story, you see that "and there was evening and there was morning..." always comes after a description of what happened on that day. Now, you read what you yourself posted.

“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.†Deu. 20[correction, that is Exodus 20:11]

The creation of the heavens and the earth was part of what happened during those 6 days. {not so, "creation" is in v. 1, the condition of the earth in v. 2 precedes the remedy of that condition which starts in v.3]

If you go to Genesis !, each day starts with God speaking and acting, "And God said..."
And on the 7th he rests from his work.

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day....[literally day one]

Gen. 1:1 God creates the universe [the heavens and the earth--like 'head and foot' this is a figure of speech[merism] for totality when two opposites ends are are used.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.

--Here, we have heavens and the earth and the sea etc. This is not the simple form of a merism. It is addressing not what God did in Gen. 1:1, rather what he did in v. 3 and following.

--Here, God" made..." not "created" ...two different words, "made" has the same sense as when we say we "made" the bed. We did not create it. It was already there {Just as the Universe is there in Gen. 1:1 when God "created" it] we put the bed in order, just as God put his creation in order in v. 3 and following.

Why did he have to put it in order? Read v. 2 {the darkness, mentioned last, is the first condition given a remedy in v. 3 with "let there be light"]

--During the week, [v.3 following] "heavens" "earth" are used in different senses. " 6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters... 8And God called the firmament Heaven..." [we would say 'sky' as does the NIV]

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas:

Now look again at Exodus 20:11...This is what it is describing...sky, dry land, seas, etc, in parallelism with the week =Genesis 1:3 and following.

 

[jasoncran]

its hard to fit evolution in when you genesis written the way it is,proper exegisis of any verse requires us to look at the time written and the audience. and the culture etc

genesis doesnt seem like hebrew poetry, unless some one can show me otherwise.

If you check commentaries, you will find your conclusion correct: Not hebrew poetry.

There is a wonderful symmetry to it.

theres a link here posted on the hebrew block logic vs our linear logic. that is a type of hebrew poetry but that doenst mean that the chapters in question werent literal just arranged differently.

 

[tig]

Just chiming in for a moment...

The Bible and science fit together wonderfully. Science is the study of God's creation.

The problem arises when science tries to do anything but agree with the Bible. I am referring to scientists who have admitted that things int he Bible, like the flood, make the most sense but they will never admit it because it is in the Bible. When we try to tailor fit our science to work AROUND the Bible instead of WITH the Bible, this is when science and the Bible clash.

Thought it may seem bleak, science, real science, will always back up the Bible 100%.

Bob,

Because I really do not want to argue with you, I'm just letting you know that was for Theo. Oh... and I will not be arguing with you. Sorry, got other things to do.

Actually, science is "knowledge", or "accurate" knowledge as opposed to what is "false", or the study of knowledge. And yes, it does appear that the bible and science do line up together, as you put it, wonderfully. In fact, the bible is science, since it is claimed to be written by the one who has true knowledge of what happened.

But....I see nothing bleak about it. That book, the bible, is God's communication directly to us, and in the end, it is the good news that prevails, not bleak news.

And yes, according to that book, it is possible to see the timeframe in which the world and all things were created. Why? Because God knew (even designed it that way) that man would claim to have risen from the dust of the ground by his power. And man would use all kinds of deviant ways to "prove" this "theories" or "beliefs".

Of course, radiometric dating, ect. is not accurate. Would never hold up in a court of law, though "science" teachers claim it is fact (no worries, men and women claim all kinds of things as fact). It only gives general time frames for the ages of things and it varies wildly, and is based on assumptions that cannot be known.

To touch on evolution, the bible does not say things do not "evolve" or "adapt", and maybe even suggest that things do "change" to a certain degree. But the bible definately conflicts with "orgins by evolution".

Misunderstanding of the great flood, or denying it, seems to be one of the ways man has fallen into the trap of the error of an old earth, and origins by evolution, ect. By that great flood most of the fossils we find today were formed, as well as most of our fuels that we consume, and our vast and varying landscapes we enjoy (including the continents).

And to say that the geneologies in the bible are not accurate enough to be relied upon is as good as denying that there is a God. If the geneologies are screwed up, then we must assume all of the information in the bible is screwed up, and that is something that anyone who seeks can find out.

I myself have been a doubter in many areas that the bible speaks of. But....after coming to my whits end of searching through endless religions, and theories of man, I finally had to search what the one who claimed to be there at the time it all happened had to say about it for himself.

The conclusion I came to? Reading the oneness and meaning of the whole story of the bible, how it is consistent through out (though being written over thousands of years, and by many writers), and what the purpose and intent the bible says creation is all about, all these things seem to be completely consistant with what can be seen and observed, I am completely convinced that what the bible says is literally true, and spiritually true.

JC warned us of the leaven (teaching) of the Pharasees and Herod. Both these organizations are based on the "knowledge of good and evil" and are surely dead because of it. Neither of these organization speak the truth, but speak things for their own gain, gainsayers they are called. Origins by evolution, is the leaven of Herod (the State), and it's institutions (of education, ect.) garner much profit ($) from mankind by it's teaching.

Of course, JC didn't only warn us of Herod (the state), but also the Pharasees (temple worship). They (of the Pharasee like religions) believe in their own kind of "self creation" or "evolution" into the "sons and daughters of God". That men and women can somehow become something other than what they are already. Both organizations feed off the knowledge of good and evil and that is how they determine the state of things.

But the bible, it gives glory to God, for the creation of all things physical, and for the creation of all things spiritual. Whereas, Herod (the state) gives glory to man for rising out of the dust, and the Pharasees (temple or churches) give glory to man for his own salvation. But the One who God sent, JC (yeah, the one who was raised from the dead, and by whose birth and death we keep time by) , he gave glory to God for the creation of the earth and gave God glory for the birth of his own children.

I guess that's the difference in the teachings of God and man. Man glorifies man, God has to tell the truth, and tells us that it is he that did all these things.

 

[Scotth1960]

Your not out of tune with the Word for doing this. Google how many Christian denominations there are and you'll find more than 38,000 (literally). This site is full of them. Look at the wisemen. They could be accused of date setting... no angels told them, they studied the stars and prophecy. Today, they would be called many harsh things by most Christians views

Dear Truth, I take on faith, as an axiom (unprovable assumption) that the world was created in September of 7508 BC. Perhaps in 7509 BC in September. The count may be off by a year or so, because it is impossible to know for sure which month or day or time God created the world in. He created time with the world, and the world with time. This is the Byzantine Church calculation of the Bible date of creation. It is impossible to PROVE Darwin's theory of evolution, and impossible to KNOW FOR SURE the age of the universe (the COSMOS) and of the earth. I believe the world is about 7512 years old now. That is, following the date in the OLD ORTHODOX PRAYER BOOK, 2nd ed., Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ (OLD RITE), Erie, PA Copyright 2001 AD. By Archpriest Steven (Pimen) Simon, editor.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Not quite that simple -

So my question is... is it twisting scripture to take information that anyone with a Bible can find and adding them up to find the date of creation?"

Nope - but there are other considerations.

The Genealogies aren't necessarily complete enough to allow accuracy. AND even if they were - they only take you back to Adam - but not necessarily to the beginning of Creation - unless you're willing to commit to a 168 hour creation process beginning in Gen 1:1.

Ussher already did a Genealogical time line - that's considered controversial.

 

[Scotth1960]

However Genesis was written and whoever wrote it, the world still isn't 6000 years old.


It would be a strange and deceitful god who would tell such an elaborate lie.

Who's to say the world wasn't created 5 minutes ago and we all appeared with a set of false memories of a life that didn't happen?


Hebrew's not my strong point, but I thought Adam was formed out of earth and Eve from his rib. Neither were created from nothing.


However it happened, it wasn't 6000 years ago.

Dear logical bob, I believe the world is 7,519 years old because the world was created in 5008 BC. It probably began on Sept. 1, 5008 AD, because the Jewish and church year begin in September of our Roman calendar.
If it's good enough for the Constantinopolitan ("Byzantine") Greek Orthodox Church (and the Russian Orthodox Church, etc.), it is good enough for me. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS I reject Darwin's unprovable theory of biological evolutionism.

 

[cyberjosh]

This is a funny way to start a post where you go on to argue for a date for creation!

Genealogies have gaps. You cannot determine ages from them.

Some geneologies have gaps but not all. The question is, does Genesis' geneology have gaps in it? Has anyone done a study on this or compared it to the other lists such as those in Chronicles? That would greatly clarify the issue if a comparison could be established. I'm too lazy to embark on such a study right now.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Dear Friends, Following the Byzantine Church calculation, I believe the world and man were created in September either of 5509 or 5508 BC. So the world is approximately 7512 years old. OLD ORTHODOX PRAYER BOOK 2nd ed. Archpriest Pimen (Steven) Simon, Ed., Erie PA Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite). Does this matter? Well, the truth matter. The truth is, this side of the second coming of Christ our God, we probably will not know for sure how old man and the earth really are. We take it only as an unproved unprovable axiom of faith. In Erie Scott Harrington

Can you provide a source for this calculation? Is it just from that prayer book? I would like to see how the eastern orthodox Church (if the whole orthodox church believes that) arrived at that number. Are there any articles on the internet that cover what you are refering to?

 

[Scotth1960]

Can you provide a source for this calculation? Is it just from that prayer book? I would like to see how the eastern orthodox Church (if the whole orthodox church believes that) arrived at that number. Are there any articles on the internet that cover what you are refering to?

Dear Cyberjosh, I believe the EOC teaches 5508 BC as date for creation as a theologoumenon, not a required dogma for all Christians. There has not been an ecumenical council to determine this question. The Church Fathers are unanimous that God created everything in 6 days. When He did it is uncertain. We cannot assume from the silence of Scripture that there are significant gaps in the genealogies. So, I presume, using the genealogies, and the Septuagint text, which has different numbers for the age of the Genesis Patriarchs than in the Hebrew/KJV tradition, we arrive at 7,519 years ago the world began. That would be 5,508 BC. As for the September 1, date, I did not read that from any Eastern Orthodox source. It was my inference from the fact that the Church year begins on September 1, so September 1 would be a logical date for the year of creation to begin, too. But it's just an opinion, not a necessary doctrine all Christians must believe like the atonement through the shed blood of Christ on the cross and the resurrection of Christ after 3 days.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington
PS I don't know how Orthodox Christians calculated 5508 BC. How did Ussher arrive at 4004 BC?