[_ Old Earth _] Theist discussing genome sequencing

[VaultZero4Me]

Here is an interesting Youtube video of Ken Miller, who is a theist and professor of biology, discussing chromosome numbers in the great ape species.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdQRvSdL ... re=related

Any ID'ers know of any response to this, as I would be interested in reading or seeing it.

 

[John]

And DNA similarities are supposed to be evidence of common ancestry? I lol'd

 

[Barbarian]

The problem was that humans have 46 chromosomes and other apes have 48. Since losing a whole chromosome is lethal, we couldn't have lost one. So, scientists predicted that two ape chromosomes must have fused to form a single human one.

Now having sequenced both human and chimp DNA, we could check that prediction. Sure enough, the number 2 human chromosome shows the remnants of a second centromere, and telemeres, just where they were supposed to be.

A stunning confirmation of evolutionary theory.

The human chromosome is at the left. The corresponding two chimp chromosomes next to it. The gorilla and orangutan chromosomes are on the right.

 

[John]

Its irrelevant, Humans and chimps are 2 completely different creatures. and DNA similarity today, does not in any way provide evidance that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Its irrelevant, Humans and chimps are 2 completely different creatures. and DNA similarity today, does not in any way provide evidance that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

1. Saying something is irrelevant doesn't actually make it relevant. It is highly relevant.

2. You are way off the point. The point is that common decent made a prediction (the missing chrom.), which was verified after sequencing the genome.

Here is "history" (as you like to call it) being supported by tests we can do today.

Anyone know of any rebuttals to this by ID'rs? I would like to read it if there are some.

 

[Deep Thought]

So John, you are now an expert in DNA and know much better than scientists that have spent most of their life researching the field?

 

[John]

So John, you are now an expert in DNA and know much better than scientists that have spent most of their life researching the field?

It does not take much, These scientists are working off a assumption. If i had seen that in the lab i would just say God did that to make us different and separate from other animals. Or is there other examples of fused chromosomes in the animal kingdom?

 

[Jayls5]

So John, you are now an expert in DNA and know much better than scientists that have spent most of their life researching the field?

It does not take much, These scientists are working off a assumption. If i had seen that in the lab i would just say God did that to make us different and separate from other animals. Or is there other examples of fused chromosomes in the animal kingdom?

Wow. Blind dismissal of a scientific prediction gone exactly according to plan because it doesn't fit your world view properly. On that note, I'm done with this forum now.

Barbarian, I admire your patience with people like this. I simply don't have it anymore. They set up impossible criteria and strawmen left and right. It's absolutely intolerable.

 

[John]

You missed what i asked.

If i had seen that in the lab i would just say God did that to make us different and separate from other animals. Or is there other examples of fused chromosomes in the animal kingdom?

If there are other animals out there that also have fused chromosomes then this trait would not adhere just to humans and my "If i had seen that in the lab i would just say God did that to make us different and separate from other animals." would have no grounds. But if humans are the only ones to have this feature then yes, we are separate from other animals.

 

[Snidey]

Bad news then, john...

 

[John]

Bad news then, john...

Okay show me some then.

And if there is so what? So my thoughts on this issue were debunked i won't loose any sleep on it :

 

[Snidey]

What exactly would you like to see? DNA similarity between species? Seriously?

 

[John]

^ fused chromosomes in other animals. Humans have it are we the only ones?

 

[Snidey]

Chromosomes can fuse in other organisms as well.

 

[John]

^ I want animals. I want examples. (ones not induced by messing with them in the laboratory)

Take another 2 animals that supposedly share the same ancestor and find fused chromosomes in them.

 

[Snidey]

Once I have time to find some I will look. BTW since all animals share an ancestor, any two should be just fine.

 

[Snidey]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1269 ... t=Abstract

 

[John]

Once I have time to find some I will look. BTW since all animals share an ancestor, any two should be just fine.

Sorry i should have said find me 2 animals that share a common ancestor just like humans and apes supposedly had.

Its hard to do since i don't think there is a animal(s) out there that are so different and yet DNA shows us they are so close by way of a fused chromosome. I tried searching for it so far I've found nothing, it would seem that this fused chromosome is native to humans only. (outside of laboratory manipulation)

 

[Barbarian]

Karyotype evolution by chromosome fusion in the moth genus Orgyia
WALTHER TRAUT' and CYRIL A. CLARKE2
' Institut fur Biologie, Medizinische Universitat, Lubeck, Germany
Great Britain Department of Genetics and Microbiology, University of Liverpool, P.O. Box 147, Liverpool L69 3BX,
Traut, W. and Clarke, C. A. 1997. Karyotype evolution by chromosome fusion in the moth genus Urgyia. - Hereditus 126: 77-84. Lund, Sweden. ISSN 0018-0661. Received November 15, 1996. Accepted January 15, 1997
Chromosome numbers vary greatly in Orgyiu, from low numbers, like n = 11 in 0. thyellina and n = 14 in 0. antiqua, to a high number, n = 30, as in 0. recens and 0. ericue. Meiotic synapsis was regular in 0. thyellina and 0. antiqua; 11 and 14 normal bivalents, respectively, were found in meiosis. The paired homologues displayed homologous chromomere patterns. In the species hybrid between antiqua and thyellina, many synapsed chromosome segments were found in meiosis. This indicates sufficient segmental homology between chromosomes of the two species although the paired pachytene chromosome segments rarely displayed similar chromomere patterns. Chromosomes switched pairing partners,
thus forming multivalents, linked by chiasmata in males, and long synaptic chains in the achiasmatic females. Multivalent formation is understood as the consequence of a separate evolution of the two species from a species with a high chromosome number. Multiple chromosome fusions resulted in similarly low chromosome numbers but different
segmental compositions of the chromosomes in the two species.
Walther Traut, Institut fur Biologie, Medizinische Universitat, Ratzeburger Allee 160, 0-23538 Labeck, Germany

 

[John]

Chromosomal rearrangements such as Robertsonian (Rb) fusions constitute a major phenomenon in the evolution of genome organization in a wide range of organisms. Although proximate mechanisms for the formation of Rb fusion are now well identified, the evolutionary forces that drive chromosomal evolution remain poorly understood. In the house mouse, numerous chromosomal races occur in nature, each defined by a unique combination of Rb fusions. Among the 106 different Rb fusions that were reported from natural populations, the low involvement of chromosome 19 in Rb fusions is striking, prompting the question of the randomness of chromosomal involvement in Rb fusions. We uncover a significant quadratic relationship between chromosome size and probability of fusing, which has never previously been in this species. It appears that fusions involving chromosome 19 are not particularly infrequent, given the expected low fusion probability associated with the chromosome's size. The results are discussed, assessing selective processes or constraints that may operate on chromosome size.

Is this showing a fusion between 2 separate species of mouse that share a common mouse ancestor, or a chromosome fusing with other chromosomes already existing inside the mouse?

EDIT: same goes for Barbarians last post on the moth.