Theistic evolution, what is it ?

[happyjoy]

[youtube:2wms1qr2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1IGbWF8Dfg[/youtube:2wms1qr2]

 

[happyjoy]

Hey I can't believe I am posting a Glenn Beck Clip. His Radio show, exposes faith healers.




[youtube:37z2bb9z]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCJ9v_-aJho[/youtube:37z2bb9z]

 

[Bent Radar]

Jason if all this magic/miracle/demon/ stuff is true. Show me some. Let's get down to brass tax. It just isn't real. There is reality and there is fantasy. ...

The universe is governed by natural laws.

So from your posts you seem to be saying:

1) miracles do not occur in the ordinary course of nature,
2) therefore miracles are not possible.

You're assuming that reports of miracles are false, but your second premise depends on this assumption.

That's called begging the question. ;)

 

[happyjoy]

Jason if all this magic/miracle/demon/ stuff is true. Show me some. Let's get down to brass tax. It just isn't real. There is reality and there is fantasy. ...

The universe is governed by natural laws.

So from your posts you seem to be saying:

1) miracles do not occur in the ordinary course of nature,
2) therefore miracles are not possible.

You're assuming that reports of miracles are false, but your second premise depends on this assumption.

That's called begging the question. ;)

Well if my logic is so flawed there should be plenty of miracles/magic to post. No cancer or inner ear infections either. Let's see some legs regrow, or severe brain trauma, or person with face burned off, or Downs healed.

 

[jasoncran]

you are by no means a christian in that thinking. i hate to say that. if Jesus is not the son of God, and did not those miracles, then God is a liar. and no person is saved and all that there is opinions. and we have a lot of that here. and upon death poof nothing.

they have been quite a few false fossil evidence of evolution, yet you cling to that. God can heal the lost limbs, but he chooses not to.

 

[happyjoy]

you are by no means a christian in that thinking. i hate to say that. if Jesus is not the son of God, and did not those miracles, then God is a liar. and no person is saved and all that there is opinions. and we have a lot of that here. and upon death poof nothing.

they have been quite a few false fossil evidence of evolution, yet you cling to that. God can heal the lost limbs, but he chooses not to.

Oh Jason. You don't get to decide what a Christian is. I am one, and I don't have to believe in magic to be one. You say God can heal lost limbs, but it isn't just lost limbs, or burn victims, or downs, or mental retardation. There is no magic happening at all.

I encourage you to reassess your hard angry stance on this. Those who are steeped in superstition are much more likely to be taken advantage of by con men.

 

[Bent Radar]

Well if my logic is so flawed there should be plenty of miracles/magic to post.

No, if your logic is flawed then you've failed to show that miracles are impossible.

No cancer or inner ear infections either. Let's see some legs regrow, or severe brain trauma, or person with face burned off, or Downs healed.

Oh, so a miracle has never occurred in the entire course of human history because you have not witnessed one that fits your subjective criteria. 2

Was this argument from ignorance supposed to salvage your previous fallacy?

I think what your case against miracles needs at this point is... a miracle. ;)

 

[seekandlisten]

I think ICP makes an interesting point when they put it like this in their song Miracles.

If magic is all we've ever know
Then it's easy to miss what really goes on
But I've seen miracles in every way
And I see miracles everyday
Oceans spanning beyond my sight
And a million stars way above em at night
We don't have to be high to look in the sky
And know that's a miracle opened wide
Look at the mountains, trees, the seven seas
And everything chilling underwater, please
Hot lava, snow, rain and fog
Long neck giraffes, and pet cats and dogs
And I've seen eighty-five thousand people
All in one room, together as equals
Pure magic is the birth of my kids
I've seen ---- that'll shock your eyelids
The sun and the moon, and even Mars
The Milky Way and ------- shooting stars
UFOs, a river flows
Plant a little seed and nature grows
Niagara falls and the pyramids
Everything you believed in as kids
------- rainbows after it rains
there's enough miracles here to blow your brains
I fed a fish to a pelican at Frisco bay
It tried to eat my cell phone, he ran away
And music is magic, pure and clean
You can feel it and hear it but it can't be seen

cheers

 

[Bent Radar]

i have pondered that for months. if it happens by natural events then how can it be god doing it.

Hey jasoncran, I just wanted to submit a consideration. Are you opposed to seeing God's "guiding hand" in the development of a human, from conception to birth?

In other words, there is not necessarily a fiat miracle involved in embryonic development but we still may thank God for the unique creation of life.

If you are not opposed to this idea, couldn't this idea be applied also to God's guiding hand in the evolutionary process?

 

[Caroline H]

In other words, there is not necessarily a fiat miracle involved in embryonic development but we still may thank God for the unique creation of life.

Every single stage of development is a miracle. Left to its own it would not happen at all :yes

 

[happyjoy]

Well if my logic is so flawed there should be plenty of miracles/magic to post.

No, if your logic is flawed then you've failed to show that miracles are impossible.

No cancer or inner ear infections either. Let's see some legs regrow, or severe brain trauma, or person with face burned off, or Downs healed.

Oh, so a miracle has never occurred in the entire course of human history because you have not witnessed one that fits your subjective criteria. 2

Was this argument from ignorance supposed to salvage your previous fallacy?

I think what your case against miracles needs at this point is... a miracle. ;)

I simply point to the obvious. You say magic and miracles are real. Show me some. That is how logic works.

 

[Mike]

Oh Jason. You don't get to decide what a Christian is. I am one, and I don't have to believe in magic to be one. You say God can heal lost limbs, but it isn't just lost limbs, or burn victims, or downs, or mental retardation. There is no magic happening at all.

I encourage you to reassess your hard angry stance on this. Those who are steeped in superstition are much more likely to be taken advantage of by con men.

Happyjoy, you seem to be the one who takes an angry tone with everything Christians believe.

By the way, you never answered my question. You said you're a Christian because you listen to what Jesus said. I asked how you know what He said, since you reject the Bible as Truth.

 

[Bent Radar]

Those who are steeped in superstition are much more likely to be taken advantage of by con men.

:toofunny

Begging the question again, I see.

You're assuming that superstitious people are more easily deceived by con-artists than non-superstitious people. That proposition requires evidence, and you haven't provided any.

By the way, are you implying that Christians who believe in the accounts of miracles in the bible are "steeped in superstition"? If so, congratulations. You've begged the question yet again.

 

[seekandlisten]

Those who are steeped in superstition are much more likely to be taken advantage of by con men.

:toofunny

Begging the question again, I see.

You're assuming that superstitious people are more easily deceived by con-artists than non-superstitious people. That proposition requires evidence, and you haven't provided any.

Let's see what one can dig up with not too much effort.

www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/v34/500872_100083_v1.pdf

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0

http://skeptically.org/logicalthreads/id15.html

There some reading to get you started.

cheers

 

[Bent Radar]

I simply point to the obvious.

Oh, I get it. Others should believe what you're saying is obvious, without you actually making any case for it.

You say magic and miracles are real. Show me some. That is how logic works.

So you're attempting to avoid the burden of proof for your claim by demanding proof of the contrary. Nice try.

 

[seekandlisten]

You say magic and miracles are real. Show me some. That is how logic works.

So you're attempting to avoid the burden of proof for your claim by demanding proof of the contrary. Nice try.

When someone says a fairy exists it is up to the 'fairy believer' to present some evidence to someone who doesn't believe fairies exist. Happyjoy asked for some proof of magic and miracles. I would be interested in what you have as well. I tend to think from your responses though that you may not have much at all.

cheers

 

[Bent Radar]

When someone says a fairy exists it is up to the 'fairy believer' to present some evidence to someone who doesn't believe fairies exist. Happyjoy asked for some proof of magic and miracles. I would be interested in what you have as well. I tend to think from your responses though that you may not have much at all.

The burden only takes effect when a claim is made.

 

[Mike]

When someone says a fairy exists it is up to the 'fairy believer' to present some evidence to someone who doesn't believe fairies exist. Happyjoy asked for some proof of magic and miracles. I would be interested in what you have as well. I tend to think from your responses though that you may not have much at all.

seekandlisten, if you watch theistic debates (I do a lot) you know both sides claim the burden of proof to be on the opposing argument. Atheists say it's the Christian's. The Christian claims it's the atheist's.

We're on a General Board section of a Christian forum. If someone comes to this board and claims that no miracles have taken place, I would think the burden definitely is on them. If this were a general secular board, either side could make equal claims, but I don't think it applies here.

Happyjoy, how do you know what Jesus taught?

 

[seekandlisten]

When someone says a fairy exists it is up to the 'fairy believer' to present some evidence to someone who doesn't believe fairies exist. Happyjoy asked for some proof of magic and miracles. I would be interested in what you have as well. I tend to think from your responses though that you may not have much at all.

The burden only takes effect when a claim is made.

Exactly!! So to make a claim that miracles and magic occur one must provide some evidence right? You simply avoid this task and claim the 'burden of proof' is on the one who doesn't believe such claims?? You may want to revisit the terms you use to try and avoid providing proof and how they are used properly.

Sai Baba performed many miracles/magic as well according to his followers. Do you believe this to be true? If not would the onus be on you to tell me why such things did not occur or on me to provide some evidence that such things did occur?

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, if you watch theistic debates (I do a lot) you know both sides claim the burden of proof to be on the opposing argument. Atheists say it's the Christian's. The Christian claims it's the atheist's.

I find in any debate when the 'burden of proof' argument is used without providing any evidence to your side of the argument, there really is no evidence for said side of argument. If there was, its not to hard to provide the evidence for such claims. If one chooses to not accept said evidence, well then they are inclined to provide evidence as to why they don't. That is how a rational argument works. If people just want to argue opinions on matters based on bias alone and who's right and who's wrong well then you'll see 'burden of proof', 'begging the question', 'logical fallacy', etc. come up.

We're on a General Board section of a Christian forum. If someone comes to this board and claims that no miracles have taken place, I would think the burden definitely is on them. If this were a general secular board, either side could make equal claims, but I don't think it applies here.

So on a secular board we are equal but on a Christian board belief trumps evidence. Why engage in rational discussions then. Just take a look around at this board and you can see that their are many different beliefs when it comes to being a Christian. Nowhere in the bible do I find a passage that states we get to take on God's role and decide who is and isn't acceptable. In my studies I have found that the bible can stand side by side with truth, it's the beliefs that it says certain things that tend to come into contradiction with evidence.

cheers