There Are NO Apostles Today

[Rodger]

Cornelius Acts 10 .Cornelius saw his vision before he even saw an apostle ! I see NO record of any apostle laying a hand on him at all . I do see the Holy Spirit fell on them ! There was no laying on of hands mentioned at ALL .
THEM THAT BELIEVE

Acts 10:44 Context​

41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

The Spirit fell on them all - Acts 10:44; 11:15
The gift of the Spirit had been poured out on them - Acts 10:45
The had received the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:47
They had been baptized in the Spirit - Acts 11:16
God gave them the same gift - Acts 11:17
God gave them the Holy Spirit - Acts 15:8

Peter emphasized that the event experienced by Cornelius and his household was the same thing that had happened at the beginning of the Church. "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:15-17). Read Peter's words again carefully.

 

[Free]

I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
2 Corinthians 12:11-12

• the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Those who believe the lie of cessationism have created their own “catch 22” by which they have decreed their are no apostles, when the signs of an apostle are signs, wonders, and mighty deeds.

This is just begging the question. There were certain criteria by which one could be an Apostle, one of the twelve, with the exception of Paul, who saw the resurrected Christ and received a clear Apostolic mandate to the Gentiles. These verses apply only to Paul as he is giving proof of his apostleship.

You are confusing proof with initial criteria. For example, if you break the law, thinking it is a sign you're the President of the U.S., you're going to jail. If you're already the President, before you break the law, then you can break the law with impunity, as we've seen recently.

Thank you for exposing yourself as the judge of the Lord’s servants.

There is nothing to suggest they're "the Lord's servants," and much to suggest they'll be those mentioned in Matt. 7:21-23.

Here’s what the scripture says about people who have a form of godliness but deny the power.

• having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:1-7


The baptism with the Holy Spirit is where we receive power to be witnesses.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8

When you deny the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you deny the power of God.

You're making assumptions. This has nothing to do with anything I stated.

 

[JLB]

This is just begging the question. There were certain criteria by which one could be an Apostle, one of the twelve, with the exception of Paul, who saw the resurrected Christ and received a clear Apostolic mandate to the Gentiles. These verses apply only to Paul as he is giving proof of his apostleship.

The scriptures that teach us about the signs of an apostle is “begging the question”?

That’s hilarious.

I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
2 Corinthians 12:11-12

• the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

 

[JLB]

As written , there are many false prophets. Some of them have been very popular (and still are!). Forums are unable to correct them, and often the rules of forums do not permit the truth about them, while mis-information is not only permitted, but even encouraged and promoted and protected.

If there are false apostles and prophets then that means there are true apostles and prophets.

You can’t have the counterfeit without the real.

 

[JLB]

There is nothing to suggest they're "the Lord's servants," and much to suggest they'll be those mentioned in Matt. 7:21-23.

Do you know personally anyone who is under the banner of the NAR?

Do you know their lifestyle, and have observed first hand everything they do in their life?

I don’t. I into there are false apostles and prophets.

I know many leaders in these movements have brought reproach on the name of the Lord for their actions of immortality.

But I also know what the scriptures teach us about people who have a form of godliness but deny the power…

 

[Free]

The scriptures that teach us about the signs of an apostle is “begging the question”?

That’s hilarious.

I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
2 Corinthians 12:11-12

• the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Yes, because you begin by assuming that having signs means one is an Apostle (never mind that many "signs" in modern times are fake). But signs on their own prove nothing; apostleship must be in place first.

Do you know personally anyone who is under the banner of the NAR?

Do you know their lifestyle, and have observed first hand everything they do in their life?

I don’t. I into there are false apostles and prophets.

I know many leaders in these movements have brought reproach on the name of the Lord for their actions of immortality.

I'm assuming you meant actions of "immorality." It is much worse than that--they continually take the name of the Lord in vain, with teachings full of heresy, refusing to deal with blatant abuses in their ranks, etc. It's all well documented. You could even just read Bill Johnson's books and those of his ministry to see the New Age and occult teachings.

But I also know what the scriptures teach us about people who have a form of godliness but deny the power…

Which includes NAR.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The real problem was the emergence of the Pentecostal denomination where by people "wanted" to do what they saw the Apostles do. They "Wanted" to se miracles and tongues and all the other sign gifts.

Of course, they did not want to understand that those sign gifts were given to the ELEVEN.

Afternoon, Rodger.

I think what you just said here is one of the big objections I have to Cessationism, however. I actually DO want to see miracles and sign gifts in operation because I think it was a vital part of the harvest that took place in New Testament times and would be again in the end-times. If you look closely, news "spread abroad" about Jesus when He worked miracles. If not, He would have just been considered a normal man. The power of God is what causes the good news to spread, and I don't think the end-time harvest is going to happen without it.

 

[follower]

If there are false apostles and prophets then that means there are true apostles and prophets.

You can’t have the counterfeit without the real.

No argument there. Finding ANYONE honest (true) is RARE TODAY.
THe false testimonies, even IF with apparent so-called miracles are flooding the forums and so forth.

Everything, all things, everything, must be given up to Jesus if/when He is to be Lord in a person's life.

 

[Rodger]

I think you have a simplistic solution to a simplistic problem. To deny the title to those not entitled, you would deny it even to those entitled, by denying that any are entitled. God has not scrapped the title, though as Paul noted, some wrongly claimed it (2 Cor.11:5,13): Paul did not use a tickbox to deny them the title. That said, I cringe when folk appropriate this term, even if the crown fits.

Behind the Twelve is the One Apostle, Jesus (Heb.3:1). This does not deny apostolic status to The Twelve, which became Eleven, until a Thirteenth was added just prior to Pentecost, ready to symbolise the Twelve-sons of Israel when the church celebrated its earlier birthday. Revelation recognises that imperfect as they were, The Twelve symbolised messiah’s New Jerusalem, his New Temple, etc. After Pentecost came other apostles, such as Paul and Barnabas (Ac.14:14), with Paul’s (and so presumably Barnabas’) apostleship being on par with the Twelve’s, and likely enough a Junia was a parity apostle. Subsequent Christ-apostles were and are simply not of the symbolic Twelve, but have walked in their shoes.

Be aware that any local church sending (αποστελλω), does not make anyone a church-apostle: Peter & John were sent by Jerusalem (Ac.8:14); Paul and Barnabas were sent by Antioch (Ac.13:3), and Ananias was sent by Christ but wasn’t an apostle of Christ (Ac.9:17).

The biblical criteria were not absolute but generally relative, eg pre-Pentecost it simply made sense to shortlist men who had walked with Yeshua, so were suitable as ethnic-Jewish witnesses (Ac.1:21 did not exclude from apostleship, Paul). Re. your list, Paul witnessed the resurrected Christ (all Christians do), was chosen by the spirit (all Christians are), and was able (as basically all C21 Christians are) to work signs and wonders. If there are C21 apostles (which I don’t doubt), they could tick all your boxes: he who appeared to Paul can appear to us. I dismiss your 3-fold idea, though noting that apostles still found C21 churches. Judas of Kerioth was an apostle who didn’t exactly found the global church, and the church in Rome was only indirectly founded by apostles, as are most churches today. But the core apostolic base of the New Israel, is our foundation today.

Apostolic Succession, BTW, is based on the idea that there were no apostles after the C1. It means that apostles were succeeded basically by the clergy, creeds, and canon, and began as a way to defeat Gnosticism. I do believe what you say, that there are NO, NONE, ZERO scriptures that say or suggest that there is any kind of Apostolic Succession. But I see no biblical grounds for denying that apostles of Christ, and priestly charismata, were limited to the C1.

I am able to offer for general use, links to my old college notes: https://e.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZkpidZzO5mRqrPu9HMUgYyC2iRob4SreL7, of which Pages 13-4 cover this topic.

You said.......
" But I see no biblical grounds for denying that apostles of Christ, and priestly charismata, were limited to the C1.".

For those reading this and have never heard of the term...."priestly charismata,
it is a Greek term that is employed in the New Testament for spiritual gifts, signifying concrete manifestations of God's grace, often used as a technical term, though it may refer to the gift of God generally.

Without a doubt, God graciously gives spiritual gifts to believers. Some of those are in Romans 12:6-8

• Teaching-- The gift of speaking forth God's messages, often focused on edification.
• Serving: The capacity to serve others selflessly and meet practical needs within the church.
• Preaching: The ability to communicate and explain God's truth effectively to others.
• Encouragement: The gift of encouraging and motivating others with spiritual growth & maturity.
• Giving: The ability to give generously and cheerfully
• Leadership: The gift of providing leadership, organization, and guidance within the church.
• Mercy: The gift of showing compassion, empathy, and kindness.
• Helps: The gift that comes from reaching out to those in distress.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Read Peter's words again carefully.

Peter's biggest struggle was racism, it took some hassles including a supernatural vision (Acts. 10:9-16) to convince him that the holy spirit was not exclusive to the Jews, it was extended to the gentiles. Cornelius the centurion was the first gentile follower whom the holy spirit fell upon, that is a milestone. Before him, everybody else including the 3000 and the Ethiopian eunuch was Jewish converts. It is written that salvation comes to all who believes, for the Jews first and then the Greeks (Rom. 1:15), that is the context. It's not about laying of hand or qualification of apostle.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (Acts 10:44-46)

 

[hawkman]

The Spirit fell on them all - Acts 10:44; 11:15
The gift of the Spirit had been poured out on them - Acts 10:45
The had received the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:47
They had been baptized in the Spirit - Acts 11:16
God gave them the same gift - Acts 11:17
God gave them the Holy Spirit - Acts 15:8

Peter emphasized that the event experienced by Cornelius and his household was the same thing that had happened at the beginning of the Church. "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:15-17). Read Peter's words again carefully.

The Holy Spirit fell on them after words were spoken , no laying on of hands .

Two of my Baptist friends received the gift of tongues while they were each alone in prayer because they asked for more from God . No laying on of hands .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The Holy Spirit fell on them after words were spoken , no laying on of hands .

Two of my Baptist friends received the gift of tongues while they were each alone in prayer because they asked fpr more from God . No laying on of hands .

No laying of hands on the 3000 at the Pentecost either.

 

[Rodger]

The Holy Spirit fell on them after words were spoken , no laying on of hands .

Two of my Baptist friends received the gift of tongues while they were each alone in prayer because they asked fpr more from God . No laying on of hands .

The reason I posted those Scriptures was to show that we do not need to lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit.

We can receive the Holy Spirit without such a person’s help. Cornelius in Acts chapter 10, He, and those around him, received the Holy Spirit while they were just listening to apostle Peter preaching. Nobody laid hands on any of them, or even prayed for them.

 

[Vinny37]

My simple solution is to believe what God said in His Word. I think that He was very clear.

The real problem was the emergence of the Pentecostal denomination where by people "wanted" to do what they saw the Apostles do. They "Wanted" to se miracles and tongues and all the other sign gifts.

Of course, they did not want to understand that those sign gifts were given to the ELEVEN.

Ouch, I always do a wry little smile at the, Well I believe the Bible, line, a game which we can all play. Yep, I too believe the Bible, but not so much in my own understanding of it. God spoke clearly; our ears hear unclearly. Fee & Stuart’s, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, can help even my old ears to hear a little better.

The charismata itself is traceable throughout church history, through Tertullian and through the Magic Methodists (Dave River’s There is a River). To some extent Topeka, Kansas, kicked off pentecostalism–there are many pentecostal denominations, BTW—when a biblical search by the students to find a common evidence to spirit-baptism, unearthed glossolalia as the linked biblical phenomenon. An easily verifiable link, BTW, now we have the long-lost key.

Many quite rightly want to be physically healed, or to spiritually be led by God. What’s wrong with that, I’d like to know? But in a sense of pride-want, I would, like you, rebuke (Lk.9:54). And I rebuke charismania as charismata-abuse. But the charismata which Jesus used, preceded him (eg Elisha) and exceeded the apostles (eg Philip (Ac.8); Corinthian rank and file Christians (1 Cor.12)).

And Ac.2:39 linked spirit-baptism to successive generations, with no biblical evidence that it would have some cut-off point in the C1, and no historical evidence that it did. I can quite understand that some, like myself, with to avoid that challenge, but I hold that we should follow the biblical evidence. Some allege that charismata were an imperfect, superseded by the perfect, then guess as to what the perfect (τελειον) was, misusing 1 Cor.13:10 which speaks of messiah’s still future return. Paul said that being imperfect, partial, charismata would only be superseded by the eschaton, our blessed hope: we are incomplete until we are complete. “Paul looked at prophecy, knowledge, and tongues, from an eschatological perspective. When the end of [the age] comes, speaking in tongues will no longer be appropriate or necessary (see Bertram, TDNT 4:919)” (David E Garland, 1 Corinthians (BECNT), 14290-2).

 

[hawkman]

The "things" done by those who were not Apostles were done through the "laying on of Hands" from the Apostles.

If you will take the time to do the work you will se that in In Acts 6:6, the apostles lay hands on the seven chosen men, setting them apart for service. Paul advises Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:14, "Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the elders."

Laying on of hands is not necessary according to your own post below .

The reason I posted those Scriptures was to show that we do not need to lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit.

By your own words and the Bible we see the Holy Spirit is imparted in BOTH ways with laying on of hand and not with hands !

 

[Rodger]

Laying on of hands is not necessary according to your own post below .

By your own words and the Bible we see the Holy Spirit is imparted in BOTH ways with laying on of hand and not with hands !

My goodness. Why is it necessary to explain every post.

Yes, I did say that the laying on of hands imparted to some the ability needed to validate what was said.
Yes, I did say that laying on of hands was no required in every instance with Cornilius being an example.

 

[Rodger]

Ouch, I always do a wry little smile at the, Well I believe the Bible, line, a game which we can all play. Yep, I too believe the Bible, but not so much in my own understanding of it. God spoke clearly; our ears hear unclearly. Fee & Stuart’s, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, can help even my old ears to hear a little better.

The charismata itself is traceable throughout church history, through Tertullian and through the Magic Methodists (Dave River’s There is a River). To some extent Topeka, Kansas, kicked off pentecostalism–there are many pentecostal denominations, BTW—when a biblical search by the students to find a common evidence to spirit-baptism, unearthed glossolalia as the linked biblical phenomenon. An easily verifiable link, BTW, now we have the long-lost key.

Many quite rightly want to be physically healed, or to spiritually be led by God. What’s wrong with that, I’d like to know? But in a sense of pride-want, I would, like you, rebuke (Lk.9:54). And I rebuke charismania as charismata-abuse. But the charismata which Jesus used, preceded him (eg Elisha) and exceeded the apostles (eg Philip (Ac.8); Corinthian rank and file Christians (1 Cor.12)).

And Ac.2:39 linked spirit-baptism to successive generations, with no biblical evidence that it would have some cut-off point in the C1, and no historical evidence that it did. I can quite understand that some, like myself, with to avoid that challenge, but I hold that we should follow the biblical evidence. Some allege that charismata were an imperfect, superseded by the perfect, then guess as to what the perfect (τελειον) was, misusing 1 Cor.13:10 which speaks of messiah’s still future return. Paul said that being imperfect, partial, charismata would only be superseded by the eschaton, our blessed hope: we are incomplete until we are complete. “Paul looked at prophecy, knowledge, and tongues, from an eschatological perspective. When the end of [the age] comes, speaking in tongues will no longer be appropriate or necessary (see Bertram, TDNT 4:919)” (David E Garland, 1 Corinthians (BECNT), 14290-2).

Lots of good info. I would only say that I would have to do some more work on Tertullian's influence on sign gifts.

I was under the impression that Tertullian was a key player in the transition of the church from a persecuted minority to a major influence in Roman society.

In his early ministry, he wrote his Apology, which defended the church against the persecutions of the state and explained the principle of religious liberty as an inalienable right of man.

I believe also that He was the first writer to use the word church to describe a specific building, rather than the assembled people. He was also the first to speak of a distinction between clergy and laity, though he affirmed the universal priesthood of the believers.

 

[Rodger]

My goodness. Why is it necessary to explain every post.

Yes, I did say that the laying on of hands imparted to some the ability needed to validate what was said.
Yes, I did say that laying on of hands was no required in every instance with Cornilius being an example.

Thanks for the responce.....I love you as well.

If I sounded rude, I apologize. This is not a good day for me. Of all the challenges I have had in my life, Getting old is the hardest thing I have ever done.

 

[hawkman]

Yes, I did say that the laying on of hands imparted to some the ability needed to validate what was said.
Yes, I did say that laying on of hands was no required in every instance with Cornilius being an example.

There is only one Holy Spirit and the Gifts are shared at the discretion of the Holy Spirit , all abilities come from the Holy Spirit not man .

1 Corinthians 6:17 Context​

14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[hawkman]

Thanks for the responce.....I love you as well.

If I sounded rude, I apologize. This is not a good day for me. Of all the challenges I have had in my life, Getting old is the hardest thing I have ever done.

You are fine brother , I am getting there myself . We can hold each other up in prayer .