There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Mustard Seed]

If the soul is immortal no one can kill it. By very definition, an immortal soul never dies.

The soul that sins shall die.
The soul is immortal and never dies.
Huh.

The sin of the world is "UNBELIEF". God will be the vanquisher of the Wicked. The soul that Unbelieves to the very end, will indeed... DIE.

 

[Mustard Seed]

No, just the unbelieving Jews.
God gave His laws to them only.

A New covenant Adoptionist. This is going to take me time to process. I congratulate you! You are the first I've ever met, and I have been around! Wow! Pleased to meet you!

 

[Dmytro]

Dmytro, it is confusing to say that "The Father is the only True God". This is a "Unitarian" Statement. It is not your belief system.

If you believe that the Son has Always existed and Never not Existed and is the very TRUE FACE of God (Which is exactly what all scripture reveals).... You, in your Heart, know that The Son is TRUE God.

Jesus revealed Himself "Subordinate" to His Father to demonstrate that HIS FATHER is HUMBLE. If God came to earth outright saying... back off Jack... I'm the King of Kings, Bow down plebes... He would not have been demonstrating HIS (His Father's) true character. Jesus revealed that THE FATHER was IN HIM.

I will make this more clear.

We have the Holy Spirit of the Son, within us.
Jesus had the very Spirit of His Father, within Him.

Jesus Christ is the HEAD of us.
The Father is the HEAD of Jesus Christ.

If we declare that The Father is OUR HEAD, we would then be saying that WE are TRUE GOD.
If we declare that The Son is OUR HEAD, we are saying that we are "by choice", Slave to the one TRUE GOD, but that we are NOT GOD.

If we were to say that THE FATHER is the very SPIRIT within us, We would be saying that to SEE us is to See the FATHER.
If we say that the Holy Ghost of Jesus is the very SPIRIT within us, we are saying that imperfect us, is indwelled by the Provision of the FATHER, which is the Holy Spirit of HIS Son.

It doesn't seem like a big deal, but one belief bypasses our need for Jesus, while the other one, SPIRITUALLY BINDS us to Jesus metaphorically as surely as Lover's are "One Flesh". By being Bone of Christ's Bone, we are Grafted in to Jesus, Who is and always has been Directly OF His Father (with the exception of "Father why have You forsaken me", which was for our sakes)

You are formulating everything so good :yes I’m neither a trinitarian nor of course a unitarian.
‘you, the only true God’ this is how Jesus prayed to the the Father in John 17. This surely has nothing to do with Jesus not being equal to the Father by nature. I believe he did that to let us know the Father is Jahweh of OT because Yahweh said he’s the only one. Also ‘God’ in NT in most cases reference the Father. So I, yes, I believe the Father is the only true God, the God and the Head of Jesus, his one and only from eternity to eternity divine Son equal to him by nature, who is our Head. And their Holy Spirit is in us. And in this way the Father, the Son and we, the chosen once, are in perfect unity! This is what I believe now, I of corse may be incorrect in something.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Nowhere in scripture is found “immortal soul” , “never dying soul” or anything similar.

Mashiach Ben Yosef, Ben YHWH literally said that only HE can kill the soul. I think that indicates that the soul is Immortal. Only the Creator of the Soul can destroy the SOUL. This is my opinion.

 

[Mustard Seed]

You are formulating everything so good :yes I’m neither trinitarian nor of course unitarian.
‘you, the only true God’ this is how Jesus prayed to the the Father in John 17. This surely has nothing to do with Jesus not being equal to the Father by nature. I believe he did that to let us know the Father is Jahweh of OT because Yahweh said he’s the only one. Also ‘God’ in NT in most cases reference the Father. So I, yes, I believe the Father is the only true God, the God and the Head of Jesus, his one and only from eternity to eternity divine Son equal to him by nature, who is our Head. And their Holy Spirit is in us. And in this way the Father, the Son and we, the chosen once, are in perfect unity! This is what I believe now, I of corse may be incorrect in something.

I appreciate your Honesty. I go by a "label" of my own choosing if it helps any. Our conversations have worked there way into a large study of the book of Hebrews that I have just started. I know you don't go by labels, but if everything we have spoken of reveals us on the same page... I can copy and paste my writeup that sincerely explains my precise stance. I believe that you may be able to better convey your stance to some, without being misunderstood as ignorant to the Triplicity of our Une Savior. Should I share the write up?

 

[Dmytro]

To say that Jesus died is to say Jesus was mortal. How did Jesus become mortal?

He died according to God’s plan, he committed his spirit into his Father’s hands by his own will, not like we. He had no sin so he wasn’t subject to death I think.

 

[Dmytro]

What does “made alive in the spirit mean”?

Was his spirit dead?

Here is the true sense of the Greek:

“Having been truly put to death in the flesh, but given life by the Spirit.”
It refers to dying and being raised from the dead by the Spirit of the Father.

Yes, this is the Spirit who makes alive, the flesh profits nothing

 

[Dmytro]

I appreciate your Honesty. I go by a "label" of my own choosing if it helps any. Our conversations have worked there way into a large study of the book of Hebrews that I have just started. I know you don't go by labels, but if everything we have spoken of reveals us on the same page... I can copy and paste my writeup that sincerely explains my precise stance. I believe that you may be able to better convey your stance to some, without being misunderstood as ignorant to the Triplicity of our Une Savior. Should I share the write up?

of course :yes

 

[Mustard Seed]

of course :yes

P.S. I'm going to have to update it, because LeviR is the first "Adoptionist" theologian that I have ever met that understands the new covenant! I'm still processing this!

There are 4 main camps of thought involving the BEING of God.

1: Trinity - HARD Division of the Being of God, of ONE Substance (Essence), Three "Distinct" subsistence's that share the SAME Essence (Substance)
This is a very impersonal way to show the matter. It's like showing up on your wedding night and pulling out a math equation that is your intended plans for the celebration. It is the collective result of combatting Unitarianism that originated around 260 AD from a theologian named (Arius). The collective Body that understood the critical importance of understanding the mechanism of Salvation as revealed by Jesus Christ to us knew that it was CRITICAL to understand that God is SIMULTANEOUSLY ONE, YET THREE. All of the Body infighting over this matter led to some unfortunate events. Arianism isn't actually indicative of slaughtering someone as a heretic, but, alas, it happened. So, what happened next? Everybody and their Brother gave up on showing that God is Utterly ONE, as surely that HE is utterly THREE. The Hardline stance that was adopted, was to indoctrinate those that didn't personally study with the "TRINITY" Doctrine.

Trouble is, people that only memorized the idea had utterly no idea how God is also genuinely ONE. It was decided that not only would the Body double down on the Trinity doctrine, but that it would continually legally evaluate words on a level that became disastrous. Theological nerds that memorize all of these various "Heresies" get so flush full of all of the doctrines of man, that they forget everything spoken of has to do with Biblical Canon and is contained within Biblical Canon. If you find yourself excited to reveal what the Holy Spirit of Christ has revealed to you about the amazing Being of God and some Doctrine of Men warrior desires to label you with some Heretical "ISM"... ask them to build Doctrine from Canon Alone to proof that God is Three, then turn around and build the Doctrine to prove that God is One from Biblical Canon, Alone. They'll fold their cards every time, because you just can't do it without violating one of the umpteen thousand (Exaggerating to make a point) Trinity Heresy accusations! Why is this? Because everyone was, at a point, trying to defend an extrapolated man made doctrine that was essentially full of so many eraser marks that the paper got worn thin and weathered. It happens! This doctrine can get you through scripture, but it won't reveal the very Romance and Love that God intended us to see within scripture! MAKE NO MISTAKE, the Bible is God's LOVE LETTER to His Cherished Creation.

Allow me to share the woes that Brick and Mortar based believers that don't dive into scripture run into with the inability to proof this in scripture, during witness. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God, Three Persons. Same Essence, but distinct subsistence's. Three Personalities, but not three Persons, well, kind of Three Persons, but Not actual divided Persons, just One God with Three Personalities, Well, not Personalities, but subsistence's... wait, did I just commit heresy? Hold up, let me read through the 7 trillion pages of opinions on the one single page... wait... which Creed do I use?!? Um... yeah... Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 3 but 1. Give this to someone in good faith and they will be able to hobble around with it, but put them in front of a Unitarian Jew, Muslim, Christian Adoptionist or Atheist with actual Biblical questions that understand Greek, Manuscripts, Hebrew, Aramaic and the squishy words that are a result of the Post Diaspora Jews blurring the Name of God, within scripture to prevent their enemies from learning it... and they will be eaten alive.

2: Unitarianism- Bottom line, this doctrine always has some way to insinuate that Jesus was "Created" and usually that the HOLY SPIRIT is just a "Force, Will or Power" of the Father towards creation. It's named "Unitarian" because it is a simple way of saying that the adherents to this belief Believe that ONLY THE FATHER is God. Every other mental gymnastic that occurs beyond this is simply a flowing way of defending that ONLY God the Father is Actually TRUE God. Side note... the most advanced form of Unitarianism is Adoption... and let me tell you, though I can't agree with this view, due to all scripture, they are typically 100 notches above your typical believer, when it comes to biblical knowledge! These folks are deadly accurate at defending their position in scripture, by going to the codex's, manuscripts, fragments and every known source of scripture on God's green earth. If Adoptionist's would accept church positions to teach the Tri-Unity of God, they would be better at it than MOST! They would then go home and go back to Adoption. I'm not kidding, I respect the living daylights out of these theologians! Do I disagree with them... You bet ya. Do I take them for granted? Nope! They studied to earn their theological chops!

Um... I'm having to edit this. I met a new covenant Adoptionist, today! So, there's that. I don't even know where to put this!

3: Modalism- Bottom line, this flat out says that God is Jesus, period. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all identically ONE and not distinct. Ironically, this actually has more supporting scripture than the final understood Trinity doctrine, but it runs into theological walls at more difficult passages.

4: Tri-Unity of God (This is my opinion and I'll just slap a Link in that shows how I have actively gone about proofing it within scripture). Adding this. If it was a label, it would be (TriUneitarian) The E has to remain in place to distinguish the One of the matter.

This is actually a massive post on another site. I'm going to migrate all of the work to this site, which is amazing (I mean the site, not my work)!, re-link it and all that Jazz, when I'm done with Hebrews chapter 1. I'm already on the 3rd Op part and still haven't got past verse 3.... LOL

 

[Dmytro]

Not according to Scripture. Jesus doesn't have the power or authority of God such as in Matthew 24:36 or Acts 1:7.

Matthew 24
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

Acts 1
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus does have all the power and authority and everything that belong to the Father because the Father handed it over to him. The Father has given to him everything.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Jesus does have all the power and authority and everything that belong to the Father because the Father handed it over to him. The Father had given to him everything.

I can confirm that Hebrews Chapter 1 makes this so abundantly clear that it's just plain made of Titanium!

 

[Dmytro]

I would go a step further and say that the soul is immortal and only the Creator of it can "Destroy it". But, I think we lean differently, as you believe the soul ceases, when the tent collapses, while I believe in Sheol and Heaven being places of current residence.

I believe both just and unjust rest in Sheol until Jesus’ return when he will call and those whom the Father gave to him will go out of Sheol into eternal life. Then at the end of 1000 years the unjust will rise to be judged according to their deeds before the Great White Throne and will end up in Gehinnom where Sheol and Death, the Adversary, his angels and Antichrist with the false prophet are.

 

[Mustard Seed]

I believe both just and unjust rest in Sheol until Jesus’ return when he will call and those whom the Father gave to him will go out of Sheol into eternal life. Then at the end of 1000 years the unjust will rise to be judged according to their deeds before the Great White Throne and will end up in Gehinnom where Sheol and Death, the Adversary, his angels and Antichrist with the false prophet are.

I can see how you theologically arrived there! That is actually a new take on the matter for me, from the direction that I usually go in my pet opinion on that matter! I will study your timelines so I can file that in my mental (State of the Dead) file cabinet! Interesting! Very Interesting! Thank you for sharing that! It's kind of a scriptural "Purgatory" concept. I will confess, those are some of my favorite to study out!

True universalists... which I'm not one of... but true universalists believe that Gehinnom will be a "Purgatory" purging event that eventually yields salvation to all. It's super hard to find those folks, because pitchforks and torches come out by other posters before I can fully understand their view.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Is The Word a name of Jesus?

It could be used as a name for Jesus, but only either before His birth "as Jesus" or after His ascension into heaven.
While on earth, He gave up much of what He had as when He was one with God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

YHWH is the personal name of God. A single distinct person, as in He alone is YHWH.

OK.
Got a scripture you use to validate that ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

There are multiple examples of Word and Spirit being synonymous.

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

Your "word" wasn't capitalized, so just means 'that which is spoken'.
Not Jesus pre-birth from a woman.
"Spirit" isn't capitalized either.

“In Him was life, and the life was the light of men” John 1:4
It is the Spirit that gives life. Jesus’ words are Spirit. His words are life.
In him was life. In him was Spirit. His words are Spirit.
Jesus’ words are synonymous with Spirit.

Some of the Lord's words were certainly Spirit.

When the Word became flesh, so did the Spirit.
The Spirit of Who?
The Spirit of the Father.

Spirits are by definition without solid form.
I think you have gone too far.

To say the Word was with God is synonymous with saying the Spirit was with God

I don't think 'the Word" was a spirit.
If He were, how could God make man in His own image ?
We would all be spirits !

(The Spirit comes forth from the Father)
And to say the Word was God, is synonymous with saying the Spirit was God.

Not necessarily.
But in certain contexts it would be true.

When the Word became flesh, so did the Spirit of the Father which is God.

Now I think you went too far.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I replied to your comment in regard to Jesus and Abraham.
The Logos was who Jesus, a living being, was referred to. They are not two people but one.

Instead of using Latin, or Greek, or whatever, how about just using English.
What is Logos in English ?

The mind contains memories. Jesus testified to what He saw and heard in the Fathers presence from His mind. The only such eyewitness of God.

From His memory, OK.
Though I wouldn't bet money on Jesus being the only witness.

The word became flesh. A body was prepared for Him. The Him preexisted that body.

The "Word" became flesh.
The Word preexisted Jesus.

Hebrews 13:8
Hebrews 10:5-7
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’

I am glad He did !
I am also glad we can do His will too, since the resurrection of Christ Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

So if it was not the Father's Power as you claim, exactly whose Power was it that Jesus was given ALL of ?

Mat 28:18
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

There are a good number of things that have either been given or granted to the Jesus. You may see John 17:2 where the Father gave Jesus power to give eternal life. Or Matthew 9:4-8 where the Father gave Jesus and men authority to forgive sins.

That power and/or authority was given to Jesus, it follows that it was bestowed upon him by a higher authority which would of course be God the Father. Jesus had a mission to fulfill and he, along with his disciples, needed to be empowered by someone greater than themselves, Lord God Almighty.

So we should understand that in being "given" power that it follows Jesus didn't possess it inherently.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus does have all the power and authority and everything that belong to the Father because the Father handed it over to him. The Father has given to him everything.

Needs to be more nuanced than that or we would have to create a doctrine wherein Christians become God based on what Paul said.

Romans 8
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 4
6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Needs to be more nuanced than that or we would have to create a doctrine wherein Christians become God based on what Paul said.

Romans 8
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 4
6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

This isn't as complicated as you believe.

Only God is good. Only Jesus is Good. We are joint heirs in Eternal Life. We will be made sinless upon "Glorification", but that doesn't mean that we will be "gods". We will forever be THE BRIDE. He, ALONE, is the BRIDEGROOM. All of the Patriarchy stuff in scripture is about that, not church actions or any of the like. Christ, Alone, will be King... forever and ever... AMEN. :D