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[GodsGrace]

They don't all do that?

No. I attended two churches.
One was very biblically based and followed the bible religiosly. (pardon the pun).
One was not very biblical and did make many doctrines and did say that if you didn't follow them you'd end up in this Lake of Fire place.

 

[stovebolts]

A question which will receive no answer.
..

And that's about the wisest answer possible.

I concur

 

[Runner]

Pondering that hard could give you a big headache.
I wouldn't recommend it.

Just a comment or two:

1. Yes. So why did He create us anyway? And why did Eve bite that fruit if she didn't even have the sin nature yet?

2. Really, did you know that the first Christian theologians were baffled by this? I think I mentioned this in another thread (or this one) about why Catholic Confession exists.
They thought, at the beginning, that persons would just stop sinning.

I think it's VERY difficult to arrive at a tidy connect-the-dots explanation within the framework of Satan being a fallen angel who is literally at war with God and who roams the globe in opposition to everything God is trying to achieve. Pondering THAT will, I find, give you a four-Aleve headache.

As I'm sure you know, Satan as understood by the Jews was a member in good standing of the heavenly court, more in the vein of the agitator we see in the Book of Job.

Here at the Runner School of Non-Dogmatic Theology for Prepubescent Toddlers, which has been condemned as heretical by everyone from the Pope to Joel Osteen and is not even allowed to buy time on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, we tend to believe the purpose of creation was to evolve beings who genuinely understood and appreciated God's qualities and who made a free-will choice to turn to Him rather than toward evil. For this to occur required a creation pretty much like the one we have - beings who were internally conflicted and surrounded by a world of immense challenge. If those who turned toward Him were instantly transformed, this would both (1) short-circuit the spiritual growth they are meant to achieve in this lifetime, and (2) be "coercive" in the sense that it would be a too-obvious demonstration of God's existence to those who have not yet turned to Him (along the lines of God placing billboards in the sky).

In other words, I tend to view Satan more in the vein of the Jewish understanding and evil as part and parcel of God's plan. But since God doesn't owe me a tidy explanation, which is precisely the point of the Book of Job, my view is non-dogmatic and doesn't dismiss the possibility than even the most rigid fundamentalist understanding might be correct. The only point I am dogmatic about is that I am not going to pretend to believe things that are impossible for me to believe, which includes the rigid fundamentalist understanding.

My belief is that we retain the sin nature, even though it's under submission, because evil is a part of everything and it cannot be eliminated.

Back in 1973, when I was in seminary, I wrote a 75-page paper on that very theme. My idea was that, just as a triangle by definition has three sides (even God cannot make a four-sided triangle, at least in Euclidean geometry), evil is somehow inherent to a material creation. I'm sure I'd be embarrassed if I read it now, but I thought it was clever at the time.

 

[stovebolts]

I think it's VERY difficult to arrive at a tidy connect-the-dots explanation within the framework of Satan being a fallen angel who is literally at war with God and who roams the globe in opposition to everything God is trying to achieve. Pondering THAT will, I find, give you a four-Aleve headache.

As I'm sure you know, Satan as understood by the Jews was a member in good standing of the heavenly court, more in the vein of the agitator we see in the Book of Job.

Here at the Runner School of Non-Dogmatic Theology for Prepubescent Toddlers, which has been condemned as heretical by everyone from the Pope to Joel Osteen and is not even allowed to buy time on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, we tend to believe the purpose of creation was to evolve beings who genuinely understood and appreciated God's qualities and who made a free-will choice to turn to Him rather than toward evil. For this to occur required a creation pretty much like the one we have - beings who were internally conflicted and surrounded by a world of immense challenge. If those who turned toward Him were instantly transformed, this would both (1) short-circuit the spiritual growth they are meant to achieve in this lifetime, and (2) be "coercive" in the sense that it would be a too-obvious demonstration of God's existence to those who have not yet turned to Him (along the lines of God placing billboards in the sky).

In other words, I tend to view Satan more in the vein of the Jewish understanding and evil as part and parcel of God's plan. But since God doesn't owe me a tidy explanation, which is precisely the point of the Book of Job, my view is non-dogmatic and doesn't dismiss the possibility than even the most rigid fundamentalist understanding might be correct. The only point I am dogmatic about is that I am not going to pretend to believe things that are impossible for me to believe, which includes the rigid fundamentalist understanding.



Back in 1973, when I was in seminary, I wrote a 75-page paper on that very theme. My idea was that, just as a triangle by definition has three sides (even God cannot make a four-sided triangle, at least in Euclidean geometry), evil is somehow inherent to a material creation. I'm sure I'd be embarrassed if I read it now, but I thought it was clever at the time.

Ha, what a refreshing hoot to read. Lol, I like your style.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it's VERY difficult to arrive at a tidy connect-the-dots explanation within the framework of Satan being a fallen angel who is literally at war with God and who roams the globe in opposition to everything God is trying to achieve. Pondering THAT will, I find, give you a four-Aleve headache.

As I'm sure you know, Satan as understood by the Jews was a member in good standing of the heavenly court, more in the vein of the agitator we see in the Book of Job.

Here at the Runner School of Non-Dogmatic Theology for Prepubescent Toddlers, which has been condemned as heretical by everyone from the Pope to Joel Osteen and is not even allowed to buy time on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, we tend to believe the purpose of creation was to evolve beings who genuinely understood and appreciated God's qualities and who made a free-will choice to turn to Him rather than toward evil. For this to occur required a creation pretty much like the one we have - beings who were internally conflicted and surrounded by a world of immense challenge. If those who turned toward Him were instantly transformed, this would both (1) short-circuit the spiritual growth they are meant to achieve in this lifetime, and (2) be "coercive" in the sense that it would be a too-obvious demonstration of God's existence to those who have not yet turned to Him (along the lines of God placing billboards in the sky).

In other words, I tend to view Satan more in the vein of the Jewish understanding and evil as part and parcel of God's plan. But since God doesn't owe me a tidy explanation, which is precisely the point of the Book of Job, my view is non-dogmatic and doesn't dismiss the possibility than even the most rigid fundamentalist understanding might be correct. The only point I am dogmatic about is that I am not going to pretend to believe things that are impossible for me to believe, which includes the rigid fundamentalist understanding.

Back in 1973, when I was in seminary, I wrote a 75-page paper on that very theme. My idea was that, just as a triangle by definition has three sides (even God cannot make a four-sided triangle, at least in Euclidean geometry), evil is somehow inherent to a material creation. I'm sure I'd be embarrassed if I read it now, but I thought it was clever at the time.

I read this before having dinner and a thought came to mind.
Just thinking out loud here.

Having been in seminary, and maybe that doesn't even matter, you and all Christians know that the big problem in Christianity is evil.
If God is onmipotent and all-good, how could evil exist?
Is He evil?
Or is He not omnipotent?
It would seem from His works of creation that He must be omnipotent or He wouldn't be God.
Jesus taught that He's all-good and we believe what Jesus said.
So, the problem continues.

Those that say that God created evil, as in Isaiah, then must believe He is not all-good and a loving God. I've thought about dualism, but that seems to be incorrect too.

So sometimes I liken us to a pet we may have. As if we were God's pet.
I'm told that God causes us to suffer so we could appreciate when we're well,,,or to teach us something.

My answer: Would I send my cat out in a storm to teach him about the cold and to teach him a good lesson to stay indoors when it's cold? No. I love him, so I'd try to protect him.

This is the thought I had...:
What if I found my pet in a pound..
He was not fed properly, mistreated, in a dirty cage, etc.
I bring the pet home. He still gets sick, he still might have an encounter with another animal every now and then...
But, overall, I love him and feed him and keep him warm and as safe as POSSIBLE.

Maybe God saved us from a really bad place?
And now it's up to us to show our love and gratitude to Him?

Sounds silly, but I never thought of it this way before.
Maybe we are truly satan's children before salvation and God literally saved us from him?
(to give us the chance to be saved).

Who can know???!

Thoughts?

P.S.
From the Wondering School of Non-Dogmatic Theology for Prepubescent Toddlers...
and adults that act as such...LOL

 

[stovebolts]

In Jewish theology, evil is non created, just as darkness is non created.
In essence, darkness is the absence of light and evil is the absence of good.

In Isaiah, God creates evil through his creative absence. Theologically, God is present in his absence which is represented in the idea of exile.

Using the idea of light to expose evil, sin is when we fail to do the good we could have done. Evil is when we fail to take action to make a positive difference. By example, evil is what fills the void when you see somebody hungry, have the means to feed them, yet fail to create justice by feeding them. The evil is not in their hunger, but rather in the callousness of those who refuse to see or help.

In summary, darkness is the absence of light and evil is the absence of good.

Shalom

 

[stovebolts]

Btw wondering
Ezekiel 18 describes the story you told of our fallen state, and God who loved us enough to save us.... and we still rebelled, yet he loved us more.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Jewish theology, evil is non created, just as darkness is non created.
In essence, darkness is the absence of light and evil is the absence of good.

In Isaiah, God creates evil through his creative absence. Theologically, God is present in his absence which is represented in the idea of exile.

Using the idea of light to expose evil, sin is when we fail to do the good we could have done. Evil is when we fail to take action to make a positive difference. By example, evil is what fills the void when you see somebody hungry, have the means to feed them, yet fail to create justice by feeding them. The evil is not in their hunger, but rather in the callousness of those who refuse to see or help.

In summary, darkness is the absence of light and evil is the absence of good.

Shalom

I think we've discussed this...?

I'd be willing to accept this except for nature.
Nature cannot decide between good and evil.
It just is.
And yet even nature is affected by evil.
And what about disease? Isn't that an evil at work?
That also is not our decision.

I can't find an explanation but I don't think about it except
when it comes up here or in a discussion.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think it's VERY difficult to arrive at a tidy connect-the-dots explanation within the framework of Satan being a fallen angel who is literally at war with God and who roams the globe in opposition to everything God is trying to achieve. Pondering THAT will, I find, give you a four-Aleve headache.

As I'm sure you know, Satan as understood by the Jews was a member in good standing of the heavenly court, more in the vein of the agitator we see in the Book of Job.

Here at the Runner School of Non-Dogmatic Theology for Prepubescent Toddlers, which has been condemned as heretical by everyone from the Pope to Joel Osteen and is not even allowed to buy time on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, we tend to believe the purpose of creation was to evolve beings who genuinely understood and appreciated God's qualities and who made a free-will choice to turn to Him rather than toward evil. For this to occur required a creation pretty much like the one we have - beings who were internally conflicted and surrounded by a world of immense challenge. If those who turned toward Him were instantly transformed, this would both (1) short-circuit the spiritual growth they are meant to achieve in this lifetime, and (2) be "coercive" in the sense that it would be a too-obvious demonstration of God's existence to those who have not yet turned to Him (along the lines of God placing billboards in the sky).

In other words, I tend to view Satan more in the vein of the Jewish understanding and evil as part and parcel of God's plan. But since God doesn't owe me a tidy explanation, which is precisely the point of the Book of Job, my view is non-dogmatic and doesn't dismiss the possibility than even the most rigid fundamentalist understanding might be correct. The only point I am dogmatic about is that I am not going to pretend to believe things that are impossible for me to believe, which includes the rigid fundamentalist understanding.



Back in 1973, when I was in seminary, I wrote a 75-page paper on that very theme. My idea was that, just as a triangle by definition has three sides (even God cannot make a four-sided triangle, at least in Euclidean geometry), evil is somehow inherent to a material creation. I'm sure I'd be embarrassed if I read it now, but I thought it was clever at the time.

I have no idea if God even gave Lucifer/Satan his name or is it just man that named him, anyway Satan was created perfect in all his ways and had much favor in God. This is why he was set as an anointed cherub over the garden of Eden before the creation of Adam. It was his own pride that caused his fall as God never had evil in any of His plans, Ezekiel 28:11-19. Satan has rebelled ever since and will continue to do so until he is thrown into the lake of fire. The evil in the world is directly from rebellion, not from any plan of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

I read this before having dinner and a thought came to mind.
Just thinking out loud here.

Having been in seminary, and maybe that doesn't even matter, you and all Christians know that the big problem in Christianity is evil.
If God is onmipotent and all-good, how could evil exist?
Is He evil?
Or is He not omnipotent?
It would seem from His works of creation that He must be omnipotent or He wouldn't be God.
Jesus taught that He's all-good and we believe what Jesus said.
So, the problem continues.

Those that say that God created evil, as in Isaiah, then must believe He is not all-good and a loving God. I've thought about dualism, but that seems to be incorrect too.

So sometimes I liken us to a pet we may have. As if we were God's pet.
I'm told that God causes us to suffer so we could appreciate when we're well,,,or to teach us something.

My answer: Would I send my cat out in a storm to teach him about the cold and to teach him a good lesson to stay indoors when it's cold? No. I love him, so I'd try to protect him.

This is the thought I had...:
What if I found my pet in a pound..
He was not fed properly, mistreated, in a dirty cage, etc.
I bring the pet home. He still gets sick, he still might have an encounter with another animal every now and then...
But, overall, I love him and feed him and keep him warm and as safe as POSSIBLE.

Maybe God saved us from a really bad place?
And now it's up to us to show our love and gratitude to Him?

Sounds silly, but I never thought of it this way before.
Maybe we are truly satan's children before salvation and God literally saved us from him?
(to give us the chance to be saved).

Who can know???!

Thoughts?

P.S.
From the Wondering School of Non-Dogmatic Theology for Prepubescent Toddlers...
and adults that act as such...LOL

Like Satan, we were all created in the image of God so that would make us sinless at first, but then like Satan we have choose to walk away from God in a fallen state. After Satan's fall evil was introduced into the world as it found its way to Cain who made a choice. God gave laws to follow, but man again chose to disobey. The law had no saving provisions within it as only faith would be the answer. So faith came into the world as a light unto darkness and yet man makes their choice.

 

[stovebolts]

I think we've discussed this...?

I'd be willing to accept this except for nature.
Nature cannot decide between good and evil.
It just is.
And yet even nature is affected by evil.
And what about disease? Isn't that an evil at work?
That also is not our decision.

I can't find an explanation but I don't think about it except
when it comes up here or in a discussion.

That's very interesting to ponder.
Is a disease an Evil? Or is it simply considered an Evil?
In my mind, hunger is not evil. It's simply hunger. What's evil is when one allows suffering to continue when they have the wherewithal to make a difference, yet choose to turn a blind eye.

Cancer isn't evil. But when we have the means to treat it, but we don't, the suffering continues.

Justice is about making things right when we can and where we ignore justice, evil results. If a disease is causing suffering, and we fail to provide a service for those less fortunate, evil is the result.

In Leviticus 23, we see for the second time that the corners of ones field are to remain unharvested so that justice will prevail for those less fortunate. It's not evil to harvest the corners. What's evil is when you fail to provide for those in need.

 

[GodsGrace]

Like Satan, we were all created in the image of God so that would make us sinless at first, but then like Satan we have choose to walk away from God in a fallen state. After Satan's fall evil was introduced into the world as it found its way to Cain who made a choice. God gave laws to follow, but man again chose to disobey. The law had no saving provisions within it as only faith would be the answer. So faith came into the world as a light unto darkness and yet man makes their choice.

Too easy FHG.
Why accept an easy answer!
Why did Satan fall?
He was perfectly made by God...

 

[stovebolts]

Like Satan, we were all created in the image of God so that would make us sinless at first, but then like Satan we have choose to walk away from God in a fallen state. After Satan's fall evil was introduced into the world as it found its way to Cain who made a choice. God gave laws to follow, but man again chose to disobey. The law had no saving provisions within it as only faith would be the answer. So faith came into the world as a light unto darkness and yet man makes their choice.

The way I understand Satan, is that he is an Angel. Angels were not created in the image of God and do not possess free will.
We see Satan doing the bidding of God in the book of Job. If Satan fell as some theologies report, then how is he in the presence of God having a conversation accusing Job?
The way I understand it, and it's ok to disagree, is that Satan was created as the accusor. It's his job.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's very interesting to ponder.
Is a disease an Evil? Or is it simply considered an Evil?
In my mind, hunger is not evil. It's simply hunger. What's evil is when one allows suffering to continue when they have the wherewithal to make a difference, yet choose to turn a blind eye.

Cancer isn't evil. But when we have the means to treat it, but we don't, the suffering continues.

Justice is about making things right when we can and where we ignore justice, evil results. If a disease is causing suffering, and we fail to provide a service for those less fortunate, evil is the result.

In Leviticus 23, we see for the second time that the corners of ones field are to remain unharvested so that justice will prevail for those less fortunate. It's not evil to harvest the corners. What's evil is when you fail to provide for those in need.

The only solution I've been able to accept is that all good comes from God and all evil comes from Satan.
Then we have the problem of why God allows it.

Your solution works well if you don't believe Satan as a real being.
Then we'd be able to say that evil is the absence of good.
Light can overcome the dark, but the dark cannot overcome light.
(As you believe)

Hunger cannot be caused by God so it's cause comes from elsewhere...
If the person is fed, it becomes God at work through someone.
But it's evil in its nature, nonetheless.

I'm happy for those who have a solution.

 

[for_his_glory]

Too easy FHG.
Why accept an easy answer!
Why did Satan fall?
He was perfectly made by God...

Some people (not you sis) just can not accept the easy answer as they like to through unnecessary mumbo jumbo into the mix. Satan fell because of his own conceit.

 

[GodsGrace]

The way I understand Satan, is that he is an Angel. Angels were not created in the image of God and do not possess free will.
We see Satan doing the bidding of God in the book of Job. If Satan fell as some theologies report, then how is he in the presence of God having a conversation accusing Job?
The way I understand it, and it's ok to disagree, is that Satan was created as the accusor. It's his job.

Why do we need an accusor?
So we could choose??

 

[GodsGrace]

Some people (not you sis) just can not accept the easy answer as they like to through unnecessary mumbo jumbo into the mix. Satan fell because of his own conceit.

Don't get upset with me...
Where did his conceit come from?
You see..
We could go on and on...
There's really no end to this.

 

[jasonc]

in the jewish thought, Ha satan, is not a personal name, the serpent is separate from the being we call satan and that serpent circles gan eden tempting those that are there after escaping sheol via one of those gates, or by being a tsaddik.

I definitely don't buy that one.

sheol then as a purgatory, I see, to teach one to be a tsaddik. most Jewish, but not some much supportable with the brit chadosh. romans 3 kills that.

 

[jasonc]

The way I understand Satan, is that he is an Angel. Angels were not created in the image of God and do not possess free will.
We see Satan doing the bidding of God in the book of Job. If Satan fell as some theologies report, then how is he in the presence of God having a conversation accusing Job?
The way I understand it, and it's ok to disagree, is that Satan was created as the accusor. It's his job.

Isiah 28, Ezekiel 14 describe how Lucifer fell and why.

 

[stovebolts]

Why do we need an accusor?
So we could choose??

Good question. Why do we need freewill? Why do we need air to breath? Why do I have 5 fingers? I don't really know why, but I do know they all exist and I interact with them all.