Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[Grubal Muruch]

It isn't a doctrine of men to read the Bible and see who Jesus is speaking to, especially when you claim every "chosen" is referring to something it isn't. The Apostles are a very special "chosen" and you don't seem to want to hear that. The Apostles bear witness because they were with Jesus "from the beginning". From the foundation of the church.

Ephesians 2:19-20 -Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 3:5 - Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

John 6:70 - Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 13:18 - I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:27 - And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Luke 6:13 - And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Acts 1:2 - Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 2:43 - And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Acts 4:33 - And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.



Jesus was speaking to His chosen Apostles directly....thus the references to the "chosen" are to them. Here He is praying for the Apostles. We know this because the part in red is speaking of those who believe through the testimony of the Apostles.


I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that we aren't to take all of Jesus's words as our own. But, the "chosen" ones mentioned in these verses are the Apostles. That is who He was speaking to...they are the foundation upon which the church is built. This is why I say we must always read verses in their context so that we avoid making doctrinal errors.



I can't do anything about how you read it, Reba. I only know I have no doctrine except what's written in the Word of God. I'm sorry you feel the need to constantly be referring to my "doctrine", as if I were a follower of man instead of God.

The cross is what lifts Jesus up for all the world to see....He draws all men unto Himself.
John 12:31-33 - "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

In CONTEXT, this is what John 6 says...read verse 40 and then read 44. When Jesus is lifted up by the Gospel message they are drawn by God's Word to look upon Him and believe. Just as the Serpent was lifted up in the wilderness and they needed to look upon it to live.



Now, I'm here on this forum to share my understanding of the Word of God. If that upsets you, I'm sorry. You are free to believe whatever you like, and it won't bother me in the least. I do wish you wouldn't get so defensive every time I post, however. You don't need to accuse me of being diametrically opposed to the Scripture simply because I don't read it the way you do.

Glory, permit me to add to the truth you have proclaimed here in your post...We, as Christians are to, "rightly divide the word of truth." Jesus was speaking "mainly" to the "House of Israel" in the Gospels, that must not be denied...Sometimes the Scriptures are speaking to the "House of Israel" other times to the "gentiles" and yet other times to all...We must be able to divide and "differentiate" who is being spoken to at any given time...Water baptism was meant for the "House of Israel" and not for the "gentiles." However, "gentiles" are not excluded from the act, if they so desire (as an outward showing of an inward working of the Spirit)

The baptism that is meant for salvation is, the, " Baptism by the Holy Spirit" whereby we as "true believers" become, "born again" as Christ proclaimed...John 3:7 states, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." In fact, no one will enter "eternal life" without being "born again" Jesus said that...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

There isn't one verse in all of scripture that says man walks on two legs, either, but that's because everyone knows it's true. However, there are many scriptures that say clearly man has a free will. Here's just a sampling.


Judges 5:2 - Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

1 Chronicles 29:14 - But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

1 Chronicles 29:17 - I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

2 Chronicles 17:16 - And next him was Amasiah the son of Zichri, who willingly offered himself unto the LORD; and with him two hundred thousand mighty men of valour.

Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Hosea 5:11 - Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.

1 Corinthians 9:17 - For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Philemon 1:14 - But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

1 Peter 5:2 - Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

We even see those who are "willingly..ignorant".

2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Then, of course, we see God expects us to choose....He wouldn't expect something we are unable to do.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Glory, just to add to the truths you've already proclaimed, may I add, free will is a "constant" presence throughout the Old and New Testaments...To deny this truth is "inexplicable." The Scriptures have an "extremely" healthy amount of proof that free will not only exists, but is absolutely necessary in order to come to a "saving knowledge" of Christ...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Actually, I have answered these...more than once. The verses in John 15, Jesus is speaking to the twelve Apostles. He did choose all of them, as you will recall.



I've addressed these as well. Paul is speaking of the church, the body of Christ. "Chosen us IN HIM". Speaking of the "whosoever" comes by faith IN JESUS. These are not specific individuals, but the body...those who comprise the Temple of the LIVING GOD. Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."



Again, God chose those who choose the Son...those who believe in Him. It isn't like God would choose those who don't believe in Him. As Israel was the chosen nation, the church (body of Christ) is the chosen nation. As Israel was a peculiar people, the believers (church...body of Christ) are a peculiar people.

God commands all men everywhere to repent....they are the "many called." Those who do repent and trust in Jesus are the chosen...they are the "few chosen."



I'm sure the Scripture you posted will get an Amen, but what you're trying to prove by posting them shouldn't. God doesn't choose anyone unless they've chosen the Son. He is the Elect One of God and only those who are IN Christ are the elect, and only because they are IN HIM.

AMEN to what Glory said...

 

[Jam]

true submission requires a willing heart.

But this does not preclude the possibility that "a willing heart" is caused to be willing by prior and external factors.

However, there are many scriptures that say clearly man has a free will. Here's just a sampling.


Judges 5:2 - Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

1 Chronicles 29:14 - But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

1 Chronicles 29:17 - I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

2 Chronicles 17:16 - And next him was Amasiah the son of Zichri, who willingly offered himself unto the LORD; and with him two hundred thousand mighty men of valour.

Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Hosea 5:11 - Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.

1 Corinthians 9:17 - For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Philemon 1:14 - But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

1 Peter 5:2 - Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

We even see those who are "willingly..ignorant".

2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Then, of course, we see God expects us to choose....He wouldn't expect something we are unable to do.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Again, willingless and choice are simply irrelevant. No one here is denying that they exist, and so it is futile to post examples of them. Choices are ultimately caused by things outside of our control necessarily.

 

[reba]

Now, I'm here on this forum to share my understanding of the Word of God. If that upsets you, I'm sorry. You are free to believe whatever you like, and it won't bother me in the least. I do wish you wouldn't get so defensive every time I post, however. You don't need to accuse me of being diametrically opposed to the Scripture simply because I don't read it the way you do.

Dayz you accuse others of believing a doctrine of man, just as you have written above. You read the scriptures the way you do i read them as i do. I do not think it defensive to post scripture and state our thoughts.

 

[smaller]

Dayz you accuse others of believing a doctrine of man, just as you have written above. You read the scriptures the way you do i read them as i do. I do not think it defensive to post scripture and state our thoughts.

I've noticed that freewill seems to provide the holders the ability to read other people's emotions, particularly when positions weaken.

Funny how that works?

s

 

[smaller]

The "I will cause" clauses.

If a reader reads many of these statements of Gods 'causation' and man 'reacts' to same, how is that 'freewill?'

Jeremiah 19:9
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

Can anyone with a freewill sane mind do such a thing?

Now, a reader can certainly discount The Cause. But I would submit that The Cause is quite clear and unavoidable.

If God says "I Will Cause" that conclusion is unavoidable by any will, period.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

There isn't one verse in all of scripture that says man walks on two legs, either, but that's because everyone knows it's true. However, there are many scriptures that say clearly man has a free will. Here's just a sampling.


Judges 5:2 - Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

1 Chronicles 29:14 - But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

1 Chronicles 29:17 - I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

2 Chronicles 17:16 - And next him was Amasiah the son of Zichri, who willingly offered himself unto the LORD; and with him two hundred thousand mighty men of valour.

Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Hosea 5:11 - Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.

1 Corinthians 9:17 - For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Philemon 1:14 - But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

1 Peter 5:2 - Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

We even see those who are "willingly..ignorant".

2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Then, of course, we see God expects us to choose....He wouldn't expect something we are unable to do.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Glorydaz, I see all of these scriptures you have caringly provided describe a "will"; the ability to choose, a volition, a voluntary action. Regarding this you have made your point well and you are correct. I would beg your patience with me however. For I don't believe anybody here is contesting with you that men don't choose or have a will. We all willingly admit we all have wills. We are with you on that.

In all honesty and forthrightness it is a "free" will we are trying to discuss, as in a will "free" to choose without being determined by any compulsions, restraints, pre-existing causes, or divine intervention, etc... And this is pertaining to moral and immoral behavior, not to moving a toe or a finger, but spiritual motivators.

To be clear, we are exploring why one man would get pleasure in torturing others while another would get pleasure in seeing others prosper. Consequently we are examining whether men simply choose these paths with a "free" will or whether the presence and absence of both Love and Truth, determines the motives of our choices. For me personally, I am saying that God is Love and that the Spirit of Christ is what makes men not sin.

Respectfully, I would ask you if you would be willing to try to understand the differences between a will and a freewill for the sake of our mutual edification. God is not the author of confusion. Only our common enemy would seek to disrupt any enlightenment by muddying the waters. Let's not let him move us like that. After all that's what we are discussing and why. So that we see how Satan manipulated us and causes us to hurt and hate one another, and how God's Light changes us on the inside. We are seeking to wash the inside of the cup.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory, permit me to add to the truth you have proclaimed here in your post...We, as Christians are to, "rightly divide the word of truth." Jesus was speaking "mainly" to the "House of Israel" in the Gospels, that must not be denied...Sometimes the Scriptures are speaking to the "House of Israel" other times to the "gentiles" and yet other times to all...We must be able to divide and "differentiate" who is being spoken to at any given time...Water baptism was meant for the "House of Israel" and not for the "gentiles." However, "gentiles" are not excluded from the act, if they so desire (as an outward showing of an inward working of the Spirit)

The baptism that is meant for salvation is, the, " Baptism by the Holy Spirit" whereby we as "true believers" become, "born again" as Christ proclaimed...John 3:7 states, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." In fact, no one will enter "eternal life" without being "born again" Jesus said that...

Amen, brother. The Jews seek after a sign, and the baptism of repentance that John preached was a sign for the Jews that they were partakers of the New Covenant of Grace. This is why you see it preached so much in the gospels. The twelve were told not to go to the gentiles for a reason. Their message was for the Jews. It was Paul who was sent to the gentiles to preach the gospel of grace. The baptism of the Holy Spirit given to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is the baptism INTO Christ done by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is the One Baptism that saves because the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory, just to add to the truths you've already proclaimed, may I add, free will is a "constant" presence throughout the Old and New Testaments...To deny this truth is "inexplicable." The Scriptures have an "extremely" healthy amount of proof that free will not only exists, but is absolutely necessary in order to come to a "saving knowledge" of Christ...

I keep posting this because it speaks so clearly to man having a freewill. Jesus, Himself, told us to look what Moses did in the wilderness...how he must be lifted up: "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. Why do people try so hard to discount this scripture as being Old Testament when Jesus says to look at what happened here?

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

"Everyone that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live." It required the people to LOOK. They had to make the decision to look and live. If they didn't they died. Sin is the poison that has bitten mankind, and we must look upon Jesus Christ to not "perish." God could have just chosen some to live, but He didn't. It's man's responsibility to act upon and put faith in the provision God has provided.

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

 

[glorydaz]

But this does not preclude the possibility that "a willing heart" is caused to be willing by prior and external factors.



Again, willingless and choice are simply irrelevant. No one here is denying that they exist, and so it is futile to post examples of them. Choices are ultimately caused by things outside of our control necessarily.

I'll give you that. What might those external factors be? I submit those factors are clearly seen by man. The invisible things being understood by all of God's creation....even His eternal power and Godhead. Therefore, God says man is without excuse.

Romans 1:19-20 - "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

We have the moral law of God written in our hearts (conscience).

Romans 2:14-15 - "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )"

Even the ungodly see the grace of God, the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering. When a child is at death's door, men call upon God. When a hurricane ravages the land, men fall on their knees when they are spared. Mankind sees God's mighty hand in the whole universe He has created. They just don't know how to reach God until they hear the Gospel message which is the Power of God unto salvation.

Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Our heart becomes "willing" as God engineers our circumstances such that we reach out toward Him for Mercy. He draws us to Him in ways we can't even imagine...therefore, man is without excuse.

 

[glorydaz]

Dayz you accuse others of believing a doctrine of man, just as you have written above. You read the scriptures the way you do i read them as i do. I do not think it defensive to post scripture and state our thoughts.

You're right. The question becomes do we post scripture that is used to support some doctrine of man without attempting to see how those verses actually read in context. Or do we just post them because they are used all the time by those who hold a particular doctrine. I see the same verses used over and over again and they simply do not read the same when the verses that surround them are taken into consideration. If they are used in such a way that other verses contradict them, then man's understanding is at fault somewhere...not the Word itself.

 

[glorydaz]

The "I will cause" clauses.

If a reader reads many of these statements of Gods 'causation' and man 'reacts' to same, how is that 'freewill?'

Jeremiah 19:9
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

Can anyone with a freewill sane mind do such a thing?

Now, a reader can certainly discount The Cause. But I would submit that The Cause is quite clear and unavoidable.

If God says "I Will Cause" that conclusion is unavoidable by any will, period.

enjoy!

s

Yes, men do indeed do such things when they're in dire straits. Look at the Donner party.

Israel was experiencing God's wrath, and this was literally fulfilled when Jerusalem was besieged by the Romans.

This example has nothing to do with whether man has a free will or not.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz, I see all of these scriptures you have caringly provided describe a "will"; the ability to choose, a volition, a voluntary action. Regarding this you have made your point well and you are correct. I would beg your patience with me however. For I don't believe anybody here is contesting with you that men don't choose or have a will. We all willingly admit we all have wills. We are with you on that.

In all honesty and forthrightness it is a "free" will we are trying to discuss, as in a will "free" to choose without being determined by any compulsions, restraints, pre-existing causes, or divine intervention, etc... And this is pertaining to moral and immoral behavior, not to moving a toe or a finger, but spiritual motivators.

To be clear, we are exploring why one man would get pleasure in torturing others while another would get pleasure in seeing others prosper. Consequently we are examining whether men simply choose these paths with a "free" will or whether the presence and absence of both Love and Truth, determines the motives of our choices. For me personally, I am saying that God is Love and that the Spirit of Christ is what makes men not sin.

Respectfully, I would ask you if you would be willing to try to understand the differences between a will and a freewill for the sake of our mutual edification. God is not the author of confusion. Only our common enemy would seek to disrupt any enlightenment by muddying the waters. Let's not let him move us like that. After all that's what we are discussing and why. So that we see how Satan manipulated us and causes us to hurt and hate one another, and how God's Light changes us on the inside. We are seeking to wash the inside of the cup.

You feel the verses I posted are "muddying" the waters? I don't believe they are. They aren't just saying "willingly" because it sounds better that way. People actually do freely offer themselves to God. They do, indeed, freely seek to know our Holy God. Down through the ages, men have attempted to worship God even when they made graven images of Him and bowed before them. God has instilled in man a desire to know Him. Men freely try to obey their conscience. They can feel in their heart that it's wrong to hurt others. They know they shouldn't take something that doesn't belong to them. Even the ungodly can be true to the conscience God has given them.

The reason God says man is without excuse, is because he IS without excuse. I see an attempt to make satan an excuse, when God says we have NONE. I prefer to believe God rather than give satan greater credit than he's due. Satan can distract man from seeking God because he provides us with so many worldly temptations, but that's all he can do....distract us. God is greater than satan. His powers to draw us overwhelm satan's powers to distract us else none would ever look unto the light and be saved.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You're right. The question becomes do we post scripture that is used to support some doctrine of man without attempting to see how those verses actually read in context. Or do we just post them because they are used all the time by those who hold a particular doctrine. I see the same verses used over and over again and they simply do not read the same when the verses that surround them are taken into consideration. If they are used in such a way that other verses contradict them, then man's understanding is at fault somewhere...not the Word itself.

A GIGANTIC AMEN!!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes, men do indeed do such things when they're in dire straits. Look at the Donner party.

Israel was experiencing God's wrath, and this was literally fulfilled when Jerusalem was besieged by the Romans.

This example has nothing to do with whether man has a free will or not.

Indeed not!!! Apples and oranges, no connection...

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;595406]You feel the verses I posted are "muddying" the waters? I don't believe they are.

Of course I don't believe the scriptures you posted are muddying the waters. That thought that would think that of me is not of God, but of Satan trying to divide us.

They aren't just saying "willingly" because it sounds better that way.

Another sarcastic remark, also not of God.

People actually do freely offer themselves to God.

No they don't. God owns everything, He always has.

They do, indeed, freely seek to know our Holy God.

Okay, if this is true, tell me why, and you will see why we don't freely seek Him. WE NEED HIM TO SURVIVE.

Down through the ages, men have attempted to worship God even when they made graven images of Him and bowed before them. God has instilled in man a desire to know Him. Men freely try to obey their conscience. They can feel in their heart that it's wrong to hurt others. They know they shouldn't take something that doesn't belong to them. Even the ungodly can be true to the conscience God has given them.

Glorydaz, your words here are chalk full of incongruencies. How can a man freely desire to know God when God has instilled in man a desire to know Him? How can men freely try to obey their conscience when their conscience torments them with the fear of God and with sorrowhul regret? Men wouldn't know that it's wrong to hurt others without Love.

The reason God says man is without excuse, is because he IS without excuse. I see an attempt to make satan an excuse, when God says we have NONE.

God is saying there is no excuse for not acknowledging God and all that the term entails. Your claim that you see an attempt to make Satan an excuse for not acknowledging God carries no weight with me. Satan works to denigrate the image of God both in Heaven and on Earth. On Earth He portrays God to man as a corrupt image, and in Heaven he portrays man as a corrupt image. He is playing both sides against the middle. Consequently, the thought you have that everybody is using Satan to excuse their actions is Satan spinning the Truth so as to condemn those who would excuse and forgive others transgressions against them. And also in my thoughts, he spins the Truth to believe you are using freewill as an excuse to condemn others. He uses semantics.

I prefer to believe God rather than give satan greater credit than he's due.

Good, so do I with the humility of acknowledging that I was duped just like everyone else, and that without the revelation of Christ by the grace and mercy of God, I would still be duped. How valuable is the blood of Christ? Well that's what it took to release us from the bondage of the devil.

Satan can distract man from seeking God because he provides us with so many worldly temptations, but that's all he can do....distract us. God is greater than satan. His powers to draw us overwhelm satan's powers to distract us else none would ever look unto the light and be saved.

I just said that.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You feel the verses I posted are "muddying" the waters? I don't believe they are. They aren't just saying "willingly" because it sounds better that way. People actually do freely offer themselves to God. They do, indeed, freely seek to know our Holy God. Down through the ages, men have attempted to worship God even when they made graven images of Him and bowed before them. God has instilled in man a desire to know Him. Men freely try to obey their conscience. They can feel in their heart that it's wrong to hurt others. They know they shouldn't take something that doesn't belong to them. Even the ungodly can be true to the conscience God has given them.

The reason God says man is without excuse, is because he IS without excuse. I see an attempt to make satan an excuse, when God says we have NONE. I prefer to believe God rather than give satan greater credit than he's due. Satan can distract man from seeking God because he provides us with so many worldly temptations, but that's all he can do....distract us. God is greater than satan. His powers to draw us overwhelm satan's powers to distract us else none would ever look unto the light and be saved.

Glory, someone in this thread referenced Jeremiah...As we read Jeremiah we see how God is "ever angry" at the "chosen" because they were continuing to worship and burn incense to the "queen of heaven" and other "idols." They would not "repent" and return to God...Therefore, God put forth "serious impending judgment" that lasted "seventy year's." The "House of Israel" had a "choice" to give up their "idol worship" but, stubbornly choose to follow their idols...Jeremiah is a good example of "free will choice," and the hazards of not choosing correctly...

Now some might say, "it was God's will for the "House of Israel" to worship their idols instead of turning to the true God. So God could turn around and "show forth, His judgement or some such "illogical reasoning/nonsense"

...

 

[smaller]

God giving Nebuchadnezzer the mind of a beast could not have been changed by him regardless of his 'freewill.'

God changed his will to that of a BEAST and there he remained until God changed him again and put him in his right mind. That right mind came when he acknowledged this fact:

Daniel 4:25
That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

No supposed 'freewill' agent usurps the fact.

s

 

[childeye]

God giving Nebuchadnezzer the mind of a beast could not have been changed by him regardless of his 'freewill.'

God changed his will to that of a BEAST and there he remained until God changed him again and put him in his right mind. That right mind came when he acknowledged this fact:

Daniel 4:25
That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

No supposed 'freewill' agent usurps the fact.

s

Indeed the verse that says that men have no excuse per Romans 1 might just as well be applied as there is no excuse for thinking you have a freewill. Otherwise righteousness is not a gift of God nor is wisdom. Having said that, I thank God for my conscience. But to clean the inside of the cup, one must deal with the subconscious.