Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[childeye]

And this points to what? Total depravity? No free-will?

I don't see either in that passage. I see the flesh, but not the devil. So, what's the point, again?

I already stated my point in the post along with scriptural support in Jesus' words. Ignatius to the Ephesians regarding men's need to be healed. As Jesus said to the Pharisees as they had need to hear it,"the sick need a doctor".
Also that men who are faithful will not choose to do those things that are not of the faith. As Jesus said to those who had need to hear it, "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit".

If you wish me to elaborate further, I will say this. That freewill defined as the ability to both freely obey God and deny God without any external wills either turning us away from God through deception or towards God through knowledge of Truth is not possible and is vanity, inexcusable. As we all have sinned and are in darkness, Jesus and perhaps Enoch and some others excluded, we are all in need of healing. Hence we are saved by mercy not by the merits of our ability to choose.

 

[glorydaz]

The question was for Grubal. However I will answer why crucifying the Christ is a sin. But first I would point out that it was the will of God to end all sacrifices for sin by showing us a better way, mercy and understanding.

It is a sin to crucify an innocent man because it is not loving others as I would want to be loved. I however, according to the same reasoning, am willing to sacrifice myself even as Christ did for the same reason,"for they know not what they do".

Uh, it was the will of God that Jesus would be the Spotless Lamb of God and would die for our sins.
Are you telling me you don't believe that to be the case?

And, really, Childeye, your claim to sacrifice yourself "even as Christ did" sounds a bit presumptuous, don't you think? If Jesus meant "they know not what they do" the way you're implying, then there was absolutely no reason for Him to have come to the cross.

Sin is DISOBEDIENCE to God's law (which is in the conscience or written down.) If man doesn't know what he's doing then God is a liar when He says man has NO EXCUSE.

So the question was, why didn't you resist the temptation to sin? And your answer was so that you could get your sin forgiven? I don't see how I can honestly regard that as a smart answer. I would then be led to ask, why would you presume you would be forgiven? Are you not taking the mercy of God for granted?

I was trying to show you how silly your premise is. God says man has NO EXCUSE...you say he does.
If Christ hadn't come, there would be no forgiveness of sin...thus my "smart answer".

I would presume I would be forgiven because I am well aware that Christ came to save sinners. Get it?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

God says differently...just after creating man....


We know from Heb. 6 that God cannot lie.

I submit that it's your understanding of Scripture and what it has "proven" "over and over" that leads you to think man does not have a free will. Be open and listen to the Word of God.

If we close our mind to truth, it cannot seep in, to bring about knowledge, and therefore, we will remain in ignorance...

 

[Jam]

Why would crucifying Christ be a sin? It was the will of God that Christ go to the cross.

If something ceases to be a sin simply because it was God's will that it came to be, then there is no sin: all that comes to be comes to be because it is God's will that it come to be!

 

[glorydaz]

I am of the same persuasion as 2Clements and so I felt compelled to post this to point out that I am saying the same things as some of the early church.

Regarding the no excuse part, I sincerely feel you are misapplying it. It is saying there is no excuse for vanity, not giving God the glory for any wisdom, Love, all that are called virtues. even the virtue to acknowledge what is virtuous.[/]

Please finish this sentence for me...

There is no excuse for vanity and not giving God the glory BECAUSE...........
Why? Why is there no excuse for that terrible behavior?

First of all wrath is revealed against those who...."hold the truth in unrighteousness;" (they know the truth but are still unrighteous)

Because...

THAT WHICH IS KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM

FOR GOD HAS SHOWN IT TO THEM

THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM (from the Creation)...

ARE CLEARLY SEEN

BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE (all of creation including man)

EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD

SO THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE

Then it goes on with another BECAUSE.....the reasons given above are why man is without excuse.

But we'll go on...."Because that, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD (see above), they glorified Him not as God," etc., etc., etc.,

You are giving the results as the reason. That's upside down, Childeye. No wonder you're confused.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;589550]Uh, it was the will of God that Jesus would be the Spotless Lamb of God and would die for our sins.
Are you telling me you don't believe that to be the case?

Of course I have already stated that Christ came as the unblemished lamb to put away all sacrifices for sin and show us a better way, through mercy and understanding. He would have no clout according to the laws of the Old Testament to defeat death and intercede for man if he was with sin. Having said that he died not only so sins would be forgiven but so that accusation be silenced.

And, really, Childeye, your claim to sacrifice yourself "even as Christ did" sounds a bit presumptuous, don't you think?

But this is required, that I bear my own cross. Hence Jesus says, if any man desire to follow him he must pick up his cross.

If Jesus meant "they know not what they do" the way you're implying, then there was absolutely no reason for Him to have come to the cross.

His reason for coming to the cross was to defeat the power of Satan, the god of this world. As I said before, Satan was cast out of heaven after the crucifixion which he perpetrated unwittingly to his own demise.

Sin is DISOBEDIENCE to God's law (which is in the conscience or written down.) If man doesn't know what he's doing then God is a liar when He says man has NO EXCUSE.

You are misapplying no excuse. Our vanity has no excuse. That is the ignorance that is the foundation of disobedience in man. We are all guilty of it and hence we have no grounds to blame others for their sin. We must forgive so we may be forgiven.

I was trying to show you how silly your premise is. God says man has NO EXCUSE...you say he does.

No, I'm not saying man is excusable for vanity, not knowing there is a God who is the source of all knowledge is not excusable. Hence men are fools of themselves not regarding God as that power which preserves them from being fools. That's why it is not wisdom to count yourself wise. Men are excusable for all actions made out of such iniquity if they excuse others whose iniquity falls upon them. Hence we receive according to our works. What measure we judge by so also are we judged. For if I truly believe men sin because they know not what they do I hold nothing against them and nothing is held against me.

If Christ hadn't come, there would be no forgiveness of sin...thus my "smart answer".


I would presume I would be forgiven because I am well aware that Christ came to save sinners. Get it?

Nope, I don't get it. I would rather hear you say because I am flesh and in weakness I gave into temptation. Not this freewill hypocritical vanity that says because I chose to when I just as easily could have chosen not to. I've seen alchoholism and the bondage of those who fight their addictions. I've seen those who truly believing they are serving God, persecute the merciful and say they deserve no mercy because they have freewills. I've seen the Pharisees who serve Satan when they think they are servants of God. There is a blindness and a bondage of the will that Jesus as the great physician came to heal. I know two alchoholics that Jesus cured instantly. I know one Pharisee who used to believe in freewill. That would be me.

 

[childeye]

If we close our mind to truth, it cannot seep in, to bring about knowledge, and therefore, we will remain in ignorance...

Well said Grubal. I was once in ignorance and hence I was in darkness. But this much I could not run away from, do unto others as I would have done to me. There was no way I could deny the self evidence that Love was good. From this little mustard seed of belief, the Holy Spirit revealed the hypocrisy of all the lies that were in me and he opened my eyes and set my will free. So is my testimony.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well said Grubal. I was once in ignorance and hence I was in darkness. But this much I could not run away from, do unto others as I would have done to me. There was no way I could deny the self evidence that Love was good. From this little mustard seed of belief, the Holy Spirit revealed the hypocrisy of all the lies that were in me and he opened my eyes and set my will free. So is my testimony.

Except for the fact that, your not, "born again" yet...But, there's still hope...

 

[childeye]

This was written by Justin Martyr: second apology of Justin for the Christians addressed to the Roman senate, chapter five:

But if this idea take possession of some one that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not act as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this too I will solve. God, when He made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law- for these things also He evidently made for man-committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to them selves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions;and among men they sowed murders, wars,adulteries,intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to God Himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of those offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

 

[childeye]

Except for the fact that, your not, "born again" yet...But, there's still hope...

My my, Grubal, but I am describing what happened to me when I was as you put it "born again" through belief in the Christ. Now where are the answers I requested?

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;589556]Please finish this sentence for me...

There is no excuse for vanity and not giving God the glory BECAUSE...........
Why? Why is there no excuse for that terrible behavior?

Because God is the power in us that knows what is good, Love by virtue of being created by God. It is unrighteous to think otherwise. Do unto others as we would have done unto us is self-evident, and so to do unto others what we would not want done to us is incriminating and hypocritical. Love does the golden rule by force of empathy not by the ability to reason.

First of all wrath is revealed against those who...."hold the truth in unrighteousness;" (they know the truth but are still unrighteous)

That's what I just said. I would only add that Paul is most likely refering generally to all men.

Because...

THAT WHICH IS KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM

FOR GOD HAS SHOWN IT TO THEM

THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM (from the Creation)...

ARE CLEARLY SEEN

BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE (all of creation including man)

EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD

SO THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE

That's what I just said. It is the power of God the Godhead that reveals what is good not freewill. It is unrighteous to claim that men have the power to be good without Love. Hence those who believe this, hold the Truth in unrighteousness. Pharisees deceived in self righteous vanity that is Satanic in nature.

Then it goes on with another BECAUSE.....the reasons given above are why man is without excuse.

But we'll go on...."Because that, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD (see above), they glorified Him not as God," etc., etc., etc.,

As I said above

You are giving the results as the reason. That's upside down, Childeye. No wonder you're confused.

I see Paul refering to the unrighteousness that supresses the Truth as further being described as not esteeming God as God when they knew God, hence he mentions the Godhead through which knowledge of all things Godly comes as God's attributes given to men and not our own attributes.

The just deserts for such ignorance is that men were given over to the lusts of the flesh whereas had they acknowledged that God is the wisdom in them and not themselves, there would have been no vanity. But instead being unthankful and thinking they were wise they became fools. So it is we all experience lust because we had the same vanity that was introduced by Satan and his angels and this is evident wherein Satan says we can disobey God and yet live. And Satan proposes that through the knowledge of good and evil we could be like God which presupposes that God chooses to be good or evil through such knowledge rather than He is good because He is the Spirit of goodness. And this is the form of freewill I oppose. But do not oppose the freewill that says we have no excuse for vanity. For we already had a freewill without this knowledge of good and evil in the form of Love. That is why there are semantics involved with this topic. We tried to fix what was not broken and broke it.

And this is made more clear through the fact we all have been made subject to lust of the flesh. And so this is not by our freewill that we lust but rather an enslaved will. For that is why Paul says in Romans two,"therefore you are inexcusable whoever you are who judges another for wherein you judge another you condemn yourself". And elsewhere he reiterates saying "that which I will to do, I do not; but that which I will not to do , that I do".

So in conclusion if we admit we wrongly took God for granted and this is why there is sin through lust of the flesh, we cannot now be double minded and hold others accountable for their sin through such lust lest we condemn ourselves. But God can, since He it was who was our goodness, whom we took for granted in the first place when we did not esteem God as God, which is why it is by mercy we are saved.

Ephesians 2:2-3

King James Version (KJV)



2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[glorydaz]

I was not intent on misleading anybody. This post was meant for Asyncritus who had already posted the part that said "choose whom you will serve". My point was to show Asyncritus that it made no difference that Joshua said "choose" since he afterward said "you can't serve God".

He didn't say, you can't serve God....that's it...end of story.

You're taking that partial sentence so out of context you've ended up adulterating the very Word of God.

If you're going to make a point, please don't mishandle the Word and change it's meaning while you're doing it.

 

[glorydaz]

Except for the fact that, your not, "born again" yet...But, there's still hope...

Amen, brother.

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

[childeye]

He didn't say, you can't serve God....that's it...end of story.

You're taking that partial sentence so out of context you've ended up adulterating the very Word of God.

If you're going to make a point, please don't mishandle the Word and change it's meaning while you're doing it.

My bible says that he said "you cannot serve God". And this is fufilled already as we all have merited death through the curse of the law. Note Joshua says you are all witnesses against yourselves in verse 24:22. You seem unwilling to admit we are witnessess against ourselves since we all have already merited death through our sins. We have all been blinded by the god of this world. God must makes us able to serve Him through the Holy Spirit. For Joshua having the Holy Spirit knew as for his house they would serve the Lord, he could not choose otherwise for he had the Truth, that there are no other gods...
Joshua 24:19

King James Version (KJV)


19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Ephesians 2:2-3

King James Version (KJV)



2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[childeye]

Amen, brother.

Re: Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

Originally Posted by Grubal Muruch
Except for the fact that, your not, "born again" yet...But, there's still hope...



Amen, brother.

Originally Posted by Romans 8:25
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it

Salvation is a work in progress but the rebirth is that I am a New Creation in Christ. And He has aleady begun the work. Sorry guys but you, as usual, misinterpret.
​

 

[glorydaz]

My bible says that he said "you cannot serve God". And this is fufilled already as we all have merited death through the curse of the law. Note Joshua says you are all witnesses against yourselves in verse 24:22. You seem unwilling to admit we are witnessess against ourselves since we all have already merited death through our sins. We have all been blinded by the god of this world. God must makes us able to serve Him through the Holy Spirit. For Joshua having the Holy Spirit knew as for his house they would serve the Lord, he could not choose otherwise for he had the Truth, that there are no other gods...
Joshua 24:19

King James Version (KJV)


19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Ephesians 2:2-3

King James Version (KJV)



2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

When did Joshua receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[childeye]

When did Joshua receive the Holy Spirit?

Couldn't tell you. Only that Joshua was a type for the Christ, and he would not choose another god knowing there aren't any other gods. That alone is the Holy Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

This was written by Justin Martyr: second apology of Justin for the Christians addressed to the Roman senate, chapter five:

But if this idea take possession of some one that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not act as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this too I will solve. God, when He made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law- for these things also He evidently made for man-committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to them selves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions;and among men they sowed murders, wars,adulteries,intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to God Himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of those offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

Oops, this is where spiritual discernment comes in, Childeye. When you read anyone's statements, and you see something that goes against the Inspired Word of God, you stop. You don't post it as proof of anything.

I can well see why there were those who discovered "blemishes" in Justin's theology, which were attributed to the influence of pagan philosophers.

There are some real blemishes in what you posted. Angels begating children with women who were then called demons. That's just nonsense. This idea comes from this verse...(The sons of God ARE NOT angels)

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

The sons of God are the descendants of Seth, (Gen. 4:26) "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD."

The sons of men are the descendants of Esau (Gen. 4:16) "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."

 

[glorydaz]

Couldn't tell you. Only that Joshua was a type for the Christ, and he would not choose another god knowing there aren't any other gods. That alone is the Holy Spirit.

You do realize, don't you, that the children in the wilderness followed the Lord and then fell away...then followed the Lord and then fell away...over and over again, right? David did the same thing. I just about gave up on David, but we know how that turned out. Serving God is something man chooses to do. Man also chooses to sin against God.

And what about Moses? Moses wasn't allowed to enter into the Promised Land...and yet we see him on the Mount of Transfiguration. Should make you think a little bit. :nod

 

[glorydaz]

Salvation is a work in progress but the rebirth is that I am a New Creation in Christ. And He has aleady begun the work. Sorry guys but you, as usual, misinterpret.
​

Rather than "misrepresent," it's more that your idea of salvation is different than what we see in the Word.