Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[glorydaz]

Because God is the power in us that knows what is good, Love by virtue of being created by God. It is unrighteous to think otherwise. Do unto others as we would have done unto us is self-evident, and so to do unto others what we would not want done to us is incriminating and hypocritical. Love does the golden rule by force of empathy not by the ability to reason.

That's what I just said. I would only add that Paul is most likely refering generally to all men.

That's what I just said. It is the power of God the Godhead that reveals what is good not freewill. It is unrighteous to claim that men have the power to be good without Love. Hence those who believe this, hold the Truth in unrighteousness. Pharisees deceived in self righteous vanity that is Satanic in nature.

As I said above

I see Paul refering to the unrighteousness that supresses the Truth as further being described as not esteeming God as God when they knew God, hence he mentions the Godhead through which knowledge of all things Godly comes as God's attributes given to men and not our own attributes.

The just deserts for such ignorance is that men were given over to the lusts of the flesh whereas had they acknowledged that God is the wisdom in them and not themselves, there would have been no vanity. But instead being unthankful and thinking they were wise they became fools. So it is we all experience lust because we had the same vanity that was introduced by Satan and his angels and this is evident wherein Satan says we can disobey God and yet live. And Satan proposes that through the knowledge of good and evil we could be like God which presupposes that God chooses to be good or evil through such knowledge rather than He is good because He is the Spirit of goodness. And this is the form of freewill I oppose. But do not oppose the freewill that says we have no excuse for vanity. For we already had a freewill without this knowledge of good and evil in the form of Love. That is why there are semantics involved with this topic. We tried to fix what was not broken and broke it.

And this is made more clear through the fact we all have been made subject to lust of the flesh. And so this is not by our freewill that we lust but rather an enslaved will. For that is why Paul says in Romans two,"therefore you are inexcusable whoever you are who judges another for wherein you judge another you condemn yourself". And elsewhere he reiterates saying "that which I will to do, I do not; but that which I will not to do , that I do".

So in conclusion if we admit we wrongly took God for granted and this is why there is sin through lust of the flesh, we cannot now be double minded and hold others accountable for their sin through such lust lest we condemn ourselves. But God can, since He it was who was our goodness, whom we took for granted in the first place when we did not esteem God as God, which is why it is by mercy we are saved.

Ephesians 2:2-3

King James Version (KJV)



2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I see a lot of words with barely a whisper of knowledge in them. It's a mixed up world, but it isn't that mixed up.

Rather than waste your "love" by telling me how unrighteous I am for understanding the Word as it's plainly written, perhaps you should concentrate on searching the Scripture to find our how love is shown forth in the believer.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;589680]Oops, this is where spiritual discernment comes in, Childeye. When you read anyone's statements, and you see something that goes against the Inspired Word of God, you stop. You don't post it as proof of anything.

I can well see why there were those who discovered "blemishes" in Justin's theology, which were attributed to the influence of pagan philosophers.

There are some real blemishes in what you posted. Angels begating children with women who were then called demons. That's just nonsense. This idea comes from this verse...(The sons of God ARE NOT angels)

Once again you misapply my point. Please note that I never said I agreed with Justin Martyr about demons nor have I said the sons of God are angels although I don't leave out the prospect that some may become so. I do agree that we are under angels and that the administration of the Old Testament was carried out by angels. I also do agree that men were subdued by angels. Justin Martyr wrote it. It was against my better wisdom to just post the things I agree with, that's all.

The sons of God are the descendants of Seth, (Gen. 4:26) "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD."

I don't see in scripture where it says the descendents of Seth were the sons of God.

The sons of men are the descendants of Esau (Gen. 4:16) "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."

Jesus called himself both a son of man and the son of God. So what does that say?

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Sure glad i can copy and paste this and do not have to type it out all the time.

Be nice

 

[childeye]

I see a lot of words with barely a whisper of knowledge in them. It's a mixed up world, but it isn't that mixed up.

There's only one God, glorydaz. That is all I've said. We have no excuse for thinking we have a choice to deny Him as He is all there is. That's all I've said.

Rather than waste your "love" by telling me how unrighteous I am for understanding the Word as it's plainly written, perhaps you should concentrate on searching the Scripture to find our how love is shown forth in the believer

.

Yes, I will take your advice. For scripture says that Love treats others as I would want to be treated. As you had asked for answers I gave them. That is how Love works. It seems to me you are the mixed up one as you keep arguing that God gave us a choice, and then say He blames us for choosing incorrectly. I am arguing that Satan proposed the choice and God is angry because we believed there was one. Hence we denied there is a Godhead that is eternal as Romans 1 claims. Read it again until you get it. There's only one God. That's all I've said. If you believe the scripture is saying there is more than one God, then you are right about being unrighteous in your understanding the scripture. If you believe there is only one Eternal God, then we are in agreement and there is no choice according to such knowledge no matter what Satan said.

 

[glorydaz]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Sure glad i can copy and paste this and do not have to type it out all the time.

Be nice

LOL Okay, Reba. I'll just let this go. It does seem pretty pointless, anyway.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Rather than "misrepresent," it's more that your idea of salvation is different than what we see in the Word.

Way different...

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;589683]You do realize, don't you, that the children in the wilderness followed the Lord and then fell away...then followed the Lord and then fell away...over and over again, right?

I see generations of men who fall away and generations that return. I see those who experience desolate times who cling to God and those who after being born blessed and ignorant of such desolation take things for granted and fall away. I see a child thanking God for a crust of bread and and a rich man cursing God for a scratch in his Ferrari.

David did the same thing. I just about gave up on David, but we know how that turned out. Serving God is something man chooses to do. Man also chooses to sin against God.

Yes I know men choose to serve God sometimes and sometimes they choose not to. But why? Do they do so of a freewill or are men deceived into thinking they can be righteous by their own discretion? Is man in control of his destiny or not?

You mention David. Was david's freewill why he was able to slay Goliath? Or is it because God delivered Goliath into David's hand? When God told David there was a greedy man in his kingdom who had many sheep but he desired to take the only sheep of another man, why did David draw his sword saying , where is he and I will kill him? Obviously he did not know it was him, God was talking about. So David did not even see his own sin, lest God show him. So these things show that it doesn't matter that men have the capacity to choose. Men need knowledge to choose wisely, they need God and so we are not free to determine our own destiny. I'm sure you will dodge this as it destroys the theory you are pushing here, just as you have ignored all the things I've said.

And what about Moses? Moses wasn't allowed to enter into the Promised Land...and yet we see him on the Mount of Transfiguration. Should make you think a little bit. :nod

Think of What? Why wouldn't Moses be on the Mount of transfiguration? Moses was a type for the Old Testament law through which came accusation. He struck the rock of Christ, but Christ forgives. Moreover this shows Moses was not in control of his own destiny. So it is that faith in God is righteousness. For there are some would want to be in control of their own destiny and consider it freedom, and then there are those who trust God to determine their destiny believing they will fare better if they do.

So you can say we can choose to disobey God all you want, and even call it an ability and freedom, but I will simply ask; Why would I want to disobey God?

 

[childeye]

Mankind thinks they choose what to believe by a freewill, when in fact by default we always must believe something.

There is a Truth set down by God, and when we see it, we either submit to this Truth or we submit to a lie. Therefore to say we choose what to believe is in reality saying we need to come into knowledge of the Truth lest we be slaves, in a servitude to lies.

What a person believes morally is what makes a person righteous or unrighteous. That's why the Truth of the Gospel is about the surety of God's Love and therefore our commitment to that faith through faithful servitude to that Love. The fruits of a person are the evidence of the Spirit of God that lives in them, or the absence of it in them. Therefore it is self evident that ones choices of action are preceded by what they believe in.

Freewill is a contradiction at the outset for it claims each and every man has the ability to both obey and deny God of his own will without any compulsion, restraint, or pre-existing causes including divine intervention. This means the faithful can at any time choose to be unfaithful, and the unfaithful can at any time choose to be faithful and then back again, without any motivating factors that compel anyone to be either faithful or unfaithful. It makes one wonder if faithful really means faithful.

 

[glorydaz]

Mankind thinks they choose what to believe by a freewill, when in fact by default we always must believe something.

There is a Truth set down by God, and when we see it, we either submit to this Truth or we submit to a lie. Therefore to say we choose what to believe is in reality saying we need to come into knowledge of the Truth lest we be slaves, in a servitude to lies.

What a person believes morally is what makes a person righteous or unrighteous. That's why the Truth of the Gospel is about the surety of God's Love and therefore our commitment to that faith through faithful servitude to that Love. The fruits of a person are the evidence of the Spirit of God that lives in them, or the absence of it in them. Therefore it is self evident that ones choices of action are preceded by what they believe in.

Freewill is a contradiction at the outset for it claims each and every man has the ability to both obey and deny God of his own will without any compulsion, restraint, or pre-existing causes including divine intervention. This means the faithful can at any time choose to be unfaithful, and the unfaithful can at any time choose to be faithful and then back again, without any motivating factors that compel anyone to be either faithful or unfaithful. It makes one wonder if faithful really means faithful.

Note the part in red. You just admitted to freewill. I rest my case.

 

[Jam]

Note the part in red. You just admitted to freewill. I rest my case.

Making decisions (such as submission) does not necessitate the existence of free will. Note also that something doesn't become true simply because childeye says it;)

 

[glorydaz]

Making decisions (such as submission) does not necessitate the existence of free will. Note also that something doesn't become true simply because childeye says it;)

I agree with the latter. lol

As for the former, we can certainly be forced to submit to a brutal dictator's demands against our will, but in our heart we haven't submitted at all. Therefore, true submission requires a willing heart. We can obey under duress, or we can choose to willingly obey. There is no middle ground that I can see.

 

[glorydaz]

It seems to me you are the mixed up one as you keep arguing that God gave us a choice, and then say He blames us for choosing incorrectly.

No, I keep saying God gave us a choice, and then we face His Judgment if we choose "incorrectly". For to choose Him leads to life, and to choose any other way leads to death.

 

[savedbygrace57]

There is not one verse in all of scripture that states man has a freewill !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No, I keep saying God gave us a choice, and then we face His Judgment if we choose "incorrectly". For to choose Him leads to life, and to choose any other way leads to death.

Glory, as usual you proclaim the "truth" of God's Word...AMEN...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I agree with the latter. lol

As for the former, we can certainly be forced to submit to a brutal dictator's demands against our will, but in our heart we haven't submitted at all. Therefore, true submission requires a willing heart. We can obey under duress, or we can choose to willingly obey. There is no middle ground that I can see.

As usual you come from a "logical" perspective Glory...

 

[reba]

Over and over these verses have been posted. To my reading ithey have been pretty much ignored, Some post I just miss ..

So i will ask Daz, what are your and Grubs thoughts on this passages? There are others but these are very direct, straight forward and to the point.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


Hey Grub do the scriptures rate an AMEN?

 

[glorydaz]

There is not one verse in all of scripture that states man has a freewill !

There isn't one verse in all of scripture that says man walks on two legs, either, but that's because everyone knows it's true. However, there are many scriptures that say clearly man has a free will. Here's just a sampling.


Judges 5:2 - Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

1 Chronicles 29:14 - But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

1 Chronicles 29:17 - I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

2 Chronicles 17:16 - And next him was Amasiah the son of Zichri, who willingly offered himself unto the LORD; and with him two hundred thousand mighty men of valour.

Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Hosea 5:11 - Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.

1 Corinthians 9:17 - For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Philemon 1:14 - But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

1 Peter 5:2 - Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

We even see those who are "willingly..ignorant".

2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Then, of course, we see God expects us to choose....He wouldn't expect something we are unable to do.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[glorydaz]

Over and over these verses have been posted. To my reading ithey have been pretty much ignored, Some post I just miss ..

So i will ask Daz, what are your and Grubs thoughts on this passages? There are others but these are very direct, straight forward and to the point.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Actually, I have answered these...more than once. The verses in John 15, Jesus is speaking to the twelve Apostles. He did choose all of them, as you will recall.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I've addressed these as well. Paul is speaking of the church, the body of Christ. "Chosen us IN HIM". Speaking of the "whosoever" comes by faith IN JESUS. These are not specific individuals, but the body...those who comprise the Temple of the LIVING GOD. Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Again, God chose those who choose the Son...those who believe in Him. It isn't like God would choose those who don't believe in Him. As Israel was the chosen nation, the church (body of Christ) is the chosen nation. As Israel was a peculiar people, the believers (church...body of Christ) are a peculiar people.

God commands all men everywhere to repent....they are the "many called." Those who do repent and trust in Jesus are the chosen...they are the "few chosen."

Hey Grub do the scriptures rate an AMEN?

I'm sure the Scripture you posted will get an Amen, but what you're trying to prove by posting them shouldn't. God doesn't choose anyone unless they've chosen the Son. He is the Elect One of God and only those who are IN Christ are the elect, and only because they are IN HIM.

 

[reba]

I'm sure the Scripture you posted will get an Amen, but what you're trying to prove by posting them shouldn't. God doesn't choose anyone unless they've chosen the Son. He is the Elect One of God and only those who are IN Christ are the elect, and only because they are IN HIM.

I will believe what the scriptures say, not a doctrine of man. So what else in the 15 chapter of John is not written for the Church?

how about ?
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Again, God chose those who choose the Son...those who believe in Him.

here is another verse in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The way John 6:44 reads to me is a 180 from your doctrine.

 

[glorydaz]

I will believe what the scriptures say, not a doctrine of man. So what else in the 15 chapter of John is not written for the Church?

It isn't a doctrine of men to read the Bible and see who Jesus is speaking to, especially when you claim every "chosen" is referring to something it isn't. The Apostles are a very special "chosen" and you don't seem to want to hear that. The Apostles bear witness because they were with Jesus "from the beginning". From the foundation of the church.

Ephesians 2:19-20 -Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 3:5 - Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

John 6:70 - Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 13:18 - I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:27 - And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Luke 6:13 - And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Acts 1:2 - Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 2:43 - And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Acts 4:33 - And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

how about ?
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus was speaking to His chosen Apostles directly....thus the references to the "chosen" are to them. Here He is praying for the Apostles. We know this because the part in red is speaking of those who believe through the testimony of the Apostles.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that we aren't to take all of Jesus's words as our own. But, the "chosen" ones mentioned in these verses are the Apostles. That is who He was speaking to...they are the foundation upon which the church is built. This is why I say we must always read verses in their context so that we avoid making doctrinal errors.

here is another verse in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The way John 6:44 reads to me is a 180 from your doctrine.

I can't do anything about how you read it, Reba. I only know I have no doctrine except what's written in the Word of God. I'm sorry you feel the need to constantly be referring to my "doctrine", as if I were a follower of man instead of God.

The cross is what lifts Jesus up for all the world to see....He draws all men unto Himself.
John 12:31-33 - "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

In CONTEXT, this is what John 6 says...read verse 40 and then read 44. When Jesus is lifted up by the Gospel message they are drawn by God's Word to look upon Him and believe. Just as the Serpent was lifted up in the wilderness and they needed to look upon it to live.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, I'm here on this forum to share my understanding of the Word of God. If that upsets you, I'm sorry. You are free to believe whatever you like, and it won't bother me in the least. I do wish you wouldn't get so defensive every time I post, however. You don't need to accuse me of being diametrically opposed to the Scripture simply because I don't read it the way you do.