Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[Grubal Muruch]

Here is a verse displaying free will:

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

Excellent proof Scriptures...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Whoa. It surely does show free will. How else would you turn your heart away. Are you saying God turns your heart away?

Old Covenant? Well it still shows free will. The people had free will then as we do now. They didn't HAVE to provide a suitable sacrifice in faith that God would send the Messiah to pay for their sin. Just like Cain, he had a choice whether to do what was right in God's eyes or not.

If you don't believe in free will, why the designation between Old and New Covenant?

AMEN!!!

 

[childeye]

Excellent proof Scriptures...

Yes excellent proof of sin in mankind, not freewill.

 

[Gazelle]

Well, perhaps we need to begin at the beginning. What is your definition of "free will". I think we have two differing definitions since you can't see it in the verses.

Here's one in the New Testament, btw : John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

Please answer my previous questions, or say you won't. I truly wish a conversation and question/answer between us.

Are you saying God turns your heart away?
If you don't believe in free will, why the designation between Old and New Covenant?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, perhaps we need to begin at the beginning. What is your definition of "free will". I think we have two differing definitions since you can't see it in the verses.

Here's one in the New Testament, btw : John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

Please answer my previous questions, or say you won't. I truly wish a conversation and question/answer between us.

Are you saying God turns your heart away?
If you don't believe in free will, why the designation between Old and New Covenant?

AMEN!!

 

[childeye]

=Gazelle;586159]Whoa. It surely does show free will. How else would you turn your heart away. Are you saying God turns your heart away?

It shows sin is present not freewill, or did you not know that sin turns the heart away from God? It's all over scriptures. Otherwise are you saying you choose to sin freely and wantonly and knowingly distrust God and choose death over life? Please answer.

They didn't HAVE to provide a suitable sacrifice in faith that God would send the Messiah to pay for their sin.

Who is they? Are you saying the Jews knew God would sacrifice His son for them?

Just like Cain, he had a choice whether to do what was right in God's eyes or not.

So then if what is right is contingent upon what God says, where do you presume the choice is? Did Cain choose to have the lie of sin knocking at the door of his heart? Did he choose to have vanity which is why the sin was present. Can you prove he had the faith in God necessary to overcome sin? Where is this freewill you claim? Are you saying Cain wanted to feel jealousy and so he freely chose to? Are you saying he simply could have chosen not to feel it? where is this freewill? Please answer.

If you don't believe in free will, why the designation between Old and New Covenant?

Because one is death through the letter and one is Life through the Spirit, so that God be acknowledged that Life is in Him not in ourselves. I believe a freewill is one that is set free from the slavery of sin by that Truth that God reveals according to His mercy and grace.

You have ignored my valid points. Do you claim you have never sinned and have therefore chosen life through the works of the law, or do you admit that sin is present in man keeping him from doing what is righteous whereby we cannot choose life and acquire it through the works of the law? Do you believe a mans choices are made freely or that ones choices reflect their ignorance and knowledge of the Truth. Do the wise freely choose to be wise and the fools freely choose to be foolish? Do the seeing freely choose to be blind or the blind freely choose to be seeing, or does God give sight because He is the Light? Please answer.

 

[Gazelle]

Ok I was only picking up the thread from where I came in... here is where I'm at:

the Bible says all men are sinners, without merit and saved by God's grace apart from any works of man. Man cannot will himself to be saved nor has the ability, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, to respond to God.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:22)

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6)

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead." (2 Corinthians 5:14)

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)

What you are saying then, if I have this right, is that at no time man has free will. Prior to accepting Christ, sin controls him, and afterwards, God controls him, is that right?

Yes, "they" refer to the chosen people, Israel. They knew God would send a Savior, that is why they gave sacrifice on the day of Atonement, showing their faith that God WOULD send His Sacrificial Lamb. They looked forward to the cross just like we look backward to the cross.

Do you claim you have never sinned and have therefore chosen life through the works of the law, or do you admit that sin is present in man keeping him from doing what is righteous? Do you believe a mans choices are made freely or that ones choices reflect their ignorance and knowledge of the Truth. Do the wise freely choose to be wise and the fools freely choose to be foolish?

I make no such claims, as you see in my statement of faith above.
Man's choices are made by himself/herself, yet they still reflect his/her ignorance or knowledge of the Truth. Yes, the wise choose to be wise and the foolish to be foolish. This is born out in Scripture. Wisdom is knowledge used correctly. Not everyone who is wise makes all decisions wisely. The fool prefers to stay a fool, choosing not to give the time and energy into learning knowledge nor in how to use that knowledge wisely.

For my clarification, can you tell me what format you feel you base your beliefs upon...Hyper Calvinism, Calvinism, Moderate Calvinism or Armenianism? Thanks!

 

[childeye]

=Gazelle;586178]Well, perhaps we need to begin at the beginning. What is your definition of "free will". I think we have two differing definitions since you can't see it in the verses.

I would perceive the freewill you are talking about as simply a will.

 

[Gazelle]

LOL I requested YOUR definition of free will, not what you perceive as MY definition of free will.

I do see where you say that free will is only given to those who trust in Christ, after they trust in Christ. Is that right?

That makes me curious. It's interesting because why would someone who had no free will prior to that, then have free will after they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God. Wouldn't that preclude any of man's will at that point, if that premise is true?

I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm really trying to understand your reasoning.

Hmm how would that differ: the "will" of a man vs the "free will" of a man.... is sin in control before God's indwelling, and God in control after His indwelling?

 

[glorydaz]

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Are men 'free' under sin?

I say, yes. Man is free to obey or disobey whichever master he serves.

The man who is under bondage to sin has a conscience, and knows the difference between right and wrong (unless his repeated sinning has seared his conscience completely.) Sometimes he will obey his conscience, and turn away from sin, but he has no power to completely resist on a continuing basis. I'm sure we've all known people who always try to do what's right, but self-will only takes us so far. They don't have the guiding power that we have as believers.

After we're saved, we are no longer under bondage to sin, although we can still disobey God, and until we're given glorified bodies we can't escape this body of sin. We're to "reckon" or consider ourselves dead to sin, since sin has no real power over us. The more maturity we have in the Lord, and the more our mind is renewed by the Word of God, the easier it becomes to obey.

I love the story about the old indian with two dogs....one black and one white, and they fought all the time. When asked who usually won, he replied, the one I feed the most.

 

[childeye]

=Gazelle;586184]Ok I was only picking up the thread from where I came in... here is where I'm at:

What you are saying then, if I have this right, is that at no time man has free will. Prior to accepting Christ, sin controls him, and afterwards, God controls him, is that right?

I would say the will was free before the knowledge of good and evil, and is made free again at the redemption.

Yes, "they" refer to the chosen people, Israel. They knew God would send a Savior, that is why they gave sacrifice on the day of Atonement, showing their faith that God WOULD send His Sacrificial Lamb. They looked forward to the cross just like we look backward to the cross. [/color]

Where would we find proof that they knew the man Jesus would be sacrificed for their sins?

I make no such claims, as you see in my statement of faith above.

Then you cannot cite the scripture you cite as proof of a freewill.

Man's choices are made by himself/herself, yet they still reflect his/her ignorance or knowledge of the Truth.

So an ignorant man could not be expected to choose knowingly. I submit then that the word free placed in front of will is relative and not an absolute.

Yes, the wise choose to be wise and the foolish to be foolish. This is born out in Scripture. Wisdom is knowledge used correctly. Not everyone who is wise makes all decisions wisely. The fool prefers to stay a fool, choosing not to give the time and energy into learning knowledge nor in how to use that knowledge wisely.

Semantics involved here. Perhaps I should have said does a man obtain wisdom by his own will?

For my clarification, can you tell me what format you feel you base your beliefs upon...Hyper Calvinism, Calvinism, Moderate Calvinism or Armenianism? Thanks!

I know very little about any of them. I just know God is Love and trustworthy.

 

[glorydaz]

Okay glorydaz, I'm open to understanding, but I'm not gullible. How does this scripture say God is not the goodness in mankind?

If that's the case, God is the goodness in all of His creation. That may be too philisophical for me to answer. I may have to think on that one. We're a part of God's creation, made in God's image, but I'm thinking the answer to that would have to be NO. When we're born again of God, and have God dwelling in us through the Holy Spirit, it's still His goodness in us.

I'm open if anyone has support from the Bible.....

 

[childeye]

=Gazelle;586191]LOL I requested YOUR definition of free will, not what you perceive as MY definition of free will.

I don't believe that men choose freely what they desire but that the carnal mind desires differently than the spiritual mind. As these two are contrary and so will contrarily, I do not comprehend how the term free could be applied to any other than the will that is led by the Spirit. For the will that wills carnal things would erringly count the things of the Spirit as slavery.

I do see where you say that free will is only given to those who trust in Christ, after they trust in Christ. Is that right?

I would say the will is set free when sin is no longer present and a man is content, thankful and without want. Yes the Spirit of Christ is this.

That makes me curious. It's interesting because why would someone who had no free will prior to that, then have free will after they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God. Wouldn't that preclude any of man's will at that point, if that premise is true?

The Holy Spirit changes the will from the Old man to the New man. I'm not sure what you mean by this phenomenon precluding any of man's will. Could you rephrase?

Hmm how would that differ: the "will" of a man vs the "free will" of a man.... is sin in control before God's indwelling, and God in control after His indwelling?

Yes I think pertaining to morality the True Image of God is what makes the difference. For it replaces the false corruptible one.

 

[childeye]

If that's the case, God is the goodness in all of His creation. That may be too philisophical for me to answer. I may have to think on that one. We're a part of God's creation, made in God's image, but I'm thinking the answer to that would have to be NO. When we're born again of God, and have God dwelling in us through the Holy Spirit, it's still His goodness in us.

I'm open if anyone has support from the Bible.....

Sorry I'm lost. I don't recall asking a question that required a yes or no answer.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586193]I say, yes. Man is free to obey or disobey whichever master he serves.

A freewill would have no master. But even apart from that you can't serve two masters. Moreover you can't choose what you can't believe in. To him that hath more will be given but him who hath not, even what little he hath will be taken away. Therefore one can only believe in Godly love who has Godly Love. That is scripture. Try to see what is being said here by Jesus.

 

[kjb1769]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, -Hebrews 6:4
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, -Hebrews 6:5
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. -Hebrews 6:6

I wonder how those in verse 4 who have been partakers of the Holy Ghost could fall away in verse 6 if they didn't have a free will to do so?

 

[childeye]

=kjb1769;586203]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, -Hebrews 6:4
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, -Hebrews 6:5
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. -Hebrews 6:6

I wonder how those in verse 4 who have been partakers of the Holy Ghost could fall away in verse 6 if they didn't have a free will to do so?

Well they certainly don't have the freewill to come back according to the scripture. Moreover, how is the falling back into the power of sin and death a freewill?

 

[glorydaz]

Yes excellent proof of sin in mankind, not freewill.

Do you think sin just kind of jumped into mankind? How did it do that?

I'll tell you. We see that by Adam sin enter INTO THE WORLD. Not into man.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because of that sin, man no longer had access to the tree of life, so death came into the world by (way of) sin.

Each man sins on his own as he is drawn away by his own lusts...when Paul speaks of sin dwelling in us, he is speaking of the motions of sin in our members. Sin isn't a being...even a spiritual being, it is an action of our minds and bodies.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

So, mankind is still good, as God proclaimed. It's our sinning that is not good.

 

[reba]

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586208]Do you think sin just kind of jumped into mankind? How did it do that?

Through the knowledge of good and evil and a corrupt image of god.

I'll tell you. We see that by Adam sin enter INTO THE WORLD. Not into man.

Sin entered into all men through Adam because he ate of the knowledge of good and evil...

Sin isn't a being...even a spiritual being, it is an action of our minds and bodies.

That you claim you freely chose? No it was made manifest
Manifest through a false image of God and vanity. The mind of Satan vs. the mind of Christ. Moreover the fruits of the Spirit of Truth vs. the lust of the flesh.

So, mankind is still good, as God proclaimed. It's our sinning that is not good.

It is a false image of god that is not good. Sin is a direction away from God. There are unclean spirits that are entities that exist and occupy the darkness that is void of the light.

Please don't ignore this:
Romans 1:28-32

King James Version (KJV)



28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.