Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[glorydaz]

It shows sin is present not freewill, or did you not know that sin turns the heart away from God? It's all over scriptures. Otherwise are you saying you choose to sin freely and wantonly and knowingly distrust God and choose death over life? Please answer.

Not that Gazelle needs any help, but I'd like to include my input in this discussion.

This above statement by you is in response to the text in Deut. where God says, "Choose life". Just because it was in the Old Testament doesn't mean God's Word changes in the least. Men do freely choose to sin, not because they have no control over their mind, but because they are drawn away by their lusts. God is saying quite clearly the consequences of sin. The soul that sinneth shall die. If, as you seem to be saying, man has no choice but to sin, then you are taking away man's responsibility to obey God. God obviously holds us accountable. Can you deny that?

So then if what is right is contingent upon what God says, where do you presume the choice is? Did Cain choose to have the lie of sin knocking at the door of his heart? Did he choose to have vanity which is why the sin was present. Can you prove he had the faith in God necessary to overcome sin? Where is this freewill you claim? Are you saying Cain wanted to feel jealousy and so he freely chose to? Are you saying he simply could have chosen not to feel it? where is this freewill? Please answer.

Put quite simply, Cain chose to disobey God. I see excuses being offered when God says there are none.

You have ignored my valid points. Do you claim you have never sinned and have therefore chosen life through the works of the law, or do you admit that sin is present in man keeping him from doing what is righteous whereby we cannot choose life and acquire it through the works of the law? Do you believe a mans choices are made freely or that ones choices reflect their ignorance and knowledge of the Truth. Do the wise freely choose to be wise and the fools freely choose to be foolish? Do the seeing freely choose to be blind or the blind freely choose to be seeing, or does God give sight because He is the Light? Please answer.

Again, God is stating the consequences of sin. Men can choose to obey which results in life, or they can choose to disobey which results in death. That is what is meant in that scripture...no more no less.

This is like having a discussion about why the earth doesn't fall out of the sky. There is nothing complicated about it. Man can come up with all kinds of excuses and motives, but sin is sin and we have to choose to commit sin or it isn't sin at all.

 

[glorydaz]

Sorry I'm lost. I don't recall asking a question that required a yes or no answer.

You asked if God calling man "good" wasn't God in man. Never mind. It's really not important.

 

[glorydaz]

A freewill would have no master. But even apart from that you can't serve two masters. Moreover you can't choose what you can't believe in. To him that hath more will be given but him who hath not, even what little he hath will be taken away. Therefore one can only believe in Godly love who has Godly Love. That is scripture. Try to see what is being said here by Jesus.

You're doing a lot of mixing there.

Okay, man has his own will...that's called our free will.

Even before we're saved, we have a conscience...do we not?

A little voice pops into our head and says it's wrong to steal from your neighbor.
We can choose to listen to that voice or not, correct?

Did that ever happen to you before you were saved?

Or, did you never hear that voice? Answer me please. Just that and nothing else.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586216]Not that Gazelle needs any help, but I'd like to include my input in this discussion.

By all means interject.

This above statement by you is in response to the text in Deut. where God says, "Choose life". Just because it was in the Old Testament doesn't mean God's Word changes in the least.

I agree for I have not claimed God's Word changes.

Men do freely choose to sin, not because they have no control over their mind, but because they are drawn away by their lusts.

So how does one deceived with a lie have control of the mind? Of what purpose is the Truth if one is not deceived?

God is saying quite clearly the consequences of sin. The soul that sinneth shall die. If, as you seem to be saying, man has no choice but to sin, then you are taking away man's responsibility to obey God.

I agree the consequences of sin are death and that is made clear in choose life or death. My point is the Spirit of Christ is necessary to put away sin, that Love fulfills the law. It is irresponsible to teach that men are responsible when they have no Love that even cares how they affect others.

God obviously holds us accountable. Can you deny that?

There are two judgments, one for those under the law and one under the Christ and the criteria of judgment is applied accordingly. This does nothing to address
the issue of whether men are in control of themselves as the carnal mind reasons differently than the spiritual mind.

Put quite simply, Cain chose to disobey God. I see excuses being offered when God says there are none.

Cain was deceived, accuse and excuse to the tresspasses done to you, and Abel will deal with that which was done to him by his brother Cain. God will judge overall not me. I simply am pointing out the sequence of antecedent events that transpired and why. I don't see how I can carry my cross and say forgive them they know not what they do without excusing.

Again, God is stating the consequences of sin. Men can choose to obey which results in life, or they can choose to disobey which results in death. That is what is meant in that scripture...no more no less.

Well that does not get rid of sin now does it?

This is like having a discussion about why the earth doesn't fall out of the sky. There is nothing complicated about it. Man can come up with all kinds of excuses and motives, but sin is sin and we have to choose to commit sin or it isn't sin at all.

If you sin you sin, whether you chose to or not. That does not glorify the love of God that keeps man from being a sinner if we simply can conjure that Love by our will.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586224]You're doing a lot of mixing there.

Okay, man has his own will...that's called our free will.

This is where I have a problem. I am sure we have a will, this will however is not free if that will can will to do evil lest it be free from Love. And it cannot will to do good without Love. So exactly what is this will free from?

Even before we're saved, we have a conscience...do we not?

I cannot speak for all men but only myself. If you mean before we believe in Christ, yes I do.

A little voice pops into our head and says it's wrong to steal from your neighbor.

Actually when I stole I shoplifted, I had an overwhelming desire to possess those things. There was a voice reasoning why it was justified. But I knew it was wrong to steal.

We can choose to listen to that voice or not, correct?

I didn't choose to have the voice or desire to steal in the first place, and I cannot say I could choose not to follow it since I did. Many were the times I never felt like stealing. Why this time, I would call the voice of sin.

My conscience kicked in after I stole, to where I felt sick and those things I so badly wanted to have I did not even want or desire anymore. I threw them away. I was deceived into thinking they were necessary for my happiness.

Did that ever happen to you before you were saved?

As I desribed it.

Or, did you never hear that voice? Answer me please. Just that and nothing else.

I've given the answer as forthrightly as I can.

 

[Stormcrow]

Were Adam and Eve free to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if they wished to do so?

Are we tempted - in varying degrees - to do the same thing (disobey God?)

If so, must we sin simply because we are tempted?

If not, doesn't that imply the capacity for every human being to make moral choices based upon free will?

God gave man free will in the garden. He didn't revoke his free will card when he kicked him out of it.

 

[childeye]

=Stormcrow;586245]Were Adam and Eve free to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if they wished to do so?

A question laced in semantics and incomprehensible. For instance, were they free to wish to eat of the tree? They did not wish to because they believed it was death to them. Satan supplied the distrust necessary to disobey by subtly introducing a false image of god through subterfuge. This did not happen by men's will but they did Satan's will. Satan proposed there was a choice not God or Man.

Are we tempted - in varying degrees - to do the same thing (disobey God?)

Yes we are.

If so, must we sin simply because we are tempted?

A question that cannot be honestly answered no since we have all sinned. The temptation itself is not plausible when one has the knowledge of God.

If not, doesn't that imply the capacity for every human being to make moral choices based upon free will?

This is conjecture based upon a presumption. But clearly No it is not a freewill, as I said the temptation itself is not plausible with the knowledge of God. Hence a freewill is one that is unable to be tempted. And there are semantics at play here, for one can be subjected to a temptor but yet not be tempted. So he can be tempted yet not tempted.

God gave man free will in the garden. He didn't revoke his free will card when he kicked him out of it.

And so you come to the conclusion that because Adam was tempted and he was able to overcome this temptation he has a freewill? But he didn't overcome this temptation and neither have you if you've sinned...so where is this freewill card God gave you? Is not the Christ our freewill card? The knowledge that makes temptation implausible.

 

[glorydaz]

My point is the Spirit of Christ is necessary to put away sin, that Love fulfills the law. It is irresponsible to teach that men are responsible when they have no Love that even cares how they affect others.

God is "irresponsible," then, when He says man is without excuse? You'd best rethink that.

This does nothing to address the issue of whether men are in control of themselves as the carnal mind reasons differently than the spiritual mind.

Each man has only one mind. It either minds the things of the flesh or the things of the spirit.
That means we either follow after the flesh or we follow after God.

The reasoning of man does not change. We either do the works of the flesh, or we are led by the Spirit.

Cain was deceived, accuse and excuse to the tresspasses done to you, and Abel will deal with that which was done to him by his brother Cain. God will judge overall not me. I simply am pointing out the sequence of antecedent events that transpired and why. I don't see how I can carry my cross and say forgive them they know not what they do without excusing.

In the first place. Jesus did not mean "they" were incapable of knowing what they did. All men were responsible for Jesus being nailed to the cross. Jesus was voicing what he was doing...forgiving our sins. His death is what reconciled men to God.

Secondly, nowhere will you find that Cain was deceived...unless, perchance, you think God deceived him.

And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

If you sin you sin, whether you chose to or not. That does not glorify the love of God that keeps man from being a sinner if we simply can conjure that Love by our will.

People always choose to sin or it wouldn't be sin.
Love has nothing to do with sin. Sin is a transgression of God's Law.

 

[glorydaz]

Were Adam and Eve free to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if they wished to do so?

Are we tempted - in varying degrees - to do the same thing (disobey God?)

If so, must we sin simply because we are tempted?

If not, doesn't that imply the capacity for every human being to make moral choices based upon free will?

God gave man free will in the garden. He didn't revoke his free will card when he kicked him out of it.

AMEN...well stated.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually when I stole I shoplifted, I had an overwhelming desire to possess those things. There was a voice reasoning why it was justified. But I knew it was wrong to steal.

I didn't choose to have the voice or desire to steal in the first place, and I cannot say I could choose not to follow it since I did. Many were the times I never felt like stealing. Why this time, I would call the voice of sin.

Great, you knew it was wrong to steal. That was your God-given conscience, correct?

An overwhelming desire to possess those things...the lust of the eyes.

You didn't choose to have the voice because it was placed there by God.

You chose to go ahead and steal. That's sin.

There you go, the classic story of free will and walking after the flesh.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586250]God is "irresponsible," then, when He says man is without excuse? You'd best rethink that.

God is saying there is no excuse for vanity. You'd better take this up with Jesus and ask why he would forgive those who crucified saying "forgive them Father they know not what they do". This is the very reason why I believe in Jesus as the Christ and why I must pick up my cross and your words are discouraging toward that end.

Each man has only one mind. It either minds the things of the flesh or the things of the spirit.
That means we either follow after the flesh or we follow after God.

Yes that make more sense than we follow nobody and are free in our wills.

The reasoning of man does not change.

This is not true. Because carnal values are not the same as Godly values. Therefore as success is defined differently the mind reasons accordingly.

In the first place. Jesus did not mean "they" were incapable of knowing what they did.

He said they know not what they do...why say it doesn't mean they were not capable? They certainly were not capable at the time or Jesus doesn't know what he's talking about.

All men were responsible for Jesus being nailed to the cross.

If this is true then why does Paul write that how you regard the bread and wine shows whether you are guilty of crucifying the Christ? After all if we are all guilty he would not have said this.

Jesus was voicing what he was doing...forgiving our sins. His death is what reconciled men to God.

I don't think you understand how this reconciliation works by what you've said.

Secondly, nowhere will you find that Cain was deceived...unless, perchance, you think God deceived him.

I know he was deceived. He made his offering for the sake of his own vanity not for the sake of Him whom he was offering it to. For he took it personally when it was rejected. If it was about the pleasing of the recipient he was concerned, then he would have withdrew his offering and tried again with something else. He at least would have rejoiced that his brother had pleased God so long as God was pleased. So you could say Cain felt he was going to be judged by his offering and what he chose to give, rather than giving from a pure heart with a pure motive. Very much like freewill is always about the person choosing and not the motives of a pure Love without vanity.

People always choose to sin or it wouldn't be sin.
Love has nothing to do with sin. Sin is a transgression of God's Law.

As Godly Love instead of love for himself would have changed the attitude of Cain and sin would have had no power, likewise walking in the Love of God prevents sin. That is why Paul says that if we follow after the eternal spirit we will not sin. Sin therefore happens where there is no Love, and that is why Love fulfills the law. What you are saying is contrary to scripture. Show me anywhere where lack of Love doesn't matter concerning sin. For these are the great commandments of the law of Christ. Love your neighbor as yourself and Love God with all your heart mind and soul. He commands us to love Love.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586253]Great, you knew it was wrong to steal. That was your God-given conscience, correct?

No, it was the commandment of the letter thou shalt not steal.

An overwhelming desire to possess those things...the lust of the eyes.

A deceitful lust, yes.

You didn't choose to have the voice because it was placed there by God.

I didn't choose to have the voice or desire to steal in the first place, and I cannot say I could choose not to follow it since I did.

If you're refering to the above statement; No, this voice was not God. God would not tell me to steal.

You chose to go ahead and steal. That's sin.

Yes I know this.

There you go, the classic story of free will and walking after the flesh.

Actually the definition of freewill is not exemplified here. This is the problem, you define freewill as choosing, and this is important. This is not any choice but a choice between good and evil. I am fully familiar with this line of reasoning which freewill is based upon and is why I don't believe in it, for it is vanity.

After I received the Christ and I was instructed through the Holy Spirit, He showed me the lies that temptation depends upon and how righteousness was a gift that was the product of believing in the True Image of God, not a choice. It is a seeing of the Truth of God. Hence he showed me why vanity exists and how it creates iniquity and sin. So the cross was necessary to defeat the accuser of mankind in heaven, expose vanity and Glorify God as the Spirit that makes a man righteous. So it is that the only freewill I can see is one who knows the truth and Loves out of purity knowing it is God inside him that moves a man to choose righteously.

 

[glorydaz]

God is saying there is no excuse for vanity. You'd better take this up with Jesus and ask why he would forgive those who crucified saying "forgive them Father they know not what they do". This is the very reason why I believe in Jesus as the Christ and why I must pick up my cross and your words are discouraging toward that end.


Yes that make more sense than we follow nobody and are free in our wills.

This is not true. Because carnal values are not the same as Godly values. Therefore as success is defined differently the mind reasons accordingly.




He said they know not what they do...why say it doesn't mean they were not capable? They certainly were not capable at the time or Jesus doesn't know what he's talking about.

If this is true then why does Paul write that how you regard the bread and wine shows whether you are guilty of crucifying the Christ? After all if we are all guilty he would not have said this.

I don't think you understand how this reconciliation works by what you've said.


I know he was deceived. He made his offering for the sake of his own vanity not for the sake of Him whom he was offering it to. For he took it personally when it was rejected. If it was about the pleasing of the recipient he was concerned, then he would have withdrew his offering and tried again with something else. He at least would have rejoiced that his brother had pleased God so long as God was pleased. So you could say Cain felt he was going to be judged by his offering and what he chose to give, rather than giving from a pure heart with a pure motive. Very much like freewill is always about the person choosing and not the motives of a pure Love without vanity.


As Godly Love instead of love for himself would have changed the attitude of Cain and sin would have no power, likewise walking in the Love of God prevents sin. That is why Paul says that if we follow after the eternal spirit we will not sin. Sin therefore happens where there is no Love, and that is why Love fulfills the law. What you are saying is contrary to scripture. Show me anywhere where lack of Love doesn't matter concerning sin. For these are the great commandments of the law of Christ. Love your neighbor as yourself and Love God with all your heart mind and soul. He commands us to love Love.

I don't believe you're ready to hear anything but your own voice.
You need to support some of your thinking with scripture.

If you say I don't understand reconciliation...don't just say that, support it with Scripture. I can, and I have.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586266]I don't believe you're ready to hear anything but your own voice.

What have I said that is not true?

You need to support some of your thinking with scripture.

Please elaborate which things I am thinking I need to support.

If you say I don't understand reconciliation...don't just say that, support it with Scripture. I can, and I have.

I havn't seen any scripture you have provided that describe your understanding of how reconciliation works. Nor do I know your position for certain. It's just that things you say seem to reveal that you do not understand what men did wrong, so I don't see how you would know what to say we're sorry for so that there be reconciliation.

Mine is simple, one is presented with the true Image of God and if one believes in him he is right before God. That image being of a Christ sent by God as a man who suffers a cross and forgives those who crucify him saying "forgive them they know not what they do". As the Roman soldier said after Jesus uttered those words, "surely this is the son of God".

For the fault of man and the enmity between man and God is that mankind held a false image of God and turned the Truth of God into a lie. Hence men slandered God by believing He was like corruptible men and held the truth in unrighteousness not in righteousness. Romans 1:18-32.

Anyway if a man believes that this Christ is the character of God, his reasoning is changed as to what righteousness is accordingly, Romans 1:17. So to be righetous, I must have the same faith as Christ and bear my cross and forgive those who tresspass against me even as I seek forgiveness for my tresspasses. I trust you know the Lords prayer. Those who never meant to sin understand, those who meant to sin cannot for darkness cannot comprehend the light. That is my personal observation. Need I give you scripture for this? You already know the scriptures that say all of this.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Were Adam and Eve free to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if they wished to do so?

Are we tempted - in varying degrees - to do the same thing (disobey God?)

If so, must we sin simply because we are tempted?

If not, doesn't that imply the capacity for every human being to make moral choices based upon free will?

God gave man free will in the garden. He didn't revoke his free will card when he kicked him out of it.

AMEN!!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

AMEN!!!!

Childeye, It's OK to speculate sometimes and even imagine. The Bible however says in, Proverbs 3:5---" Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." For the most part we must go by what the Scriptures say and follow it's advise...

 

[childeye]

Childeye, It's OK to speculate sometimes and even imagine. The Bible however says in, Proverbs 3:5---" Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." For the most part we must go by what the Scriptures say and follow it's advise...

I agree. Is there some speculation I have said that you find troublesome or unscriptural? I don't really feel I have speculated anything. I establish all Truth on a simple premise, that God is eternal Love, and that Love can be seen at the cross of His Christ..

 

[glorydaz]

What have I said that is not true?

Please elaborate which things I am thinking I need to support.



Mine is simple, one is presented with the true Image of God and if one believes in him he is right before God. That image being of a Christ sent by God as a man who suffers a cross and forgives those who crucify him saying "forgive them they know not what they do". As the Roman soldier said after Jesus uttered those words, "surely this is the son of God".

For the fault of man and the enmity between man and God is that mankind held a false image of God and turned the Truth of God into a lie. Hence men slandered God by believing He was like corruptible men and held the truth in unrighteousness not in righteousness. Romans 1:18-32.

Here's a perfect example. You keep saying man has a false image of God and you even quote part of Rom. 1.

That "false image of God" you keep referring to is nothing more than the idols the people were making, as you can see here...

Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

Paul is talking about when they set up idols like the golden calf. Surely you don't think that means mankind has a false image of God.............do you?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I agree. Is there some speculation I have said that you find troublesome or unscriptural? I don't really feel I have speculated anything. I establish all Truth on a simple premise, that God is eternal Love, and that Love can be seen at the cross of His Christ..

What bothers me about you is, you've made it "quite" clear in previous posts that you haven't the "foggiest" notion where you stand before God. You don't "know" if your even saved and yet you "attempt" to speak of "deep issues" involving things, your not sure your even a part of???

 

[Stormcrow]

And so you come to the conclusion that because Adam was tempted and he was able to overcome this temptation he has a freewill?

You misunderstood my point entirely. But thanks anyway.

The point of this little thought exercise was to provide the basis for understanding free will. Let me do it for you:

Were Adam and Eve free to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if they wished to do so?

Yes, obviously. God told them not to but did not block their access to it (as He did to the tree of Life.) They were free to disobey if they chose to do so.

Are we tempted - in varying degrees - to do the same thing (disobey God?)

Yes, obviously.

If so, must we sin simply because we are tempted?

No, of course not. We are free to choose whether we sin or not and suffer the consequences of our decisions if we do, just as Adam and Eve did. Pretty basic stuff, huh?

If not, doesn't that imply the capacity for every human being to make moral choices based upon free will?

Of course it does! Every single human being of sound mind has the capacity to make moral choices based upon his or her own free will, just as Adam and Eve did.

God gave man free will in the garden. He didn't revoke his free will card when he kicked him out of it.

While atheists won't acknowledge the validity of man's fall from intimate fellowship with God, even they recognize the capacity of human beings to make moral choices based upon reason and will.

"I will" is the expression of "my will" over "Thy will." God will not violate my will simply because I choose to sin. But He will not protect us from the consequences of our choices, either.

Did the father stop the prodigal son from leaving home?

Think about it.