Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[Grubal Muruch]

You misunderstood my point entirely. But thanks anyway.

The point of this little thought exercise was to provide the basis for understanding free will. Let me do it for you:



Yes, obviously. God told them not to but did not block their access to it (as He did to the tree of Life.) They were free to disobey if they chose to do so.



Yes, obviously.



No, of course not. We are free to choose whether we sin or not and suffer the consequences of our decisions if we do, just as Adam and Eve did. Pretty basic stuff, huh?



Of course it does! Every single human being of sound mind has the capacity to make moral choices based upon his or her own free will, just as Adam and Eve did.



While atheists won't acknowledge the validity of man's fall from intimate fellowship with God, even they recognize the capacity of human beings to make moral choices based upon reason and will.

"I will" is the expression of "my will" over "Thy will." God will not violate my will simply because I choose to sin. But He will not protect us from the consequences of our choices, either.

Did the father stop the prodigal son from leaving home?

Think about it.

It's SO simple, but some, make it SO difficult!!! Great post...

 

[Gazelle]

=Stormcrow;586245]Were Adam and Eve free to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if they wished to do so?

childeye: A question laced in semantics and incomprehensible. For instance, were they free to wish to eat of the tree? They did not wish to because they believed it was death to them. Satan supplied the distrust necessary to disobey by subtly introducing a false image of god through subterfuge. This did not happen by men's will but they did Satan's will. Satan proposed there was a choice not God or Man.

I believe you when you say you can't comprehend this. Have you asked yourself why not, instead of dismissing so many wise presentations given you in this thread?

Now, here's still another flaw in your thinking:

If Adam and Eve did not have their own free will, why did God instruct them?
If this is merely a battle between satan and God, and we are being used as pawns like on a chess game, well, that is a dangerous position for you to take. God specifically forbade Adam(s) from eating of that tree. If that was truly God's will, wouldn't He have prevented them from doing so, if they had no free will?

There was no sin before the serpent deceived them, remember, so their will would be GOD's will in the way you are presenting your argument. So why did God make them eat of the fruit He forbade them? Are you then saying that satan is stronger than God? Are you saying God is capricious, or a liar?

God walked and fellowshipped with them in the garden, proving they had no sin.

You see, you are harboring on dangerous ground. Your arguments against the Word of God may not be this free will issue at all, but YOUR free will.

Under what will are you posting these (weak) arguments--satan's or God's? It's obvious to me (imo) that they it isn't God's because you are unable to understand what is being said to you from Scripture. So now, under your own basic platform, you are either unable to prevent your posting --being under the power of satan, or you are using your own free will to argue.

 

[Jam]

Could someone (preferably the op; Grubal) please define "free will".

Perception of choice and will in no way necessites the aspect of freedom usually associated with/implied by the term "free will".

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I believe you when you say you can't comprehend this. Have you asked yourself why not, instead of dismissing so many wise presentations given you in this thread?

Now, here's still another flaw in your thinking:

If Adam and Eve did not have their own free will, why did God instruct them?
If this is merely a battle between satan and God, and we are being used as pawns like on a chess game, well, that is a dangerous position for you to take. God specifically forbade Adam(s) from eating of that tree. If that was truly God's will, wouldn't He have prevented them from doing so, if they had no free will?

There was no sin before the serpent deceived them, remember, so their will would be GOD's will in the way you are presenting your argument. So why did God make them eat of the fruit He forbade them? Are you then saying that satan is stronger than God? Are you saying God is capricious, or a liar?

God walked and fellowshipped with them in the garden, proving they had no sin.

You see, you are harboring on dangerous ground. Your arguments against the Word of God may not be this free will issue at all, but YOUR free will.

Under what will are you posting these (weak) arguments--satan's or God's? It's obvious to me (imo) that they it isn't God's because you are unable to understand what is being said to you from Scripture. So now, under your own basic platform, you are either unable to prevent your posting --being under the power of satan, or you are using your own free will to argue.

Good logic...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Could someone (preferably the op; Grubal) please define "free will".

Perception of choice and will in no way necessites the aspect of freedom usually associated with/implied by the term "free will".

Yes. Freewill is the ability to choose what you will believe in, without the control of an outside source...

 

[Jam]

Yes. Freewill is the ability to choose what you will believe in, without the control of an outside source...

Is that not a logical impossibility, given that we, as individuals, all came about entirely as the result of "outside" sources?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Is that not a logical impossibility, given that we, as individuals, all came about entirely as the result of "outside" sources?

Be that as it may, however, that "source" (being God) created ALL with a free-will...

 

[glorydaz]

Yes. Freewill is the ability to choose what you will believe in, without the control of an outside source...

By giving man a freewill, God places the ball in our court and tells us to "Choose life".

Certainly neither satan, nor the world, nor sin, nor the flesh can take away what God has given....man's ability to choose. Thus man has no excuse for not believing in Him.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

By giving man a freewill, God places the ball in our court and tells us to "Choose life".

Certainly neither satan, nor the world, nor sin, nor the flesh can take away what God has given....man's ability to choose. Thus man has no excuse for not believing in Him.

AMEN!!!

 

[Gazelle]

Yes. Freewill is the ability to choose what you will believe in, without the control of an outside source...

Exactly. If I may be so bold to post a few more, for those who want to consider it more deeply?

free will n. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free+will
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice chose to remain behind of my own free will.)
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

free will n.
1. (Philosophy)
a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
b. the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory Compare determinism
c. (as modifier) a free-will decision
2. the ability to make a choice without coercion he left of his own free will I did not influence him)

Thesaurus:
Noun 1. free will - the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies
discretion
power, powerfulness - possession of controlling influence; "the deterrent power of nuclear weapons"; "the power of his love saved her"; "his powerfulness was concealed by a gentle facade"
self-determination - determination of one's own fate or course of action without compulsion


The choices themselves may be determined by God (I believe this way).
The choices made are morally determined by one’s nature

"God never coerces man’s will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit." (Theopedia)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Exactly. If I may be so bold to post a few more, for those who want to consider it more deeply?

free will n. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free+will
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice chose to remain behind of my own free will.)
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

free will n.
1. (Philosophy)
a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
b. the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory Compare determinism
c. (as modifier) a free-will decision
2. the ability to make a choice without coercion he left of his own free will I did not influence him)

Thesaurus:
Noun 1. free will - the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies
discretion
power, powerfulness - possession of controlling influence; "the deterrent power of nuclear weapons"; "the power of his love saved her"; "his powerfulness was concealed by a gentle facade"
self-determination - determination of one's own fate or course of action without compulsion


The choices themselves may be determined by God (I believe this way).
The choices made are morally determined by one’s nature

"God never coerces man’s will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit." (Theopedia)

AMEN, Excellent additions...

 

[Jam]

Certainly neither satan, nor the world, nor sin, nor the flesh can take away what God has given....man's ability to choose. Thus man has no excuse for not believing in Him.

An ability to choose, however, would not be free will by Grubal's definition if the choices made were affected by external entities and ideas... which choices invariably are. Obviously none of us believe that we have absolute free will - our actions are always affected significantly by external things - but the question is the extent to which our will is free. I believe that every choice we make is necessarily influenced entirely by external sources (God included), and so free will (as defined by Grubal) cannot exist.

Be that as it may, however, that "source" (being God) created ALL with a free-will...

So are you saying that God can do the logically impossible? I'm almost unconvinced that there is any scriptural evidence even indirectly citing the existence of free will.

 

[Gazelle]

I posted earlier:

That makes me curious. It's interesting because why would someone who had no free will prior to that, then have free will after they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God. Wouldn't that preclude any of man's will at that point, if that premise is true?

You posted in reply:

The Holy Spirit changes the will from the Old man to the New man. I'm not sure what you mean by this phenomenon precluding any of man's will. Could you rephrase?

I went to bed and missed replying. ;)
You had said that man has no free will of his own prior to accepting Christ, that he is under the will of satan. You then also said continuing that thought, that man receives free will after he accepts Christ.

What I'm asking is of all times to have free will, why would it be AFTER a person has the indwelling of God Himself in the form of the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't that be the guiding force for having God's will, and not our own free will then?

 

[Gazelle]

Light said:

An ability to choose, however, would not be free will by Grubal's definition if the choices made were affected by external entities and ideas... which choices invariably are. Obviously none of us believe that we have absolute free will - our actions are always affected significantly by external things - but the question is the extent to which our will is free. I believe that every choice we make is necessarily influenced entirely by external sources (God included), and so free will (as defined by Grubal) cannot exist.

I think it's important to not confuse external elements that may be considered when making a choice, versus the act of coercion or force and removal of the ability to choose whichever way you wish. ;)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

An ability to choose, however, would not be free will by Grubal's definition if the choices made were affected by external entities and ideas... which choices invariably are. Obviously none of us believe that we have absolute free will - our actions are always affected significantly by external things - but the question is the extent to which our will is free. I believe that every choice we make is necessarily influenced entirely by external sources (God included), and so free will (as defined by Grubal) cannot exist.





So are you saying that God can do the logically impossible? I'm almost unconvinced that there is any scriptural evidence even indirectly citing the existence of free will.

light----An ability to choose, however, would not be free will by Grubal's definition if the choices made were affected by external entities and ideas

Grubal-----I'm afraid you don't understand what I was saying. Our free choice will, is NOT controlled by an outside source, but is an "inborn" part of our creation...

 

[Jam]

Light said:

I think it's important to not confuse external elements that may be considered when making a choice, versus the act of coercion or force and removal of the ability to choose whichever way you wish. ;)

This is purely hypothetical, but are you really exercising free will when you do something that you wish to do, if it was not your decision in the first place to wish to do said thing?


If we step back from our personal understanding of reality for a second, I think we can see more clearly. Things (including decisions/choices) are either caused or uncaused. If our decisions are caused, then they are not free. If they are not caused, then they are necessarily probablistic. Probabilities are not within our control, and so uncaused decisions cannot be considered exercises of free will either.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

An ability to choose, however, would not be free will by Grubal's definition if the choices made were affected by external entities and ideas... which choices invariably are. Obviously none of us believe that we have absolute free will - our actions are always affected significantly by external things - but the question is the extent to which our will is free. I believe that every choice we make is necessarily influenced entirely by external sources (God included), and so free will (as defined by Grubal) cannot exist.





So are you saying that God can do the logically impossible? I'm almost unconvinced that there is any scriptural evidence even indirectly citing the existence of free will.

Our will is "utterly" our own. Why would you be so bold to say, " I'm almost unconvinced that there is any scriptural evidence even indirectly citing the existence of free will. There are "proofs" throughout the "entire" Bible...

 

[Jam]

I'm afraid you don't understand what I was saying. Our free choice will, is NOT controlled by an outside source, but is an "inborn" part of our creation...

From whence cometh this inborn nature? Something/somewhere external, presumably (lol), given that we did not exist prior to our own creation.

 

[Jam]

Why would you be so bold to say, " I'm almost unconvinced that there is any scriptural evidence even indirectly citing the existence of free will. There are "proofs" throughout the "entire" Bible...

Because I see no reason to believe that it is so. Can you cite me some of these irrefutable "proofs"?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

From whence cometh this inborn nature? Something/somewhere external, presumably (lol), given that we did not exist prior to our own creation.

Dear friend, God created ALL men with free will...We come into this worlds existence with free-will...