Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[glorydaz]

So Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit and so he was without sin and unblemished, yet he was in a world of sin. Are all men then capable of not sinning? Only through the same Spirit that dwells in the Christ. For he came in the likeness of sinful flesh so as to condemn sin in the flesh.

Jesus had a divine nature and a human nature. Human nature is capable of sin, but Divine nature is not.
No man except Jesus has had two natures, thus he is the only one who was able to resist all temptations.

 

[glorydaz]

By the way, the capacity to make an immoral choice implies the capacity to make a moral choice. The very idea that we know something is wrong implies we have a sense of what right is. Therefore, implicit in this idea of "immoral" is a standard against which such behavior is measured. That standard is what we call "morality."

Therefore, the ability to choose between right and wrong is that which separates us from the animals and is what we call "free will."

I really don't understand how this can be so complicated for some people.

Nor do I, Stormcrow.

 

[Gazelle]

I don't provide blanket coverage under Grace for the presence of evil within mankind. Sorry. It's just a lot more of an interesting subject than freewillers seem to be able to come to grips with.

Smaller, so then since you have engaged me in this conversation you feel I am acceptable enough to come to grips with your position? I don't find such inuendo es about the lack brain use capacity to be helpful myself.

Do you study Greek at all? You might enjoy even something like Matthew Henry's Commentary. English is difficult at best to understand and I find referring back to what is considered the original language often clarifies things.

Paul admitted he had a DEVIL.

No, Paul was talking about being oppressed by the devil or a demon, not possessed. This is a very clear delineation in theology. Christians cannot be possessed by satan as they have the Holy Spirit--God Himself dwelling within them. They can, however, as many are sharing here about external forces, be oppressed by evil. This is part of what Paul is discussing.

Paul also talks about his thorn in the flesh, that being of what we think was a vision problem (possibly caused by his seeing Christ on the road to Damascus?) His affliction was so bad he had to have a physician (Luke) travel with him. Again, while a miserable element with which to contend, it was not the devil possessing him. He did not "have" a devil, in the English word sort of way.

We are all in agreement here I think when we say that the devil was never under grace. He couldn't have been in the first place because he was an angel, and had no sin. His rebellion is never categorized as sin, however that could be another good topic thread somewhere. ;) Sin came into being when humans rebelled against God. (Funny how satan just happened to be there? ;) )

Can you clarify what you mean--say in different words-- your statement about "blanket coverage under Grace for the presence of evil within mankind" as I haven't come across that before and I'm a bit foggy today. Thanks!

 

[Gazelle]

Quote Originally Posted by Gazelle View Post
I was building on other information in the thread. You are trying to make some distinction between will and free wiil. I merely posted the going defs of will since the defs of free will have already been posted.

What you missed was the idea connected to the words of coercion and or force by any non internal elements.

Wait wait... so now we're saying that a will is still free if it is caused by external factors, as long as these external factors do not use "force" or "coercion"? If that's how you're going to define it then fine; "free will" exists. But so do flying unicorns if I define "flying unicorn" as a pencil with a rubber on top... we haven't really demonstrated anything.

How can a man make any decision totally devoid of influence? The very nature of man would encompass that his ability to make choices is not contingent upon having various influences from one source or another. Otherwise, he would not be a man(woman).

Let's put this aspect to rest, can we?
I am talking about "free will". That ability to make a choice based upon whatever influences he so wishes to engage or encounters yet not being forced nor coerced by anyone or anything and surely not a false choice predesignated by God.

 

[glorydaz]

You are lost in semantics. For instance choices exist without any man reasoning. Just being alive is constant choices simply because we must be doing something at all times. If I close my eyes to sleep or choose to get up, or choose to scratch my head or choose not to, but if I havn't chosen to go to bed I must stay awake and if I have chosen not to eat ot eat it is because I have hunger that requires I choose and yet if I have nothing to eat I cannot choose to eat. So what all of life is a constant choice. That is the consequences oif simpl having a will and being sentient. All animals do this. But a moral will needs God just as we need food to live. We do not choose this by our freewill it is a fact we must accommodate our wills around so as to continue being sentient.

Stormcrow isn't the one lost in semantics. Animals don't have a freewill... that's what makes us different. They scratch when they itch, and eat when they're hungry. You're claiming we're no more than an animal.

Speaking of moral choices, that's exactly why God gave us a freewill. We must choose to do good or evil...obey or disobey. Anything short of that is taking away man's responsibility to obey God. I see so many excuses being made for man, and God says there are none.

 

[Gazelle]

And we are told to :

NASB (©1995) Jude 1:23,,,
save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh

That sounds pretty urgent to me.

You can preach to people all the day. IF God does not allow them to hear they will remain UNbelievers and the 'god of this world' remains in control upon THEIR MINDS, keeping them from hearing.

That is 'why' people do not believe. And it is by Gods Sole Choice as to 'who hears' in this present life.

I perceive you may be hyper Calvinistic?? There's no problem with this with me, I'm just wondering.
I believe this as you, that unless the Holy Spirit convicts, one cannot come to God. However, this does not preclude man's free will to reject Christ's redeeming work on the cross, imo

 

[childeye]

Jesus had a divine nature and a human nature. Human nature is capable of sin, but Divine nature is not.
No man except Jesus has had two natures, thus he is the only one who was able to resist all temptations.

glorydaz I would say Jesus is the perfect Image of God given to man and the perfect image of man given to God. I do not see two natures in Christ, but the end of enmity between God nad man because they both agree here. So the fact is, there are elements in both heaven and on earth that must be destroyed by agreeing at the cross.
Try to parse these semantics; Jesus was tempted yet he was never tempted.

 

[glorydaz]

If it is not external, then it will necessarily rely upon something else either external or not. We could keep on looking after causes of things until we reach entirely external factors - given that we have not existed forever, all causal paths will eventually lead to external factors.

There's the flaw in your argument in red. Man has not existed forever, but God has, and His ways are written in the heart of man...."clearly seen" by man as Rom. 1 points out.

God has created us with the capacity to know right from wrong by instilling us with a conscience whereby we know God. Man's choice of whether to heed that or not comes from within his own heart.

Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

The very things that a man does and says come directly from man's own heart.

For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586834]Stormcrow isn't the one lost in semantics. Animals don't have a freewill... that's what makes us different. They scratch when they itch, and eat when they're hungry. You're claiming we're no more than an animal.

We like sheep have all gone astray. The ox knows his masters voice but Israel does not know. God rebuked Ballam with the voice coming from an ass. Dogs know love too. The same demons that were in a man were sent into pigs and they all ran off a cliff. The term soul means that which breathes with life, and the word nephesh meaning soul is the equivalent of animal.

Anything short of that is taking away man's responsibility to obey God. I see so many excuses being made for man, and God says there are none.

I'm sorry glorydaz, but you keep going back to the vanity of Romans one claiming that men are responsible for they knew God but did not esteem God as God. No one denies that God was taken for granted. I wholeheartedly shout it out in my raising attention to this vanity.

Your comments reminds me of the brother of the prodigal son who stayed with the Father and resented the Love of the Father giving the repentant son the best robe in the house and slaughtering the fatted calf for the return of the son that was once dead but now forgiven.

 

[smaller]

I perceive you may be hyper Calvinistic?? There's no problem with this with me, I'm just wondering.
I believe this as you, that unless the Holy Spirit convicts, one cannot come to God. However, this does not preclude man's free will to reject Christ's redeeming work on the cross, imo

The instant you rightfully acknowledge that there is a BLINDING WILL operational within the BLIND WILL that is not the will of the blind you would see 'why' freewill is futile.

All freewill theories logically have to have that BLINDED WILL functional apart from the BLINDING WILL and that is simply not the case.

It is by the sowing of the Word 'in man' that brings the WILL OF THE THIEF into that persons heart, resisting the Word of God 'in them.' Blind people don't know they have another 'will' operational in them.

I would also extend that fact to 'believers' as well, as they also 'falsely' think it is only 'their will' in operation within them, but the insertion of temptation thoughts by the TEMPTER proves another WILL operational IN the WILL believer.

You can claim personal exemption, but I don't buy it from a scriptural perspective. There is a 'sinning will' in everyone that is of the TEMPTER and ALL SIN....all SIN is of the devil unless you care to eliminate 1 John 3:8.

No one is righteous...Why? Because the WILL of the TEMPTER is also within them.

No one seeks...WHY? Because ALL are prior to belief BLINDED by the WILL of the TEMPTER.

And ALL SIN because ALL WILLS are subject to the WILL of the TEMPTER operational 'in all.'

There was only one exemption, God Himself in Flesh, Jesus Christ in whom Satan, the prince of this world had nothing.

Saul was A BLINDED WILL until God removed THE WILL of the BLINDER from him in order for Paul to see. So it is with everyone who is allowed to see. The BLINDING WILL OF SATAN is REMOVED from covering their MINDS.

Any who have the WILL of the BLINDER removed from their MINDS will see and hear and believe.

If they don't believe you claim it the will of the MAN alone, but that takes ZERO account for the WILL of the BLINDING WILL that is not theirs and that makes no sense whatsoever when THE BLINDING WILL is clearly operational in BLINDING THEM.

I would go further and say 'believers' who do not see and account for THE BLINDING WILL in their fellow man are and remain somewhat blinded to that fact themselves, particularly when they blame BLIND unbelievers and IGNORE the CAUSE, the DEVIL who blinds them.

ALL sinners are BLINDED by the DEVIL in their minds when they SIN and are PAWNS of same when they sin in THOUGHT, WORD or DEED.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
A servant of SIN has a MASTER of SIN. That is SATAN.

enjoy!

s

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The instant you rightfully acknowledge that there is a BLINDING WILL operational within the BLIND WILL that is not the will of the blind you would see 'why' freewill is futile.

All freewill theories logically have to have that BLINDED WILL functional apart from the BLINDING WILL and that is simply not the case.

It is by the sowing of the Word 'in man' that brings the WILL OF THE THIEF into that persons heart, resisting the Word of God 'in them.' Blind people don't know they have another 'will' operational in them.

I would also extend that fact to 'believers' as well, as they also 'falsely' think it is only 'their will' in operation within them, but the insertion of temptation thoughts by the TEMPTER proves another WILL operational IN the WILL believer.

You can claim personal exemption, but I don't buy it from a scriptural perspective. There is a 'sinning will' in everyone that is of the TEMPTER and ALL SIN....all SIN is of the devil unless you care to eliminate 1 John 3:8.

No one is righteous...Why? Because the WILL of the TEMPTER is also within them.

No one seeks...WHY? Because ALL are prior to belief BLINDED by the WILL of the TEMPTER.

And ALL SIN because ALL WILLS are subject to the WILL of the TEMPTER operational 'in all.'

There was only one exemption, God Himself in Flesh, Jesus Christ in whom Satan, the prince of this world had nothing.

Saul was A BLINDED WILL until God removed THE WILL of the BLINDER from him in order for Paul to see. So it is with everyone who is allowed to see. The BLINDING WILL OF SATAN is REMOVED from covering their MINDS.

Any who have the WILL of the BLINDER removed from their MINDS will see and hear and believe.

If they don't believe you claim it the will of the MAN alone, but that takes ZERO account for the WILL of the BLINDING WILL that is not theirs and that makes no sense whatsoever when THE BLINDING WILL is clearly operational in BLINDING THEM.

I would go further and say 'believers' who do not see and account for THE BLINDING WILL in their fellow man are and remain somewhat blinded to that fact themselves, particularly when they blame BLIND unbelievers and IGNORE the CAUSE, the DEVIL who blinds them.

ALL sinners are BLINDED by the DEVIL in their minds when they SIN and are PAWNS of same when they sin in THOUGHT, WORD or DEED.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
A servant of SIN has a MASTER of SIN. That is SATAN.

enjoy!

s

smaller says-----No one seeks...WHY? Because ALL are prior to belief BLINDED by the WILL of the TEMPTER.

Grubal -----Matthew 7:7 states, "Ask, and it shall be given you; "SEEK", and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Seek is something that happens BEFORE you find...We first "hear" the word, the Spirit convicts and we follow up (seek after) by placing our faith...

 

[glorydaz]

We like sheep have all gone astray. The ox knows his masters voice but Israel does not know. God rebuked Ballam with the voice coming from an ass. Dogs know love too. The same demons that were in a man were sent into pigs and they all ran off a cliff. The term soul means that which breathes with life, and the word nephesh meaning soul is the equivalent of animal.

What are you talking about? Are you saying man is no different from the animals. Why is man given dominion over animals if that's the case? Do animals have a conscience that tells them not to eat their young?

I'm sorry glorydaz, but you keep going back to the vanity of Romans one claiming that men are responsible for they knew God but did not esteem God as God. No one denies that God was taken for granted. I wholeheartedly shout it out in my raising attention to this vanity.

Your comments reminds me of the brother of the prodigal son who stayed with the Father and resented the Love of the Father giving the repentant son the best robe in the house and slaughtering the fatted calf for the return of the son that was once dead but now forgiven.

The vanity of Romans 1? What are you talking about, Childeye? The general condition of mankind is described in Romans 1...all are given a conscience. Are you saying all men fit into that description of those who worshipped idols? If you read the word, you'll see Abel, Noah, Abraham, Enoch, Eli, David, Moses, and on and on...it's a generalization. You do know about generalizations, don't you?

 

[Gazelle]

The instant you rightfully acknowledge that there is a BLINDING WILL operational within the BLIND WILL that is not the will of the blind you would see 'why' freewill is futile.

So then, if I follow you correctly, you believe that the blind will supercedes the intellect and is simply our evolutionary mechanism for survival? That there is no hope for anything but the influence of evil, such as by satan? ...that we have no choice in the matter because of this simple matter of surviving and evolving?

 

[glorydaz]

It is not my 'personal belief' that the interactions of devils with mankind are on nearly every page of the New Testament.

Too much power to satan? Satan has no more power than what God has given to him, that being 'the god of this world.' That might seem a bit powerful to some more than others.

Satan is in charge of this world system and provides plenty of temptation, but if you believe satan has any real power, then you're just believing one of his lies. Satan isn't omni-anything.

You are certainly welcome to overlook the fact that our UNbelieving fellow man are being blinded in mind by the god of this world and instead only BLAME mankind for their 'lack' of freewill decision making abilities so you can justify condemning their not being able to make an affirmative decision and 'activate' God in their behalves 'before their offer expires' and the coupons lapse.

Satan doesn't have to mess with unbelievers because he's preaching to the choir. He blinds them by providing occasions for the flesh in this world system...lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Those all come from the world.

The Light of the Gospel of Christ is far brighter than anything else, and when it finds an unsaved man whose heart has been softened (the good ground), then he will draw near to the light. When that light shines on his sins, he can repent and follow the light or turn away.

Any form of logical viewing of the above matter should show 'any' person that there is the PERSON and there is SATAN, right there with them, in their HEARTS.

Satan is certainly not in anyone's heart. You're believing one of satan's lies. Satan is external, the world is external, and only the flesh is internal.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;586920]What are you talking about?

You said animals don't have freewills as in a conscience and I disagree.

Are you saying man is no different from the animals. Why is man given dominion over animals if that's the case? Do animals have a conscience that tells them not to eat their young?

We are made higher than other animals but there are always some animals higher than others according to God's will. Yes I think there is a conscience that knows God.

The vanity of Romans 1? What are you talking about, Childeye?

Romans 1:21, the vanity that takes God for granted.

The general condition of mankind is described in Romans 1...all are given a conscience. Are you saying all men fit into that description of those who worshipped idols? If you read the word, you'll see Abel, Noah, Abraham, Enoch, Eli, David, Moses, and on and on...it's a generalization. You do know about generalizations, don't you?[/

Yes I agree Romans is a generalization and even inplies degrees.

 

[glorydaz]

smaller says-----No one seeks...WHY? Because ALL are prior to belief BLINDED by the WILL of the TEMPTER.

Grubal -----Matthew 7:7 states, "Ask, and it shall be given you; "SEEK", and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Seek is something that happens BEFORE you find...We first "hear" the word, the Spirit convicts and we follow up (seek after) by placing our faith...

Amen...God is greater than he that is IN THE WORLD.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Amen...God is greater than he that is IN THE WORLD.

AMEN Glory!!!

 

[glorydaz]

So then, if I follow you correctly, you believe that the blind will supercedes the intellect and is simply our evolutionary mechanism for survival? That there is no hope for anything but the influence of evil, such as by satan? ...that we have no choice in the matter because of this simple matter of surviving and evolving?

Ya know...that's down-right depressing. It's sure a good thing it's just a bunch of hooey. ;)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Satan is in charge of this world system and provides plenty of temptation, but if you believe satan has any real power, then you're just believing one of his lies. Satan isn't omni-anything.


Satan doesn't have to mess with unbelievers because he's preaching to the choir. He blinds them by providing occasions for the flesh in this world system...lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Those all come from the world.

The Light of the Gospel of Christ is far brighter than anything else, and when it finds an unsaved man whose heart has been softened (the good ground), then he will draw near to the light. When that light shines on his sins, he can repent and follow the light or turn away.



Satan is certainly not in anyone's heart. You're believing one of satan's lies. Satan is external, the world is external, and only the flesh is internal.

AMEN!!!!

 

[jasoncran]

childeye while some debate what happens to animals when they die(some say they go to heaven others as i believe back to nothing) they dont have a ruach. meaning an animal does have a nephesh but a ruach is a spirit and animals can discern right from wrong they arent born with sin nature and curse.

when they kill and eath their young its by desinged programming that do so

and simple common pets and livestock that kill and eat their young

cats, pigs. a sow will eat the piglets if they arent touched by human hands first.