Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[Grubal Muruch]

For those who believe there is no free-will and that ALL things are predestined ahead of time, (by God) including sin,death, Hell, election, man, Satan, lake of fire, choice's, love, hate, desire, lust, etc,.etc,... Logic dictates that if there truly is no choice for man, then God makes ALL the choice's for man, correct?? Therefore, anything good or evil was and is created by God, is that not so?? He choose before the foundation of the world, who would and would not be saved, correct?? He choose for no other reason than, it was He's will...The elect were not any different than the non-elect, true?? It was simply because, that was His will, right?? A few would be saved and the rest (majority) would spend eternity in torment for the sins, God was responsible for creating. correct?? Because, (non-elective) man is extremely evil and wicked...By the "design of God." And therefore, must be judged accordingly...Because of the sin God willed for them to commit. Right?? But, Christ came and died only, for a few chosen elect. Those elect are no different than those whom God choose to condemn, other than it was His will...They had the "luck of the draw." Right?? So God created a massive amount of people only for the purpose of making them (evil by His own will) So He could pick just a very small portion of elect to save...Neither one of these groupings deserve anything less than judgement, but God decided I'll just pick these few lucky ones. Right?? And because I made the others sin so badly, I'll cast them into the lake of fire and judge them for an eternity (or as some believe, annihilation) Are you truly at ease serving a god like that?? Who would purposely make and create people to sin, in order to turn around and judge them for the sins he created...And the "elect" only get chosen "by the skin on their teeth...This does not at all resemble the God of the Bible. There were times when He brought judgement down on "evil and disobedient men" this is true, but there were times when He showed "great mercy, love and forgiveness." He must "judge" sin to be considered a "righteous" God. He shows mercy, love, and forgiveness because He is a merciful and Loving creator...The word says that, "He sent His Son to die for the sins of the world (pay the price for our sins) why? because He said He "loved" the world (all of us) He's desire is that ALL men come to Him and receive His forgiveness and mercy through His Son... But, He loved us enough to create within each and every one of us, a "free-will" to choose. The God of the Bible doe not want to force Himself upon us but desires that we come to Him as a "loving and forgiving creator." Next, your opinions. Thanks...

 

[A.J.]

I believe in free-will, but I'll provide some food for thought.

Read Romans 9. It is very challenging. It says God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

God is all knowing. He is beyond time. Even if we do have free-will, God knows us so well that He knows the choices we are going to make before we make them. So God intervenes occasionally to alter our paths according to His plan. But what about those that are not saved? Why doesn't he intervene just enough for those to become believers? If He knows that someone is not going to choose Him, why doesn't He send someone or some event in that person's life to save them?

Are we all God's elect? Or does He elect a few, that are lucky, and then it is the elect's responsibility to preach the Gospel and bring other's to Christ? The Bible says that we must die and be born again of the Spirit. Are we not elect until we have done this, because we are considered a new person and given a new name in the book of life when we are saved? Is it then that we have become God's "elect?"

I believe that man will NEVER be able to concretely answer this theological question. It is beyond our understanding. We must have faith that God is good and knows what He is doing - and we must obey His commands and make disciples of all nations.

 

[glorydaz]

The entire thing is so outside the character of God.

What gets me, is that disobeying God and obeying God play such a huge role in the Bible. How in the world can anyone claim man has not free will.

To tell you the truth, I think much of it comes from a misunderstanding of man's nature. A lot of people, even Christians, have accepted the idea that man has orignal sin and is helpless when it comes to something so simple as listening to their conscience. There are so many theories about original sin and man's sinful nature and each of them proves the other ideas false.

Sin entered into the WORLD ...not into man. Man sins because he's out of fellowship with God, and because he's in this body of sin which is susceptible to the lusts thereof. Man is without excuse, including any kind of inborn sin.

This verse in Romans says it very well.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If we had some kind of evil sin nature then Jesus would not have said we should become as little children "for such is the kingdom of God." I'm convinced the doctrines of men have blinded the eyes of many. and we all need to set those aside and go directly to the Word of God for all Truth.

Too often we will focus on how evil and sinful man is because we repeat and repeat certain verses until we mold the rest of the Word to fit one particular text. I'm thinking of Rom. 1, for example. Man is no different than Adam was except that he is out of fellowship with God. Once we're born again, we're back in fellowship and need only renew our minds and thus keep our flesh under control. Even now, we're free to disobey, and we are in Christ. Certainly we were free to disobey when we were in the world.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I believe in free-will, but I'll provide some food for thought.

Read Romans 9. It is very challenging. It says God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

God is all knowing. He is beyond time. Even if we do have free-will, God knows us so well that He knows the choices we are going to make before we make them. So God intervenes occasionally to alter our paths according to His plan. But what about those that are not saved? Why doesn't he intervene just enough for those to become believers? If He knows that someone is not going to choose Him, why doesn't He send someone or some event in that person's life to save them?

Are we all God's elect? Or does He elect a few, that are lucky, and then it is the elect's responsibility to preach the Gospel and bring other's to Christ? The Bible says that we must die and be born again of the Spirit. Are we not elect until we have done this, because we are considered a new person and given a new name in the book of life when we are saved? Is it then that we have become God's "elect?"

I believe that man will NEVER be able to concretely answer this theological question. It is beyond our understanding. We must have faith that God is good and knows what He is doing - and we must obey His commands and make disciples of all nations.

AJ----God is all knowing. He is beyond time. Even if we do have free-will, God knows us so well that He knows the choices we are going to make before we make them. So God intervenes occasionally to alter our paths according to His plan. But what about those that are not saved? Why doesn't he intervene just enough for those to become believers? If He knows that someone is not going to choose Him, why doesn't He send someone or some event in that person's life to save them?

Grubal----I believe the Holy Spirit "strives' with the hearts of men, throughout their lifetime. I don't believe the opportunity for salvation is only offered once, but many times during the course of a persons life...They hear the message of salvation through Christ, throughout their lifetime... God doesn't coerce us or force us to come to Him, that would mean He, was, "bypassing" our free-will choice that He created within ALL men... He wants ALL people to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord...It's a gift from your creator...

AJ----Are we all God's elect? Or does He elect a few, that are lucky, and then it is the elect's responsibility to preach the Gospel and bring other's to Christ? The Bible says that we must die and be born again of the Spirit. Are we not elect until we have done this, because we are considered a new person and given a new name in the book of life when we are saved? Is it then that we have become God's "elect?"

Grubal----Christ died for the sins of ALL of mankind...This is what the Bible teaches...God desires ALL people to come to Christ by their faith... But not ALL will place their faith in Christ...No one was, chosen before the foundation of the world to be the "elect." That's a misinterpretation of Scripture... There are no contradictions or errors or untruths set forth in the Bible... When we come across a difficult verse that seems to contradict the rest of Scripture, we cannot or should not build a belief system or doctrine on that one verse. For instance, the Bible says something about, "praying for the dead." It's one verse and it has no other Scripture to explain or back it up. So we don't want to "read into that verse" our own interpretation, speculate,or imagine something that isn't there. So it's best to leave that verse alone (we must assume our human minds just don't know) There are verse's in Scripture that seem to sound like God chose certain people (the elect) however, these particular verse's seem to "contradict" other passages that speak about "free-will...And we know, as far back as the creation God created Adam with a free-choice which was passed down to ALL of God's creations (men and women) God created man with the idea of having fellowship with man. The Bible mentions in Genesis, how God walked with Adam in the cool of the day. That was fellowship. The Bible says that God created man in His image (man was different than the other creatures God created...) God does not want "puppets" or "robots" that only do His bidding because they have no will and only follow the dictates of their creator. He desires man to place his faith in Christ by their own choice not because they have too...

AJ-----I believe that man will NEVER be able to concretely answer this theological question. It is beyond our understanding. We must have faith that God is good and knows what He is doing - and we must obey His commands and make disciples of all nations

Grubal-----The answers you reference are ALL in the Bible. Everything we need to know about God's mercy and forgiveness is right there... There's no mystery relating to salvation...God's Grace offered to a world of lost sinners through His Son, by our faith placed in Him...

 

[glorydaz]

I believe in free-will, but I'll provide some food for thought.

Read Romans 9. It is very challenging. It says God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

God is all knowing. He is beyond time. Even if we do have free-will, God knows us so well that He knows the choices we are going to make before we make them. So God intervenes occasionally to alter our paths according to His plan. But what about those that are not saved? Why doesn't he intervene just enough for those to become believers? If He knows that someone is not going to choose Him, why doesn't He send someone or some event in that person's life to save them?

Are we all God's elect? Or does He elect a few, that are lucky, and then it is the elect's responsibility to preach the Gospel and bring other's to Christ? The Bible says that we must die and be born again of the Spirit. Are we not elect until we have done this, because we are considered a new person and given a new name in the book of life when we are saved? Is it then that we have become God's "elect?"

I believe that man will NEVER be able to concretely answer this theological question. It is beyond our understanding. We must have faith that God is good and knows what He is doing - and we must obey His commands and make disciples of all nations.

It's true that God is beyond our complete understanding, but the Word is a treasure trove waiting to be discovered....a new nugget every day.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

God sees into our hearts more clearly than we do ourselves. Because God saw fit to make us individuals with a free will to choose, it's inevitable that some will choose wrongly. I think of Cain and Abel. Cain was selfish, and thought more highly of himself than pleasing God. Same parents, same environment...but God didn't create us as clones.

He did create us all with a conscience. From the time we're old enough to be accountable, we choose to obey or disobey. Those who obey have a softer heart and more light is given them. I believe those in Romans 9 who find compassion are those who walk in the light they're given as best they can. He has the hairs on our head numbered, so the depth of His knowledge is one of those things past finding out. Truly an Almighty and Wonderful God.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It's true that God is beyond our complete understanding, but the Word is a treasure trove waiting to be discovered....a new nugget every day.



God sees into our hearts more clearly than we do ourselves. Because God saw fit to make us individuals with a free will to choose, it's inevitable that some will choose wrongly. I think of Cain and Abel. Cain was selfish, and thought more highly of himself than pleasing God. Same parents, same environment...but God didn't create us as clones.

He did create us all with a conscience. From the time we're old enough to be accountable, we choose to obey or disobey. Those who obey have a softer heart and more light is given them. I believe those in Romans 9 who find compassion are those who walk in the light they're given as best they can. He has the hairs on our head numbered, so the depth of His knowledge is one of those things past finding out. Truly an Almighty and Wonderful God.

Amen to ALL that was said...

 

[A.J.]

Perhaps this is a better way to phrase my question: Is our salvation of our free-will? Yes, God wants us to choose Him on our own. But the fact that God is all-knowing makes it so much more complicated. It is hard for me to elaborate on this thought - it is beyond me. I, however, choose to believe in free-will.

Let's imagine that we did not have free will. That everything that happened God setup to happen. He knew it would happen and it was His will. That would defeat the purpose of evangelism and trying to follow God. But what if we didn't have free-will and we didn't know it? We would still try to follow God out of love and obedience, but God would know when Satan would tempt us and how we woud respond and how God would interfere.

These aren't necessarily my beliefs, just some thoughts that I have wrestled with regarding this topic. I choose to believe in the Bible, most of which points to free-will in all aspects.

But think about this: Does man have the capability to reject God? If God truly reveals Himself to someone, in a concrete, tangible way, would a man be able to, in is heart, deny God? If so, would it be the choice of the man or the influence of sin? Etc? I recently explored this question in a small group, and we got some good discussion going on.

Glorydaz: you brought something to my attention. Perhaps when we disobey continuously, our heart hardens and we feel less and less guilty each time we sin. Thus we become so distant from God that we reject Him?

Sorry if this all seems random

 

[Eventide]

I think that the primary reason for men arguing against freewill is so that they can support the false doctrines of tulip.. have you ever noticed that Calvinists are typically the only people who argue against mans freewill.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Perhaps this is a better way to phrase my question: Is our salvation of our free-will? Yes, God wants us to choose Him on our own. But the fact that God is all-knowing makes it so much more complicated. It is hard for me to elaborate on this thought - it is beyond me. I, however, choose to believe in free-will.

Let's imagine that we did not have free will. That everything that happened God setup to happen. He knew it would happen and it was His will. That would defeat the purpose of evangelism and trying to follow God. But what if we didn't have free-will and we didn't know it? We would still try to follow God out of love and obedience, but God would know when Satan would tempt us and how we woud respond and how God would interfere.

These aren't necessarily my beliefs, just some thoughts that I have wrestled with regarding this topic. I choose to believe in the Bible, most of which points to free-will in all aspects.

But think about this: Does man have the capability to reject God? If God truly reveals Himself to someone, in a concrete, tangible way, would a man be able to, in is heart, deny God? If so, would it be the choice of the man or the influence of sin? Etc? I recently explored this question in a small group, and we got some good discussion going on.

Glorydaz: you brought something to my attention. Perhaps when we disobey continuously, our heart hardens and we feel less and less guilty each time we sin. Thus we become so distant from God that we reject Him?

Sorry if this all seems random

AJ-----Perhaps this is a better way to phrase my question: Is our salvation of our free-will? Yes, God wants us to choose Him on our own. But the fact that God is all-knowing makes it so much more complicated. It is hard for me to elaborate on this thought - it is beyond me. I, however, choose to believe in free-will.

Grubal-----AJ, Our salvation is offered, by God to ALL people, as a gift and something we can't earn through doing good works (things) or going to church regularly, or being water baptized, or even giving to the poor. We are guilty of being "sinners" and we need a "Savior (Jesus) in order to have our sins taken away and forgiven by God. Jesus, came to die on a cross. Our sins were placed on Him and He paid the price for those sins so we wouldn't have to. The Bible says, "faith comes be hearing and hearing by the word of God" (the Bible) Once we hear the word about God's salvation offered to us through Christ's death and Resurrection, the Holy Spirit uses that word to show us we're a sinner and without Christ will be, not only separated from God for eternity, but will suffer eternal punishment. Once we realize we are a sinner and confess that to God, and repent (change our mind about sinning and decide to go the opposite way towards, obedience to God) we then have a choice to place our faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior or not... If we choose Christ then the Spirit sanctify's us (cleanses us) from our sins and seals us and puts us in the (Body of Christ so to say) and then we're considered a "child of God" And the Spirit will help us to bring forth good works and help us to become conformed to the image of Christ...

AJ-----But think about this: Does man have the capability to reject God? If God truly reveals Himself to someone, in a concrete, tangible way, would a man be able to, in is heart, deny God? If so, would it be the choice of the man or the influence of sin? Etc? I recently explored this question in a small group, and we got some good discussion going on.

Grubal-----Man "has" the ability to reject God, because of free-will choice...But God has ordained and created ALL of us with free-will choice... Don't let "anyone" tell you otherwise. Because it wouldn't be the truth...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I think that the primary reason for men arguing against freewill is so that they can support the false doctrines of tulip.. have you ever noticed that Calvinists are typically the only people who argue against mans freewill.

It appears to be...

 

[childeye]

Apart from Godly Love there is no goodness in man. That is what it means to believe in God and His Christ. That is why men do not have a freewill like he thinks he does, and why scripture has proven this over and over.

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;585919 But, He loved us enough to create within each and every one of us, a "free-will" to choose. The God of the Bible doe not want to force Himself upon us but desires that we come to Him as a "loving and forgiving creator." Next, your opinions. Thanks...

First I'd have to say you claim there are so many verses that support "freewill" defined as the ability to choose what to believe, then you supply no verses. Your words about God forcing Himself upon us is a mindset I do not share. He is seeking those who worship Him in Truth. It is a false proposition therefore equating God equal to man and making the compliance of the servant, contingent upon the servants discretion rather than on the trustworthiness of the master. Hence you would change scripture to mean righteousness is by "freewill", rather than by grace through faith.

Sure it sounds nice as men find it accomodating of God to allow us to choose Him, but in reality the scriptures show He breathed Life into us, so He is our very sentience that lives as a soul. Secondly, He is the Spirit of Love within us that nurtures and is compassionate. That is why we call all righteousness Godliness. So you see, God was from the beginning the very Life and goodness within us which we never chose, but we do take for granted when we think we do. Therefore it is accepting a false premise to say God would never force Himself upon us when He is all there ever was to begin with.

 

[reba]

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Are men 'free' under sin?

 

[glorydaz]

Apart from Godly Love there is no goodness in man. That is what it means to believe in God and His Christ. That is why men do not have a freewill like he thinks he does, and why scripture has proven this over and over.

God says differently...just after creating man....

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

We know from Heb. 6 that God cannot lie.

I submit that it's your understanding of Scripture and what it has "proven" "over and over" that leads you to think man does not have a free will. Be open and listen to the Word of God.

 

[Gazelle]

Here is a verse displaying free will:

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

 

[childeye]

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Are men 'free' under sin?

As you have pointed out that there is a freewill when one is free from sin I would concede that this would be an acceptable definition to me.

 

[childeye]

Originally Posted by childeye
Apart from Godly Love there is no goodness in man. That is what it means to believe in God and His Christ. That is why men do not have a freewill like he thinks he does, and why scripture has proven this over and over.
=glorydaz;586133]God says differently...just after creating man....

Originally Posted by Gen. 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

We know from Heb. 6 that God cannot lie.

I submit that it's your understanding of Scripture and what it has "proven" "over and over" that leads you to think man does not have a free will. Be open and listen to the Word of God.

Okay glorydaz, I'm open to understanding, but I'm not gullible. How does this scripture say God is not the goodness in mankind?

 

[childeye]

Here is a verse displaying free will:

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

This is the Old Covenant. This verse does not prove freewill. Please note that a "freewill" describes a will able to accomplish that which it chooses to do without restraint or compulsion. As we know, nobody has kept the law except him who was without sin. Note Paul said that he agreed with the law that it was good and he wanted to keep it, but because of sin he could not keep it, and so this Covenant became death. Sin is therefore a restraint keeping Paul from keeping the law. This is why Jesus as the unblemished lamb was sacrificed, to become our atonement.

Therefore this verse is proof against freewill as Paul said that through the law is the knowledge of sin and all have fallen short of the glory of God. In other words you cannot at once confess yourself a sinner according to the law because you were unable to keep it, and then say you could keep it because you have a freewill. For this verse to be proof of freewill you must have no sin.

 

[Gazelle]

Whoa. It surely does show free will. How else would you turn your heart away. Are you saying God turns your heart away?

Old Covenant? Well it still shows free will. The people had free will then as we do now. They didn't HAVE to provide a suitable sacrifice in faith that God would send the Messiah to pay for their sin. Just like Cain, he had a choice whether to do what was right in God's eyes or not.

If you don't believe in free will, why the designation between Old and New Covenant?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

God says differently...just after creating man....


We know from Heb. 6 that God cannot lie.

I submit that it's your understanding of Scripture and what it has "proven" "over and over" that leads you to think man does not have a free will. Be open and listen to the Word of God.

AMEN Brother!!!