Those who don't pay their tithes shall end up in hell

[Wrg1405]

It seems to me that the more I give, the more I have to give.[/QUOTE]

And to me that's what it should be.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unfortunately you missed my point and original intent.
A poster informs us that Tithing is an OT practice. I asked, How about the 10 commandments mentioned in the OT, are they relevant today (if we claim Tithing is OT)

Hi Classik
I'm not sure anyone answered your question above.
The Ten Commandments are Moral Law. The Moral Law was never abolished and is to be obeyed to this day. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it; make it complete.
Mathew 5:17-19

The paying of tithes would have fallen under the category of Civil Law. Aside from the fact that Jim Parker explained about tithing from Deuteronomy 14:22. it should be noted that Jesus did abolish both the Civil Law and the Ceremonial Law, which included the sacrifice of animals.

One is to give joyfully, from the heart. No church should demand how much to give - this could be using and causing guilt -something our Lord was against since love cannot come out of guilt - to obtain funds

Fellowship should be joyful and no guilt or coercion should be involved. From what I understand in reading this thread, it seems coercion is being used.

I was going to reply to your listed verses, but there are too many. However, if you go through them, you'll find that they do not apply.

W

 

[Corn Pop]

Paul says that "the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel." (1 Cor 9:14 RSV) In other words, they need to be paid. (I believe they should be paid enough so that they don't have to take on another job to support themselves and their family but, depending on the size and income of the congregation, that's not always possible.)

Also, common sense (a bit of a rarity these days) would suggest that if the congregation wants a building with a roof that doesn't leak and heat in the winter and air conditioning in the summer then they need to pony up and pay for it.

iakov the fool

A Pastor being payed is nothing to do with tithe. People willingly donate and if a Pastor needs or wants his cut he takes a piece.

I mean, if it was compulsory Pastors get payed, then the Apostles and Disciples would have been charging a fee to all people to hear the gospel as that is there income. You don't pay for the gospel, its a free gift. Freely give and freely receive.

Also Pastors need to acturaly preach the full gospel every service. That's there job, but tithe preachers are too busy telling people they need more cash.

 

[GodsGrace]

A Pastor being payed is nothing to do with tithe. People willingly donate and if a Pastor needs or wants his cut he takes a piece.

I mean, if it was compulsory Pastors get played then the Apostles and Disciples would have been charging people to hear the gospel as that's there income. You don't pay for the gospel its a free gift. Freely give and freely receive.

Also Pastors need to acturaly preach the full gospel every service. That's there job, but tithe preachers are too busy telling people they need more cash.

This is right.
There's a religious channel called Word of Faith.
All I ever hear on there, as I'm changing channels, is pastors begging for money. They'll send you pieces of some type of cloth, or holy water, or something else.
And they're always talking about seed offerings. You plant a seed and the money grows, I guess.
Wish I had some of those seeds - I have this small piece of property I could plant !

 

[Jim Parker]

A Pastor being payed is nothing to do with tithe.

That's right.

This is right.
There's a religious channel called Word of Faith.
All I ever hear on there, as I'm changing channels, is pastors begging for money. They'll send you pieces of some type of cloth, or holy water, or something else.
And they're always talking about seed offerings. You plant a seed and the money grows, I guess.
Wish I had some of those seeds - I have this small piece of property I could plant !

Religion has always been a great money making scam.
Those "name it and claim it" frauds keep reasonable people away from Christianity while they get rich fleecing suckers.

 

[Corn Pop]

Christ always keeps a remnant so I know for a fact there is genuine pastors and individual scattered out there who are one in Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

Christ always keeps a remnant so I know for a fact there is genuine pastors and churches scattered out there in the mix of demon corrupted churches.

Many people give up trying to find those precious few, unfortunately.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's right.

Religion has always been a great money making scam.
Those "name it and claim it" frauds keep reasonable people away from Christianity while they get rich fleecing suckers.

God must be so upset with humans,
For so many reasons...

 

[Corn Pop]

Too many churches and people have sold out God. Completely sold him out.

 

[Roro1972]

Changing the tithe storehouse is one thing, but not even giving the crumbs to the poor and widows what kind of biblical tithe is that. The poor people and widows in church are entitled to there share of the tithe, but I doubt the tithe church will be freely giving back to there own .

If a poor widow went to a tithe church and said she's struggling to feed a child they would not give her the entiltement of the tithe, they would say something like 'pray to god about it' and then command she pay or boot her out the church.

I have been in some churches and saw them pay utilities for a couple months til some one got on their feet and
by food till some one got on their feet. Now this church did not preach " one must tithe" but most did tithe some thing of the money they earned, obviously not all were able to tithe. if one has extra money each week he can afford to give something, but it should not be forced on him to give.

 

[Roro1972]

Hi Classik
I'm not sure anyone answered your question above.
The Ten Commandments are Moral Law. The Moral Law was never abolished and is to be obeyed to this day. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it; make it complete.
Mathew 5:17-19

The paying of tithes would have fallen under the category of Civil Law. Aside from the fact that Jim Parker explained about tithing from Deuteronomy 14:22. it should be noted that Jesus did abolish both the Civil Law and the Ceremonial Law, which included the sacrifice of animals.

One is to give joyfully, from the heart. No church should demand how much to give - this could be using and causing guilt -something our Lord was against since love cannot come out of guilt - to obtain funds

Fellowship should be joyful and no guilt or coercion should be involved. From what I understand in reading this thread, it seems coercion is being used.

I was going to reply to your listed verses, but there are too many. However, if you go through them, you'll find that they do not apply.

W

can you help me with this verse
Eph 2: 15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

 

[Corn Pop]

Its rigged.

 

[GodsGrace]

can you help me with this verse
Eph 2: 15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

You see the word "commandment" in your quoted verse, but it has nothing to do with the 10 Commandments.
It's referring to the commandments (or directions) in ORDINANCES.

The word "enmity" means hostility or hatred. The Jews did not like other races of people, just think of the Samaritans. They did not care for the Samaritans because they had mixed with the gentiles after the exiles and so became "unpure."

OTOH, the gentiles did not like the Jews because of their very peculiar religious beliefs - only one God, their deep devotion, etc.

Jesus' death took away the codes of law. The Jews had created laws and customs which kept them separate from all other nations. Jesus preached peace and reconciliation between men. Reconciliation not only means forgiveness but it means actually getting along with each other. Jesus death made of the two, Jews and Gentiles, only one new "church." Thus He made them into one new man - the body of which He would be the head.

So the Jews and the Gentiles, through Christ's sacrifice and teaching, would lay aside their hatred and animosity and become one spiritual body. Galatians 3:28

W

 

[Edward]

That was ME.
Tithing is absolutely OT. I posted you the requirement for Israel to tithe from Deuteronomy 14.
There is NOTHING in the New Testament that tells Gentile Christians that they are required to tithe.
If I am not correct then post the NT scripture that shows me to be incorrect...
iakov the fool

I think what it amounts to is, in the OT we were required to give 10% of what was ours to the Lord...in the NT, it's all His, and we ask how much to keep.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think what it amounts to is, in the OT we were required to give 10% of what was ours to the Lord...in the NT, it's all His, and we ask how much to keep.

Are you talking about the N.T.
Or the U.S. government??

 

[Corn Pop]

The tithe was a jewish theocracy government system. And there is no levite to pay any tithe unless every tithe pastor believes there a levite priest. And I doubt every 3 years they give all the tithe to the poor in the community.

I pay my taxes without complaint. Its up to the govn to use it wisely and provide for the nation.

 

[Roro1972]

You see the word "commandment" in your quoted verse, but it has nothing to do with the 10 Commandments.
It's referring to the commandments (or directions) in ORDINANCES.

The word "enmity" means hostility or hatred. The Jews did not like other races of people, just think of the Samaritans. They did not care for the Samaritans because they had mixed with the gentiles after the exiles and so became "unpure."

OTOH, the gentiles did not like the Jews because of their very peculiar religious beliefs - only one God, their deep devotion, etc.

Jesus' death took away the codes of law. The Jews had created laws and customs which kept them separate from all other nations. Jesus preached peace and reconciliation between men. Reconciliation not only means forgiveness but it means actually getting along with each other. Jesus death made of the two, Jews and Gentiles, only one new "church." Thus He made them into one new man - the body of which He would be the head.

So the Jews and the Gentiles, through Christ's sacrifice and teaching, would lay aside their hatred and animosity and become one spiritual body. Galatians 3:28

W

according to this Rabbi the 10 are part of the 613 and the 613 were abolished in Eph 2:15????????????
The Aseret HaDibrot – literally the 10 Statements, the so-called 10 Commandments actually account for 14 of the 613 commandments – 14 not 10, since the statement about not worshipping idols includes 4 separate commandments - not to worship other gods, not to make images of them, not to bow down to them and not to serve them, while the statement about keeping Shabbat includes 2 separate commandments – one to keep Shabbat holy and the other not to work on it.

 

[GodsGrace]

according to this Rabbi the 10 are part of the 613 and the 613 were abolished in Eph 2:15????????????
The Aseret HaDibrot – literally the 10 Statements, the so-called 10 Commandments actually account for 14 of the 613 commandments – 14 not 10, since the statement about not worshipping idols includes 4 separate commandments - not to worship other gods, not to make images of them, not to bow down to them and not to serve them, while the statement about keeping Shabbat includes 2 separate commandments – one to keep Shabbat holy and the other not to work on it.

Hi Roro,
If you add up all of the rules and regulations in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Numbers and Exodus, there are indeed 613.
But if you'll notice, some are civil in nature and some are ceremonial in nature. These no longer have to be adhered to. Do you believe anyone really does?
Jesus left us with only two commandments.
Mathew 22:37-40
If you follow these two commandments, you will automatically be following all the others.

He was quoting from the O.T. as was His practice.
Deuteronomy 6:5 Love God.
Leviticus 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself.

And the Commandments you mention are found in.
Exodus 20:2-17
Deuteronomy 5:6-21

Here is a list from both verses:

The 10 Commandments List in Exodus 20:2-17

1. “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
6. “You shall not murder.
7. “You shall not commit adultery.
8. “You shall not steal.
9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

The 10 Commandments List in Deuteronomy 5:6-21

1. “I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. “Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
5. “Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
6. “You shall not murder.
7. “You shall not commit adultery.
8. “You shall not steal.
9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

The way you divide them will make you come up with a different number of commandments.
I think it's just important to note that the first are to love and honor God, and the rest are to honor each other.

Only the tablet containing the 10 Commandments given to Moses were placed in the Ark of the Covenant.

As to the remaining commandments, my personal feeling is that man had a hand in developing some of them.
The best example I could give is that Moses allowed a Certificate of Divorce - instead Jesus clearly stated in Mathew 5:31-32 "You have heard it said" - this indicated that there was an original Law of God that had been changed and Jesus was re-instituting the original Law; in this case the Law that divorce is NOT allowed.

It would be interesting if you asked your Rabbi friend about this to see his answer.
You might also be interested in a list of the 613 commandments:
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

W

 

[Edward]

That was ME.
Tithing is absolutely OT. I posted you the requirement for Israel to tithe from Deuteronomy 14.
There is NOTHING in the New Testament that tells Gentile Christians that they are required to tithe.
If I am not correct then post the NT scripture that shows me to be incorrect...
iakov the fool

I think what it amounts to is, in the OT we were required to give 10% of what was ours to the Lord...in the NT, it's all His, and we ask how much to keep.

Are you talking about the N.T.
Or the U.S. government??

Why the gubmint of course lol. No seriously, when Jesus finished His work on the cross, He paid the price and was given all by The Father.

I think people get hung up about tithing without realizing that everything belongs to the Lord already. He gives to us. :yes

 

[Wrg1405]

think people get hung up about tithing without realizing that everything belongs to the Lord already. He gives to us. :yes

Well said. The following is something I sent out to my group a while back, which I think supports you.

It does surprise me a little that it's not been mentioned.

Sorry it's a bit long so not sure if it will be allowed.


Mark 12:13-17

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied. 17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

The Pharisees wanted to do more than trap Jesus. They wanted to see him killed for his response. But, they were cowards and didn’t go.So, they sent “their disciples” and the Herodians.The Pharisees despised them because they supported Rome, but would cooperate with them whenever it suited them.

The Herodians held political power and they supported the Herods, and therefore, indirectly, Rome. So, the two groups hated each other because to the Pharisees the Herodians compromised the Jewish nation and to the Herodians the Pharisee's were heretical......but, the two groups were united in their hatred of Jesus. The Romans wouldn’t believe the Pharisee's accusation of Jesus, because the Romans knew the Pharisees hated them. They needed pro-Roman witnesses to testify that Jesus was an insurrectionist. The Herodians were more than happy to go along.

Emperor Tiberius was reigning at the time of Christ. He was a pedophile, a sexual deviant, a murderer, and he enslaved millions of people. Tiberius claimed to be the worshipful son of a god.

He was despised by the Jews because he claimed to be a god. His portrait was on a coin which would probably have been a Denaruis.

The coin was the Tiberian Denarius

A denarius was roughly a day’s wages for a common labourer. The front of the coin depicts Tiberius crowned with the laurels of victory and divinity. Above is an abbreviation, “TI CAESAR DIVI AUG F AUGUSTUS,” which translates to, “Tiberius Caesar, Worshipful Son of the God, Augustus.” On the other side sits the Roman goddess of peace, Pax, and around her is the abbreviation, “Pontif Maxim” which means, “High Priest.

This coin was hated by the Jews as the very first commandment forbids the worship of anyone or anything but God, which included the crafting of any image of a false god, such as that on the coin.

I think there is a reason why Jesus asked for the coin. This episode took place in the Temple. Jesus asked for a coin because by producing it, the Pharisee’s disciples and Herodians revealed their own religious hypocrisy. If they had a coin then they bought into the sacred space of the Temple.

The trap.

If Jesus would have said "yes"then he would be seen to be supporting Rome and therefore turn the Jews against him.

If Jesus says "no" then he would have been considered and enemy of Rome and would have been killed for saying so.

In either case, he would have likely been killed but Jesus immediately recognises the trap, and exposes the hypocrisy of His interrogators.

THE NON-ANSWER

"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Jesus does not answer the question directly. Remember the trap, if he said yes or no then he is bang to rights so instead he answers the question with another one.

"Whose image is stamped on the coin? To which they replied "Caesar's"

Using their reply we find Jesus saying "Then give to Caesar what's his"

Imagine the Son of God holding this coin, the coin that depicted Tiberius as a god who commanded the allegiance of all under his domain. God in the flesh is holding this coin.

So in effect Jesus is saying "if this coin is his then give it back to him"

Then Jesus says "Give back to God the things that are God's"

Now he has narrowed the focus what belongs to who? What belongs to Caesar give it to him and by the way now I have your focus; give to God what's his.

This sent them packing, with no reply and no charges to bring.

So what is God's?

In the Hebrew tradition, everything rightfully belonged to God.

The Jewish people were to dedicate the first-fruits, that first portion of any harvest and the first-born of any animal, to God. By giving God the first-fruits, the Jewish people acknowledged that all good things came from God and that all things, in turn, belonged to God. God even declares, "Mine is the silver and mine the gold."

So you see everything belongs to God! The heavens, the earth and all that is on the earth.
Our souls belong to God, he created us.

If everything belongs to God what belongs to Caesar? NOTHING
So Jesus is saying "If you believe in God then everything is his then nothing belongs to Caesar, if you don't believe in God then give him the coin that bears his image"

Jesus is in effect challenging the Jews as to where there allegiance lies, is it with God or Rome"

So as believers what is ours and what is God's? Everything we have is God's

The money I have is God's, the car I have is God's, the house I live in is God's, and the list could go on.

Everything we have been given is God's, what he has given us lets be thankful, acknowledge that it's from him and when we have the opportunity use what we have to show God's love to people by blessing them.

The Greek word translated “render” is ‘apodidomi’ which means “to give back.”.

“Jesus looked at the coin and said, “Sure, that looks like his image. He think's it’s his. Go ahead, give him back what you think is his coin! But, by the way, actually everything belongs to God!”