Tithes

[YosefHayim]

What do you feel on tithing? Biblical or not?

I usually pay the tithe when I remember to bring my money (it builds up in an envelope). Recently I was reading the book Pagan Christianity? and it was making me question the way the church does tithing. Most churches make tithing seem manditory. Some even say you are under a curse if you don't tithe--Isn't that legalism?

In the book, it discussed how the NT church gave out of generosity. Generous tithing was given. Ushering started around 1662.

So my question is: Do we really have to tithe? Can we use the money we put aside for purposes we feel God would be more pleased in, rather than giving money to people because of the traditions of men? Why can't I use the money that I would put in to tithing to go out and buy food for the homeless? What does a church need with new amplifiers and fancier seating, or bigger buildings?


A few excerpts from chapter 8 on Tithing.

IS TITHING BIBLICAL?
Tithing does appear in the Bible. So, yes, tithing is biblical. But it isnot Christian. The tithe belongs to ancient Israel. It was essentiallytheir income tax. Never do you find first-century Christians tithingin the New Testament.
Numerous Christians do not have the foggiest idea about what
the Bible teaches regarding the tithe. So let's look at it. The word
tithe simply means the tenth part.1 The Lord instituted three kinds oftithes for Israel as part of their taxation system. They are:

• A tithe of the produce of the land to support the Levites whohad no inheritance in Canaan.'

• A tithe of the produce of the land to sponsor religious festivalsin Jerusalem. If the produce was too burdensome for a familyto carry to Jerusalem, they could convert it into money.'

• A tithe of the produce of the land collected every third year forthe local Levites, orphans, strangers, and widows.'

This was the biblical tithe. God commanded Israel to give 23.3percent of their income every year, not 10 percent.' These tithes con-sisted of the produce of the land—which included the seed of the land,the fruit of the land, and the herd or the flock. It was the product ofthe land, not money

Pagan Christianity Pp. 172-173

He will judge those who oppress the widow, the fatherless, andthe stranger. He says, "So I will come near to you for judgment. I willbe quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, againstthose who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widowsand the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me"(NIV).
The widows, fatherless, and strangers were the rightful recip-ients of the tithe. Because Israel was withholding her tithes, shewas guilty of ignoring the needs of these three groups. Herein isthe heart of God in Malachi 3:8-10: He opposes oppression of thepoor.
How many times have you heard pastors point this out when theypreached on Malachi 3? In scores of sermons I have heard on tithing,I was never told what the passage was actually talking about. That is, tithes were given to support the widows, the fatherless, the strangers,and the Levites (who owned nothing).

Pagan Christianity? P. 175

But God has a very different view of giving. Recall the parableof the widow's mite: "Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 'I tell you the truth,' he said, 'this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out oftheir wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on'"(Luke 21:1-4, NIV).
Sadly, tithing is often viewed as a litmus test for discipleship. If you are a good Christian, you will tithe (so it is thought). But this is a bogus application. Tithing is no sign of Christian devotion. If it were, the first-century Christians in the churches that Paul raised up would be condemned as being undevoted because all available evidence shows that they did not tithe! [35]

Pagan Christianity? P. 179

An excerpt from chapter 11 on prooftexting and context.

Later, the issue of giving money comes up. So Joe parks at 1 Cor-inthians 16:2, "On the first day of each week, you should each putaside a portion of the money you have earned" (NLT). Based on thisverse, Joe institutes a rule that everyone in his house church shouldgive money to the church fund on Sunday morning.
Again, Joe [fictional charcter used for example] has taken a passage out of context and built a practiceupon it. First Corinthians 16:2 is dealing with a onetime request.It was written about AD 55 to the church in Corinth. At the time,Paul was collecting money from all the Gentile churches that he hadplanted. Paul had one goal for this: He wanted to bring that collec-tion to the brothers and sisters in Jerusalem who were going throughsevere poverty. Paul was saying to the Corinthians, "By the way, whenI come and visit, I want that money up front to bring to Jerusalem.So every Sunday when you come together, would you please gradu-ally lay aside a portion of your earnings to create a relief fund?" FirstCorinthians 16:2, therefore, has nothing to do with a perfunc
Pagan Christianity? P. 236 (annotation added)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Your point is well taken.
Something to consider is that giving to those in need close to home should come first.
That includes your home church.
The poor and needy are all around us.
Does our church provide for these people?
Do we ignore them as though they are not there?

God wants us to be good stewards of our money.
We should look around us and give wisely.

I always fold up a $20.00 bill in my wallet.
You never know when God will put someone in your path who has a real need.
It often takes being tuned into God to see that need.

Paul also tells us to take care of our family first.

 

[YosefHayim]

Not saying my church, and others, don't help the needy. I just want to see what good my money goes to.

Like why would a church need iPads?
________________

[My previous post wont let me edit, but the cut off phrase in the fourth quote is "
perfunctory ritual of taking up an offering every Sunday morning.'" I copied from a PDF]

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Not saying my church, and others, don't help the needy. I just want to see what good my money goes to.

Like why would a church need iPads?
________________

[My previous post wont let me edit, but the cut off phrase in the fourth quote is "
perfunctory ritual of taking up an offering every Sunday morning.'" I copied from a PDF]

Why the church needs ipads is meaningless.
What's important is you giving to God because you love Him.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Yosef,
I am having trouble voting. Yes, tithing is Biblical. Is tithing Biblical for the Christian church today? In my opinion, No. But the principles of tithing are sound.
I had rather a narrow view of what the Levites actually did in their service to the people. I thought of them more as just pastors but I believe I was mistaken. In comparing them to the church today, they were the pastors, the elders, the teachers, etc. and even the singers and musicians.
They were in full time service to the congregation and there were thousands of them.
Offerings were separate from tithes and the crops that were not harvested were left for the poor and the stranger to glean.

I believe the principles are valid today but we give with freedom to give from the heart with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, by grace, through faith, rather than by written laws.
I also believe that when we are generous in our giving that the blessings that follow from that giving are even greater than under the law. I find that principle to be true because first it is our 'soul' that has prospered and is pure in the intention of our giving.
3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

So it is my contention that those who teaching giving by OT tithing laws are actually robbing people of a much greater blessing and in affect possibly even robbing God of the relationship He wants His children to have with Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you feel on tithing? Biblical or not?

It's most definitely Biblical. As Deborah was pointing out, that's where we even know about the concept of tithing.

I usually pay the tithe when I remember to bring my money (it builds up in an envelope). Recently I was reading the book Pagan Christianity? and it was making me question the way the church does tithing.

You should question the way the church teaches tithing. Part of the rules of tithing was you ate your own tithe. But the churches that teach tithing will say you are robbing God by using your tithe on yourself.

Most churches make tithing seem manditory. Some even say you are under a curse if you don't tithe--Isn't that legalism?

Legalism is not the point (keeping commands found in the law is not by definition 'legalism').

The point is, "do we have to follow the letter of the law concerning tithing in this New Covenant?" In my opinion, "no".

Are we to be generous to those in ministry and those in need? Of course. Tithing just happens to be a good guideline in which to budget your giving. Any amount you give, God has given us his word that you can have the courage to give generously.

 

[YosefHayim]

It's most definitely Biblical. As Deborah was pointing out, that's where we even know about the concept of tithing.



You should question the way the church teaches tithing. Part of the rules of tithing was you ate your own tithe. But the churches that teach tithing will say you are robbing God by using your tithe on yourself.



Legalism is not the point (keeping commands found in the law is not by definition 'legalism').

The point is, "do we have to follow the letter of the law concerning tithing in this New Covenant?" In my opinion, "no".

Are we to be generous to those in ministry and those in need? Of course. Tithing just happens to be a good guideline in which to budget your giving. Any amount you give, God has given us his word that you can have the courage to give generously.

Deborah, and Jethro, I should have worded my post different. Is it NT or just OT, I figured people would know what I mean. I kinda threw the thread together not realizing I had to go somewhere and ended up rushing it.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, and Jethro, I should have worded my post different. Is it NT or just OT, I figured people would know what I mean. I kinda threw the thread together not realizing I had to go somewhere and ended up rushing it.

So if I answer NO, would I be saying that it is not for the NT believer? Just make sure, I have not voted.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I voted con artist, but i just want to say its not all and 100%. I just find it hard to believe one can own a big flash house and be personaly worth millions when they work for the lord for free, and the only income they get is through donations that is suppose to go to charity or some cause. Not there back pocket from a hole in the system that gives them the right to pay themselves whatever salary they want tax free.

You are giving the impression that you don't like the way your church spends its' money.
Some things:
How they spend Gods' money should be between them and God just as how you spend your money is between you and God.
If you put restrictions on how they spend your money, then it is no longer a free gift.
If you don't like it, you are free to find another church.

 

[YosefHayim]

So if I answer NO, would I be saying that it is not for the NT believer? Just make sure, I have not voted.

Yeah I guess "unbiblical" could count as "Not NT". I mean it would pretty much be fallicious to say it's unbiblical (meaning both NT and OT)."

I wish there was a way to change the poll.

I should have done:
Is for NT (biblical)
Is not for NT (Unbiblical)

Forgive me for the confusion.

 

[YosefHayim]

Random thought..

If a 'tithe' should go to the church?

Why doesn't the whole congregation of believers get a slice?

Considering we are the church. The Ecclesia. The called out.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno. I was under the impression that you give generously to your church because it's kinda like giving to God, but that the 10% rule doesn't apply anymore. Also, I wouldn't go to or donate to a church where the spending was excessive or there was all kinds of pressure to give lots of money.

 

[Deborah13]

I voted con artist, but i just want to say its not all and 100%. I just find it hard to believe one can own a big flash house and be personaly worth millions when they work for the lord for free, and the only income they get is through donations that is suppose to go to charity or some cause. Not there back pocket from a hole in the system that gives them the right to pay themselves whatever salary they want tax free.

Many ministries, most, have a Board of Directors that set the salaries and benefits for the pastor, etc.

Pastors, evangelists and others who work in the ministry have to pay income taxes and property taxes on the monies they receive and the properties they own. So if a pastor is paid a million dollars a year, he pays income taxes on that money.

Only the non-profit ministry does not pay taxes just like other non-profits such as charities, non-profit hospitals, non-profit political organizations, etc.

 

[Matthew G]

Yes, tithing is biblical - As Deborah and Jethro said, that's where we get the concept from.

I also voted con artists, but of course there are exceptions to every rule. We are told that if we don't take care of our own house we are worse than an unbeliever (1 Tim. 5:8). So (in my opinion) when pastors get up on stage hollering and screaming that you MUST give them 10%, or that you MUST give "X" amount of dollars because doing so will open the Lord's well of blessings to you, they are lying. That $20 may be the difference between your family eating tonight and not.

It is my firm belief that, if you have "X" dollars, and you can only choose between something your family needs, or giving it to the church, you take care of what your family needs.

It is sad that the very idea of giving has been so perverted by so many out there. I thank God, though, that they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah I guess "unbiblical" could count as "Not NT". I mean it would pretty much be fallicious to say it's unbiblical (meaning both NT and OT)."

I wish there was a way to change the poll.

I should have done:
Is for NT (biblical)
Is not for NT (Unbiblical)

Forgive me for the confusion.

Not a problem, thanks for the clarification. Now I will vote.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, tithing is biblical - As Deborah and Jethro said, that's where we get the concept from.

I also voted con artists, but of course there are exceptions to every rule. We are told that if we don't take care of our own house we are worse than an unbeliever (1 Tim. 5:8). So (in my opinion) when pastors get up on stage hollering and screaming that you MUST give them 10%, or that you MUST give "X" amount of dollars because doing so will open the Lord's well of blessings to you, they are lying. That $20 may be the difference between your family eating tonight and not.

It is my firm belief that, if you have "X" dollars, and you can only choose between something your family needs, or giving it to the church, you take care of what your family needs.

It is sad that the very idea of giving has been so perverted by so many out there. I thank God, though, that they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

One day I was watching the TV show "Ask the Pastor". People call in questions for the pastors to answer. Someone asked this same question about tithing. One pastor said that they do not teach tithing laws in their church and people just give. One of the pastors really got very upset. He said people should pay 10% to the church and trust God to meet their needs. Then in the very next breath, said that the leadership needed to know that money was coming in so they could pay their bills. I immediately thought, so the leaders shouldn't have to have faith that the Lord would see that the bills got paid, but the families should. Rather a double standard in my opinion and not practicing what they preached.
If the church needs money, tell the members and give them a chance to respond to the Lord in their giving.

 

[Sparkey]

Let's not bind the mouth of the kine that treads the gain, right? Support is needful. The demand for money is questionable because if it were done because we want to become more and more like Him, the need to give would simply flow out from who we are becoming.

 

[Deborah13]

Let's not bind the mouth of the kine that treads the gain, right? Support is needful. The demand for money is questionable because if it were done because we want to become more and more like Him, the need to give would simply flow out from who we are becoming.

I agree. I think it all begins with love. When we know how much the Lord loves us, we love Him in return. We do become more like Him and from the fruit of the Holy Spirit flows in love, both upward and outward to others.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[YosefHayim]

Let's not bind the mouth of the kine that treads the gain, right? Support is needful. The demand for money is questionable because if it were done because we want to become more and more like Him, the need to give would simply flow out from who we are becoming.

Which is where my last two questions come in, in my last post.

Why not use money to buy food for the homeless, or bibles for pepole that dont have them instead of speakers, iPads, computers etc?

 

[Obadiah]

In response to those who ask why the church needs an IPad or a new amplifier (as their reason for not wanting to give the church money), I would ask would you feel the same way if you could never hear anything when you were in church? Or would you then be more accepting that replacing the burned out amplifier might not be such an unGodly use for part of the money afterall. Same with Ipads, they are a tool used in our modern society for many things, not just playing games or surfing the internet. As just one example since I'm already talking about he worship service, did you know in some church sound systems the quality of everything you hear is controlled by an IPad these days? In a medium to large sized church If you couldn't hear the song leader over the organ because of poor sound mixing, and then were blasted with screeching feedback every few seconds while the pastor was preaching, you might think that Ipad wasn't such a waste of money afterall! In fact the lack of it may turn that church into a very empty church in little time at all! Saying these kind of things are a waste of money in modern churches that can afford them is like telling the carpenter that a saw and hammer is a waste of money.

Now with that being said, it]s a matter of priorities, and in a Christian church those priorities should be a lot different than in the rest of the world. If there is no money to support the main ministry of the church (worship, edification, and evangelism) and also buy these other kind of things, then of course money shouldn't be spent on these other things. Our priorities are shown by where we spend our money and a church who spends more money for a professional janitor to dump the trash and wash the windows than it does on it's primary ministry is clearly wrong in it's priorities. But there is nothing wrong with a church utilizing tools such as Ipads, fancy lighting, good sound systems especially to make the music worshipful, etc, etc as long as they are not doing it at the expense of more important things. When I have attended churches that do not have Biblical priorities (they don't share all things with those who teach, don't use their money for evangelism or helping the poor, etc but still will buy the fancy equipment and hire out jobs such as dumping trash and cutting the lawn), well, I don't put my money in their plates or dedicate my time to them. I look for a new church!

So as for tithing being a Biblical command for NT churches, no, I don't believe it is. But we are certainly commanded to give to the service of God, whether it be money in the offering plate, time dedicated to the ministry of the church, or a meal given to a poor person in our neighborhood. So I pity Joe Pewsitter who will have to explain to God why he allowed the good pastor of his church, who teaches him God's word day after day, to resort to begging and selling plasma to feed his family while Joe drives a new car and lives in a fancy house but is stingy about what he gives to God's ministry!