I agree. I didn't eat pork today, so that means I'm under the law.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Tithing is a wrong practice.
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Tri Unity
Member
tim-from-pa
Member
Aha! In other words, we are no longer under the covenant of the Law (self righteousness) but under grace. That is just the source of one's power. The standards are the same. What is bearing fruit? How about the fruit of the Spirit for example? How about love? I know no person who truly loves God that won't effectively express that love by keeping His commandments. If trying to keep them legalistically, I agree. It benefits nobody. But if keeping them out of a new nature, then that's how God truly wants us to keep His commandments. If we sin, then Christ has paid the price and we are not under condemnation. However, we should not confuse the the standard with the legalistic reward/punishment that goes with it. However, God does reward faith if that faith is expressed as keeping His commandments. In other words, I won't pronounce ultimate hell on one who does not tithe, as Christ took the punishment for eternity, but it is still sin, and in the natural world God can and does reward faith or express disapproval at lack thereof.
The first part of your quote I agree with. Maybe, just maybe they're not all God's true church. But then again, some people do give. Keep in mind that a lot of these starving people are citizens of oppressive despots and as such any funding going to them is intercepted. What I am saying is that only part of it is from so-called Christians are not giving. There's other reasons as well we have to deal with but that's another subject.
As for your second part, again, I agree. It's based on your increase, whatever you deem that to be, and is between you and the Lord. I won't get into net, gross, insurances and whatnot as one can go crazy. The ancient Israelites had a simple agricultural society and the tithes were the taxes in a sense. So one's (agricultural) increase would be equivalent to paycheck in hand today. However, if you earn $100 and have that in your wallet, I would think it's reasonable to say that $10 belongs to the Lord. What would be unreasonable is if you use part of that money on yourself -needs or otherwise, and then say to the Lord, here's 10% of the leftovers I have Lord. I have $30 left so here's $3.
Pigeon
Member
When someone tithes it must be from the heart and their love for the Lord. Which is why they can tithe 10% and beyond that amount if able. Although nothing can destroy my relationship with God even if I don't give. But this scripture Corinthians 9:7 says that whatever I give should give with a joyful heart. And I think that people who do give with a joyful heart are able will give any amount. What people seem to not understand is that nobody should be forced to give it. God doesn't force us to be Christians but we do it anyway out of love. (Or at least we should be) So obviously that is how we should view this issue.
Just because Malachi is in the old Testament doesn't change anything, Jesus came to fullfill the old Testament. Remember Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's. Every penny you have and the wits you possess that got you the job to make those pennies belong to God yet there is a vast amount of Christians today who give very little or nothing at all. But money is such a deciding factor. What we do with our money is pretty much the tell-tale sign of how much you trust God. Honestly sometimes I want to use that 10% on my car note. But I give it to the church because I trust God and God has always provided for me.
Just because Malachi is in the old Testament doesn't change anything, Jesus came to fullfill the old Testament. Remember Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's. Every penny you have and the wits you possess that got you the job to make those pennies belong to God yet there is a vast amount of Christians today who give very little or nothing at all. But money is such a deciding factor. What we do with our money is pretty much the tell-tale sign of how much you trust God. Honestly sometimes I want to use that 10% on my car note. But I give it to the church because I trust God and God has always provided for me.
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tim-from-pa
Member
The scripture that talks about a cheerful giver is the Greek word "Hilarios". It's where we get our word "hilarious" from. So it's more than a cheerful giver. God wants hilarious givers. One who is governed by the Spirit of God needs a "braking force" to stop their hilarious giving. The tithe does just that. So, the tithe is not a goal, but a braking force that says that what one gave is enough as one in the Spirit would tend to over-give.
When Christians say that the tithe is no longer in effect, I would believe that if I see that they gave MORE, but more often than not its a rationalization that they give LESS than the ancient Israelites under LAW. If one is in the Spirit, they should gravitate to giving MORE, not less.
I lost a dear woman I loved in my younger days because she disdained when I pridefully gave one or two bucks to the Lord when the offering plate came around. But you know what? She was right. I was a cheap *astered back then. And I lost the love of my life because I was cheap. I deserved to go to hell. She was right.
And the same can be observed with so-called Christians today. I'll bet dollars to donuts that those who opposed tithing saying it was "under the law" don't give (from their heart) anywhere near that and want to simply justify their behavior. And then they expect to die and go where again? Don't bank on it. If God does not have your wallet, then he does not have anything else. Or, as the saying goes, "Put your money where your mouth is."
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felix
Guest
Then that's not called tithe. Please stop calling it a tithe. Tithe by itself means a tenth.
Tri Unity
Member
My small opinion is that 'if you think you should tithe, then do it. If you don't think you should tithe, then don't.' Some people wish to be circumcised and obey the sabbath every week, and some wish to observe tithing. I personally do not; but I don't object to those who do.
What I object to is that they try to put a guilt trip onto people for not tithing, quoting scriptures out of context. Also, it is extremely offensive for unbelievers to witness how commercial the church is and how we focus so much on tithing. I have met so many people who frown at our hypocrisy because of the tithing emphasis. Causing a stumbling block to unbelievers is not good. Everyone must answer for their own actions, though.
What I object to is that they try to put a guilt trip onto people for not tithing, quoting scriptures out of context. Also, it is extremely offensive for unbelievers to witness how commercial the church is and how we focus so much on tithing. I have met so many people who frown at our hypocrisy because of the tithing emphasis. Causing a stumbling block to unbelievers is not good. Everyone must answer for their own actions, though.
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felix
Guest
Terminology isn't important?
Dont bring Old Covenant into New Covenant.
Next time pay your taxes as donations. Let me see if that works for you.
Sent from mobile.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why does everybody ignore the fact that you were to eat your own tithe?What would be unreasonable is if you use part of that money on yourself -needs or otherwise, and then say to the Lord, here's 10% of the leftovers I have Lord. I have $30 left so here's $3.
Not all of it of course. God told them to also remember the Levites and the poor when they rejoiced in the abundance of God's increase and success. And every third year the tithe was stored up exclusively for the Levite and the poor.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I am not under the law.
But I seek to uphold the law by my faith (Romans 3:31). Not the ceremonial law, but I could if I wanted to. Just not for purposes of justification. That would be anathema. That is what is forbidden, not law keeping altogether. That's ridiculous.
Tithing is an excellent guideline for giving...even if you don't eat it yourself. And, yes, God blesses tithing, because he blesses any and all giving.
Tri Unity
Member
Martin's are nice guitars. I had used my "tithes" once to look after an ailing 'Rock Star' who developed problems. He wasn't known as a Christian, but he became one. He produced 4 gold records in the 80's. He owned a Martin at the time. His 5th album was played solely on his Martin. My son, who just turned 18, plays a Japanese Fender Strat.
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felix
Guest
I don't understand why you quoted Rom 3:31 and how you related faith while law is about "works".
(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
So, what you are saying is, you pick and choose the law convenient to you to follow or comfortable for you and leave the rest that are inconvenient?
(Gal 3:10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
How is that you are unaware of the terms and conditions of the law? Do you think you can escape the curse of the law by not following fully?
Following one law like tithe and not following all the rest mentioned in the law will make you a cursed.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why do you only keep some of the law then?
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felix
Guest
No. I don't keep or follow any law. I follow ONLY the new covenant.
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cleanfreak
Member
methinks the "new covenant" contains some laws according to Hebrews 8:10.
It's a pity you do not follow them.
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felix
Guest
The laws of God according to new covenant which are written in our hearts are explained by Christ Himself in sermon on the mount.
Writing the law in our hearts does not mean memorizing or knowing the law but rather not even to think of any evil or disallowing evil thoughts from our hearts. The old covenant law only says not to murder but new covenant law says don't even think about it (i.e, have hatred in your heart). The old covenant law says, don't do adultery but the new covenant law says don't even look at her.
Did you see the difference?
If you want to be specific, the law I don't follow which is of old covenant is:
(Exod 24:12) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them."
The law which I do follow according to new covenant is:
(Rom 7:22) For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. (2Cor 4:16) .. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward [man] is being renewed day by day.
cleanfreak
Member
Yes, I know the difference. The fact is you stated you did not follow ANY law and now you say you follow the law in Romans 7:22.
Here is a good sermon by Spurgeon on "God's Law in man's heart"
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols43-45/chs2506.pdf
tim-from-pa
Member
Jethro:
I just want to clarify some points for everyone here about the tithe since you mentioned about eating one's tithe. This is the SECOND tithe. There were 3 tithes. The one that most people are familiar with is what is called the Levitical tithe. This is equal to the tithe today one supports their pastor and church with. This is the one that everyone here is talking about.
The other tithes many people here seem to be oblivious to, so let me teach a little on that.
The second tithe was the festival tithe which like you stated was basically to oneself, but was required to share with others as well. This met the needs to celebrate in Jerusalem at the feasts. Actually most people DO keep this tithe already unknowingly, except it takes the form of Disney Vacations and other such pursuits with the family. This tithe does not go to the Levites other than sharing some of it (not specified how much) or in today's terms to the church.
The third tithe was to the poor, but given once every 3 years, so over time this would average to more like 3% of one's income.
The first tithe was 10%, the festival was 10% of the 90% or 9% and the third averaged over time to be about 3%. The Israelites averaged about 22% giving of their income for these specified reasons, almost half of which went to the Levites. So these are not the same tithe. (There were other required offerings like firstfruits and the temple tax, but that's another subject. All these offerings were given and then in addition freewill offerings on top of that.)
Again, the Levites always got 10% since they had no inheritance. If you do the math, 10% from each tribe would amount to a little more (on the average) given to the Levites than what each tribe possessed. BUT.... the Levites (equivalent to Christians today) in turn gave 10% to the High Priest. I need not explain the symbolism laid out in Hebrews. The OT are shadows of things to come, and lay out a pattern under Christ. Christ never did away with the Law. But again, if we transgress the Law (and all of us do) then we have an Advocate.
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felix
Guest
The context we are discussing about i.e tithe is from old covenant and law in general refers to torah, not the law of Spirit of Jesus Christ which is otherwise referred as grace.
Sent from mobile.