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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Tithing?
- Thread starter Vince
- Start date
Why would the church by Christ Jesus keep records of the gifts of the congregation?
Love isn't a contest.
Tax purposes. In order to make contributions tax-deductible, the donors must have proof from the church that they actually donated that amount.
If a church gets involved with government, the church is subject to the state from then on.
I've seen the effects of government over-reach in charities before.
Jesus said..."And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again." (Luke 6:34)
Give from the heart, and God will reward you openly.
I disagree, it is how they love and care for others that shows their commitment to Jesus.
There are rich people in most churches who out give the poorer but more devoted believer.
Often a casual observer will not know just how much is being done by a faithful Christian.
This is correct. As the treasurer of our church, one of my tasks is to provide a year-end report to those who contributed for their records. In the US, contributions to a church are tax deductible like any charitable organization. It is the government's way of encouraging people to help others. The only ones that see these records is me and the individual donors. Not even our pastor has access to our financial records aside from my year-end report which is provided to all congregation members. That report contains the total of all incomes and expenditures but does not contain individual member contributions.
stovebolts or Serving Zion. This doesn't appear to be a theological discussion but more of a general question. Should this be moved to the Lounge perhaps?
Going to move this to the Theology forum for a better fit. The Lounge is for more casual discussions.
Paul in Galatians 2:19 did not say the law was dead; he said he was dead to the law. In other words the law had no authority over him because he was under grace and law and grace cannot mix, Galatians 2:21. The law is not dead as some teach. You can live under the Law if you choose, but Galatians 3:10-13 states the law is very much alive, so alive that it carries a curse with it if violated trying to live by it.
Paul never taught tithing, in truth he taught against it. Tithing is not for the born-again believer today. Tithing was incorporated into the law given to Moses, Leviticus 27:26-34. The same law where circumcision was incorporated into, Lev. 12:1-8. We do not circumcise or sacrifice animals according to the law, so why do we tithe. Romans 10:4 For Christ are the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes. Galatians 3:10-13 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse and man is not justified by the law in the sight of God, but Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.
When you tithe, if you do not tithe correctly according to the law you will be cursed with a curse, Malachi 3:8, 9. If you tithe correctly you will get blessings poured out upon you, Malachi 3:10. The blessings are not just all about money for there are many different types of blessings. In truth, if you tithe correctly the blessings of God would be overflowing in your life. Some of you, like myself, have been tithing and tithing and nothing has changed in your life. If the way tithing has been taught by man than all the ministries that have been teaching tithing for years should have so much money they would not have enough room to store it all and the banks would be overflowing with all the money you should be receiving by the way man has taught us for years.
Tithing has never been taught to be money in the scriptures. Tithing has put people under bondage and a lot of people need to be set free from the bondage law of 10%. Most people cannot afford to give 10% of their paycheck. They would not have time to count out 10% of all their perishable and nonperishable food items and bring them into Gods storehouse. The laws given to Moses in Leviticus 27 required all this. The storehouses that God was talking about was storing up food to feed the priest and scribes in the temple so they could be about those things of the Lord and not have to worry about what they should eat or how to provide food for themselves.
You can give 10% when you know the truth. When you do not know the truth and you are tithing because you are told to tithe this is called tithing under the Old Testament law. God does not honor this today. Just because we do not know the truth, this does not change God's word. We have all tithed. To this day has anybody ever showed you in the Bible where tithing is money? You have just taken mans word for it all these years.
The God I serve and read about in the Bible is not a God that would expect you to give the babies milk money to him. He would not expect your family to go without twenty dollars worth of food so you can give the last 20 to the church. Even the women with the two mites gave her last from the heart and not because she had to, but because she wanted to. If tithing meant money in today's world we would need ten or twelve banks just to hold our money. See, the over abundance is not happening. Tithing is nothing more than good intentions and good intentions do not get you your blessings. The only thing that is going to set you free is the truth of the word of God. Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith; these ought to have been done and not to leave the other undone. See, the hypocrites do these things for show, but they do not give out of love. They give because they were told to do so.
The laws that were given to Moses were for the Israelites (not the born again believer) consisted of 613 Levitical laws and they were given and changed throughout all generations for their disobedience of Gods word. These laws also included the Ten Commandments which man has separated from the 613 laws and decided to simplify the laws. Jesus left us with but only two laws to follow in Matthew 22:36-40 and that was to love. Love is what gets our blessings from God. The 613 laws have absolutely no saving power in them. In James 2:10 if you are going to follow the law and violate one part of the law you are guilty of breaking all the laws and in Galatians 3:10-14 Jesus was made an end to the curse of the law and was made the fulfillment of the law through love. When we start loving one another and be quick to forgive one another than the blessings will come pouring in and you will be giving from the heart in all the areas of your life. Give from your heart and not from bondage of what man tells you to give and then you will see the blessings of God work in your life.
Paul never taught tithing, in truth he taught against it. Tithing is not for the born-again believer today. Tithing was incorporated into the law given to Moses, Leviticus 27:26-34. The same law where circumcision was incorporated into, Lev. 12:1-8. We do not circumcise or sacrifice animals according to the law, so why do we tithe. Romans 10:4 For Christ are the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes. Galatians 3:10-13 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse and man is not justified by the law in the sight of God, but Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.
When you tithe, if you do not tithe correctly according to the law you will be cursed with a curse, Malachi 3:8, 9. If you tithe correctly you will get blessings poured out upon you, Malachi 3:10. The blessings are not just all about money for there are many different types of blessings. In truth, if you tithe correctly the blessings of God would be overflowing in your life. Some of you, like myself, have been tithing and tithing and nothing has changed in your life. If the way tithing has been taught by man than all the ministries that have been teaching tithing for years should have so much money they would not have enough room to store it all and the banks would be overflowing with all the money you should be receiving by the way man has taught us for years.
Tithing has never been taught to be money in the scriptures. Tithing has put people under bondage and a lot of people need to be set free from the bondage law of 10%. Most people cannot afford to give 10% of their paycheck. They would not have time to count out 10% of all their perishable and nonperishable food items and bring them into Gods storehouse. The laws given to Moses in Leviticus 27 required all this. The storehouses that God was talking about was storing up food to feed the priest and scribes in the temple so they could be about those things of the Lord and not have to worry about what they should eat or how to provide food for themselves.
You can give 10% when you know the truth. When you do not know the truth and you are tithing because you are told to tithe this is called tithing under the Old Testament law. God does not honor this today. Just because we do not know the truth, this does not change God's word. We have all tithed. To this day has anybody ever showed you in the Bible where tithing is money? You have just taken mans word for it all these years.
The God I serve and read about in the Bible is not a God that would expect you to give the babies milk money to him. He would not expect your family to go without twenty dollars worth of food so you can give the last 20 to the church. Even the women with the two mites gave her last from the heart and not because she had to, but because she wanted to. If tithing meant money in today's world we would need ten or twelve banks just to hold our money. See, the over abundance is not happening. Tithing is nothing more than good intentions and good intentions do not get you your blessings. The only thing that is going to set you free is the truth of the word of God. Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith; these ought to have been done and not to leave the other undone. See, the hypocrites do these things for show, but they do not give out of love. They give because they were told to do so.
The laws that were given to Moses were for the Israelites (not the born again believer) consisted of 613 Levitical laws and they were given and changed throughout all generations for their disobedience of Gods word. These laws also included the Ten Commandments which man has separated from the 613 laws and decided to simplify the laws. Jesus left us with but only two laws to follow in Matthew 22:36-40 and that was to love. Love is what gets our blessings from God. The 613 laws have absolutely no saving power in them. In James 2:10 if you are going to follow the law and violate one part of the law you are guilty of breaking all the laws and in Galatians 3:10-14 Jesus was made an end to the curse of the law and was made the fulfillment of the law through love. When we start loving one another and be quick to forgive one another than the blessings will come pouring in and you will be giving from the heart in all the areas of your life. Give from your heart and not from bondage of what man tells you to give and then you will see the blessings of God work in your life.
I agree though I have one exception. I think it is important to set an example for my kids, so I give them some idea of my givings.
Well, just thought of another exception. I tell the IRS too.
Aside: Wow, someone besides me uses the AMP
I have time to blow ...
I am not going into the technical use of the word TITHING as some have.... I will just assume you meant GIVING.
The question as phrased is subjective so there is no tangible answer...so let's play.
Jesus made a judgement about the woman who gave 2 mites (I think it was 2), so there is spiritual merit to giving.
I thought we weren't suppose to judge people's spiritual relationship to God, but since this is a general question and not about specific persons .... hmmm ...
... I would say that the amount of money given by a person probably the best quantiative way to measure how 'genuine' (subjective term) a Christian is. In the U.S. only the IRS could do better than others a someone like WIP, though a church treasurer, would only be aware of a person's givings to his church. Also, the IRS has a good idea of your income and other financial responsibilities.
So, given one knows someone's income, expenses and givings one could create a formula to judge the 'genuineness' of a Christian.
Hmmm ... Givings / (Income - 30K for poverty line - 5K per dependent) = Percent Givings .... highest person is most "genuine" Christian
*Giggles*
ASIDE: Matthew 6:21
ASIDE2: Love is the greatest thing of all, but difficult to score that. Giving is indirectly proportional to love and giving is more easily scored.
Hmm.... I got a 9.3282 this month
Norman,
I agree. Tithing is biblical (Old Covenant) but not Christian (New Covenant):
Remember this—a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. 7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.” 8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others (2 Cor 9:6-8 NLT).
Oz
What does it mean to give to the Church? Does it mean to blindly give to the church or does it mean to give to the Church for the advancement of His Kingdom? I believe we have a responsibility to use the gifts God gives us wisely and not to squander them in vain or use them for personal gain.
I believe the Church, in part, is to be an organization of giving. See Acts chapter 4 beginning at v32. It should not be for the purpose of lining the pockets of the leaders or others on the payroll or to build overly lavish houses of worship.
I believe when one gives to the Church he/she should use due diligence to find out if tithes and offerings are used appropriately. Are the leaders and others on the payroll being compensated reasonably or lavishly? Is the church using the funds to help others and shine the light of Christ or to serve self interests or build extravagant properties?
As treasurer of our church the council gives me an annual honorarium of $500.00. We're a small country church with an annual budget around $75,000.00 - $80,000.00 so my responsibilities are not overly taxing to say the least.
I've never kept track but I would say I spend somewhere between 100-150 hours per year managing offering incomes, worship expenses, benevolence expenses, house of worship expenses, office expenses, preparing and sending related payments, preparing and sending annual reports to all givers, preparing and sending tax reports to the IRS and our pastor (yes, the pastor pays income tax on his/her salary), and preparing an annual report for our congregational members (yes, I am held accountable).
In the end, I never took this position for the income, I took this position to serve our church. At somewhere around $3-$4 per hour it would hardly be worth it. The congregation doesn't know it but the annual honorarium I receive is given right back to the church in the Sunday offering plate. Other than our pastor, I'm the only one who knows that even our pastor gives to our offering plate.
I suppose in a much larger mega church, with a much larger financial package, the responsibilities of the treasurer would be a full-time job and in that case the treasurer may need to be compensated with a reasonable income but in my opinion the treasurer or anyone in service to the Church should not expect anything more than a modest income at best.
I believe the Church, in part, is to be an organization of giving. See Acts chapter 4 beginning at v32. It should not be for the purpose of lining the pockets of the leaders or others on the payroll or to build overly lavish houses of worship.
I believe when one gives to the Church he/she should use due diligence to find out if tithes and offerings are used appropriately. Are the leaders and others on the payroll being compensated reasonably or lavishly? Is the church using the funds to help others and shine the light of Christ or to serve self interests or build extravagant properties?
As treasurer of our church the council gives me an annual honorarium of $500.00. We're a small country church with an annual budget around $75,000.00 - $80,000.00 so my responsibilities are not overly taxing to say the least.
I've never kept track but I would say I spend somewhere between 100-150 hours per year managing offering incomes, worship expenses, benevolence expenses, house of worship expenses, office expenses, preparing and sending related payments, preparing and sending annual reports to all givers, preparing and sending tax reports to the IRS and our pastor (yes, the pastor pays income tax on his/her salary), and preparing an annual report for our congregational members (yes, I am held accountable).
In the end, I never took this position for the income, I took this position to serve our church. At somewhere around $3-$4 per hour it would hardly be worth it. The congregation doesn't know it but the annual honorarium I receive is given right back to the church in the Sunday offering plate. Other than our pastor, I'm the only one who knows that even our pastor gives to our offering plate.
I suppose in a much larger mega church, with a much larger financial package, the responsibilities of the treasurer would be a full-time job and in that case the treasurer may need to be compensated with a reasonable income but in my opinion the treasurer or anyone in service to the Church should not expect anything more than a modest income at best.
This is how I see it...the original manuscripts use the word ecclesia, which is translated congregation. Which is a gathering of people.
The word church was later added to the bible. It can mean congregation, though it can also mean a physical building or an organization such as a denomination.
I'll leave the pondering of the differences to your imagination.
The word church was later added to the bible. It can mean congregation, though it can also mean a physical building or an organization such as a denomination.
I'll leave the pondering of the differences to your imagination.
WIP makes an intelligent point when he says "I believe when one gives to the Church he/she should use due diligence to find out if tithes and offerings are used appropriately. " He then follows with legitimate reasons why this should be true.
But think this through: Should big givers be allowed to control the direction of the church? Scripture states the rewards of giving, but "leadership" is never listed as one of those rewards.
But think this through: Should big givers be allowed to control the direction of the church? Scripture states the rewards of giving, but "leadership" is never listed as one of those rewards.
Perhaps it has something to do with being born in Hog Town. Go, Leafs, go! SMH Lol