To C 4 C (and others)

[Vic C.]

Hi C 4 C,

First off I'd like to say that belief in a rapture or belief in a particular rapture theory is not a salvific issue and we should never make it one. For example:

What of those many believers throughout the world and throughout history who didn't know squat about rapture theories and who just had a simple saving knowledge in Jesus and put their trust, hope and faith in Him?

I would like to paraphrase John Walvoord at this time:

No one Rapture theory is 100% correct. 8-)

I do have a question; how familiar are you with the PreWrath position? You did what many other not familiar with this position do; you attributed it to the Post Tribulation position. It isn't post trib because it places the harpazo just before God's Wrath, which we both know is one of two events within the Great Tribulation. That is assuming you believe the seals aren't part of God's Wrath. If you do, then we have some major doctrinal differences we may not be able to reconcile.

I do find the teachings of Historical Pre-Millenialism very compelling. George Ladd had written some fine books on this position.

Anyway, have you studies any of the Reformers beliefs and have you read the book, The Sign, by Van Kampen? Also, here are a couple of site that "specialize" in the PreWrath position.

http://www.solagroup.org/
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/
http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/prewrath.htm (the Prewrath-Only Discussion Group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prewrathonly , is a seven year ongoing discussion of this position)

A brief description of the prewrath position:

The Prewrath position teaches that the true church will be raptured when the great tribulation by Antichrist, inspired by Satan, is cut short by God's day-of-the-Lord wrath, which will occur between the sixth and seventh seals of Revelation, sometime during the second half of the seventieth week. The persecution associated with the great tribulation of Antichrist is viewed as the wrath of Satan, whereas the events that follow, beginning with the seventh seal, are considered the wrath of God.

There is another term that is sometimes expressed, "historical premillennialism," which refers back to the teaching of the early church fathers before 325 A.D. They believed that the church would face the persecution of Antichrist and Christ would then reign for 1000 years upon the earth. With the exception of two, Origen and Clement of Alexandria, who were allegorists, they all taught this view. Prewrath is plainly and simply an expansion of this view which was biblical then and biblical now.

Peace and keep up the good work of the Lord,
Vic

 

[Guest]

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[Vic C.]

who is God's 7 seals, 7 trumpets & 7 vials (Wrath, or 21 Judgements) reserved for?

Wow! :o Since you attribute the seals to God; and since you cannot differentiate between persecution by the evil one and the Wrath or God; and since you plead ignorance toward Historical premillennialism & the prewrath view, and since you have made this a salvific issue, I don't see how we can ever reconcile our differences.

Have you researched the origins of pretribulationism? It was based on tho writings of two Jesuit priests in an effort to divert attention away from the church of Rome.

Francisco Ribera and Manuel De Lacunza... look them up.

Excerpt:

Before getting into this chapter, an important statement has to be made concerning Futurism. Historism believes that the Antichrist and all that surrounds his appearing develops throughout history all the way to when Christ returns at the end of the age. This was the viewpoint of the Reformers who applied these prophecies directly to the pope and Rome. A Counter Reformation was implemented through the Jesuits of the Middle Ages that countered Historism's prophetic view with one called "Jesuit Futurism." This view as introduced by the Jesuits stipulated that prophecies concerning the appearing of Antichrist had nothing at all do with Papal Rome of that time, but with the man of sin's appearance at the end of the age. This, actually, was the viewpoint of the early Church, though it must be taken into consideration that the Catholic Church had not yet come into existence....

... Because of the Historical view of prophecy from the Middle Ages up to the Reformation, a series of writings by various authors were published to counter the Historic view of prophecy. These books were written from a Futurist point of view to take Rome out of the fire regarding the pope at that time being the Antichrist. They were not written because of a desire to return to the doctrine of Futurism held by the early Church.

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Pretrib4.htm

See also

http://www.theologue.org/Theory-JPEby.html
http://alt.mailarchive.ca/bible/2006-10/6859.html
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/72821/the-rapture-question

But before I continue, let me say that I do not deny the Second Coming of Jesus before God's Wrath. I do not for a moment suggest that we are to suffer one moment of that Wrath. I merely state that Gods' Wrath is against the unrighteous while Satan's persecution is against believers, coupled with the fact that there will be a falling away from sound doctrine and the revealing of antichrist before the return of the Lord, when He comes to rescue His ekklesia from God's Wrath.

We are not to be subjected to God's wrath; that is a promise from Him to us, but nowhere is there a promise to escape tribulation and persecution from Satan. The Apostles weren't, all the martyrs throughout history weren't and we won't either.

Be ready people. Your Faith will be challenged like never before. :o

 

[Vic C.]

The seals in Revelation

First seal

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

I don't see how one can attribute this to God.

Second seal

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Not from God either.

Third seal

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

I don't believe God causes this either.

Fourth seal

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I can't see God being responsible for death and hunger in this context. This is where the Great Tribulation begins.

Fifth seal

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Here we have the martyrs slained for the word of God, asking God for His vengeance. If God was responsible for their death, it would stand to reason they would being angry with God, but that is not the case here.

Sixth seal

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Now we are getting somewhere. This I can attribute to God, for this is where the announcement of His wrath is mentioned.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is the harpazo, the great multitude mentioned in Revelation 7:9. Remember the promise:

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Jesus alludes to the first few seals in His Olivette Discourse. The only involvement by God is that He allows these things to happen. He isn't the cause of this persecution. The Lord does not persecute His own ekklesia.

A study of tribulation and wrath in both the OT and NT reveals that in most cases Tribulation is not always from God, but Wrath is. Tribulation is mentioned 22 times; just three times in the OT. For the most part, no time is it attributed to God. Wrath is mentioned 198 times in the OT and NT; in almost every case, it is attributed to God.

From this we can assert that part of the GT is from Satan and the rest is God's wrath.... and it all happens within an aprox. 3 1/2 year period. Nowhere is it taught that there will be a seven year "tribulation period". Jesus never says it; Paul doesn't teach it and Revelation only mentions a 1260 day period. We may be able to squeeze everything into a neat seven package, but only if we speculate and make Scripture say things it really doesn't say.

 

[lecoop]

Gentlemen,

There is a time for a microscope view, and there is a time for a telescope view. If one examines the first seal with a microscope, trying to find something between the dots of ink forming one letter of one word, he or she will totally miss the meaning of the information given, i.e., words that form a sentence, and sentences that give us meaning.

Since Rev. chapter one is clearly about the days of John:

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.

And Rev. chapter 20 is about a time at least 1007 years ahead of us:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

We can easily see that somewhere between these two points, we stand today. Where is that point? The classical pretrib would say that it must be before Rev. 6:1, the first seal. The must say this, because they believe that the 70th week starts here. They are mistaken. Others are still examining the seals as with a microscope, trying to figure out their timing. Preterists must pick some time towards the end of the book, or indeed after the book, for they believe that most or all of the book already happened. They too are mistaken.

The prewrathers try to fit the 70th week, still future in their mind, inbetween two of the seals, which makes little sense.

There is a better way. If we let John's chronology stand as written, and not re-arrange it, it makes sense: seals before trumpets, trumpets before vials, and ones before twos, twos before threes, etc. (Does it make sense that John numbered the seals, trumpets or vials, only for a would-be bible teacher to re-arrange them?)

What can we find out about the 70th week of Daniel, outside of the book of Revelation? Here is an example:

Dan 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We read that an event will occor in the middle of the week. Any fifth grader could divide the number seven by two, and get 3 1/2 years on each side of this event. So what else can we find about this event, somewhere else? Jesus spoke of this prophesied event:

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Ok, we have seen the 70th week, and learned that an event will split the week into two halves. People will see this event, and flee! But before we get back to Revelation, there is more to see. What else did Jesus say about this time?

Matt 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus tells us that following this midpoint event, there will be an unprecedented time of trouble. Daniel also mentions this time:

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

So Daniel also saw this time of great trouble. He tells us that at that time, i.e. the time of great trouble, Michael stands up. Now we have more facts. There will be an event that splits the week into two halves, people will see that event and flee, for at that time terrible tribulation will come, and Michael, the great Archangel will stand up.

Could we find some verses in the book of Revelation that would fit some of these clues?

Rev 12:
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

How amazing! We find, in two consecutive verses, a fleeing into the wilderness (mountians) the 3 1/2 years, or half of the 70th week, and then Michael waging a war. Would he have to "stand up" to wage a war? Of course. Can we find a hint of tribulation, or pressure being put on people nearby these verses? Of course:

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Again we find the half of seven years: this time given as 3 1/2 years, or time, times, and half of time. Again we see the fleeing into the wilderness. But now we see that Satan, having been cast down to the earth, has great wrath, and persecutes the woman. But he will not stop at the woman, but will also persecute the remenant of her seed(verse 17). (The woman being Israel, and the remanant being those that are following Christ.) How will he persecute the woman? We see that in the very next chapter:

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This is the time of great trouble Jesus spoke of; this is the great persecution: people will worship this image of the beast, or they will lose their head. They will take this mark, or will not be able to buy or sell. This is persection. This is what Jesus was speaking about, when he mentioned the time of trouble.

What have we seen? We have seen conclusive proof that the midpoint of the 70th week, is in or just before chapter 12 in Revelation, not between two seals. We have seen that Satan's wrath will be felt during that second half of the week, sometime after chapter 12. We see yet another proof that John is at the midpoint of the week here, where the beast is given 42 months of authority. So we see the woman being protected for 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years, which is the exact time, or same time that the beast has his 42 months of authority. it makes sense.

Why then, with all this proof that john is at the midpoint of the week in chapters 11 -13, would anyone try to fit the week between two of the seals? Or why would one think that the seals had anything to do with the week at all?

This takes us back to where we are now. Is seal number 1 still future to us, or is it history? If we study chapter 5 closely, John gives is his timing for the first seal. John was priviledged to see the very moment that Jesus ascended into heaven, after having told Mary not to hold Him, for He had not yet ascended. What does John tell us is the first thing on Jesus mind, when He gets into heaven? He goes straight to the Father and gets the scroll into His hands!!!! My brother and sister; John is showing us that the first seal was broken, about 33 AD! When we study the next three seals, it seems conclusive that Jesus broke them right after He broke the first one. All these things have been happening continuously throughout the church age: wars, pestilences, etc. But when we get to the fifth seal, we see the first hint of a delay in time: those first martyrs are told to wait until their number is complete. It seems then, that Jesus broke the first five seals, back in about 33 AD. Again, this makes perfect sense, since there were two martyrs shown to us: James and Stephen, and of course, Paul added greatly to that number, by killing the saints.

Again, this makes good sense, because, if we read the 6th seal, we can see that there has never been a world wide earthquake. And there, at the 6th seal, is the hint that the day of God's wrath is about to start. It will start with the 7th seal.

So if we leave the microscope alone, and take a telescope view, from way back, not trying to read between any lines, we see that John, in HIS chronology, is about to start the day of the Lord, at the 7th seal. We see that the midpoint of the 70th week, is somewhere in chapters 11-13. Then we can read at the 7th vial, "It is done." This, my friends, is John's chronology, unchanged, and not re-arranged. It also seems then, that the 70th week and Day of the Lord, (or day of His wrath) starts at the same time, with the 7th seal.

Many people want to argue about God's wrath verses Satan's wrath: that they are separate time frames, one coming before the other. What though, does John show us? We saw that Satan was cast down in Chapter 12, and the beast starts his holocaust in chapter 13. This is his wrath, felt for the next 42 months after the abomination event splits the week. Satan's wrath then, is the second half of the week. Where then, is God's wrath? It is happening at the same time as Satan's wrath! They are both angry! In fact, it makes good sense that as God watches Satan behead the millions, HIS anger is building, until he pours out His great anger at the kingdom of the beast, with the vials of His wrath. Again then, John shows us that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent.

Taking John at his word, without rearranging his chronology, we see that all seven of the seals are broken before the first trumpet is sounded, and all seven trumpets are sounded before the first vial is poured out. Again, why would John number them, only for someone to re-arrange them? No, he numbered them consecutively, because that is the way they will happen.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Hi coop. Haven't seen you in a while. Oh, Sara said hi. :smt006

 

[lecoop]

Hi to all! I have been doing other things. It is good to be back!

Coop

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Re: To Vic C. (and others)

The word "rapture" is not even in the Bible.....

The term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17â€â€"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

Having said that, I think the Rapture is a bunch of hooey. (No offense.)

 

[lecoop]

Re: To Vic C. (and others)

[quote="C 4 C":9bbef]The word "rapture" is not even in the Bible.....

The term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17â€â€"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

Having said that, I think the Rapture is a bunch of hooey. (No offense.)[/quote:9bbef]

I want to see you explain your position to Paul, after it has happened, and we are up in heaven.

Coop

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Re: To Vic C. (and others)

[quote="C 4 C":86de9]The word "rapture" is not even in the Bible.....

The term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17â€â€"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

Having said that, I think the Rapture is a bunch of hooey. (No offense.)

I want to see you explain your position to Paul, after it has happened, and we are up in heaven.
Coop[/quote:86de9]
What view of the world is encouraged by the Rapture ideology? An extremely pessimistic, “outsider mentality.†It feels “left out†of the world and of society, so it eagerly anticipates leaving all of that behind. In fact, God shares their disgust, and the signs are clear: God is coming soon to put an end to it. The world itself is doomed to destruction, so there is obviously no point in caring for it or protecting it now.

Everyone left behind on the earth at the time of the Rapture will be subject to the sufferings of the Tribulation. The violence envisaged and described (as in the “Left Behind†novels) is almost pornographic in detail. The spirit of vengeance is much in evidence as those “left behind†are subjected to extreme anguish. The hope that the earth and most of its inhabitants will soon be destroyed is a cause of happiness and rejoicing among those who are eager to be separated from sinners and “raptured†out of the world because then they will be with the Lord.

To this we might juxtapose another, very different, world view. The world of God’s creation is basically good (Gn 1). Though it is marred and broken by sin and death, it is still created in, through and for Jesus Christ (Col 1:15-20). The world shares in the redemption of God and even now is groaning, awaiting the fullness of redemption (Rom 8:19-23) which will be manifested as a (re)new(ed) heavens and (re)new(ed) earth (Rv 21:1-5).

God sent the Son into this world out of love to show us the way to life. Jesus did not separate himself from sinners but, on the contrary, they seem to have been his preferred company. If we want to be with the Lord, we should be together with sinners.

In all the Gospels, he is criticized by the self-righteous, “He eats with publicans and sinners†(e.g., Luke 5:29-32), but, as he assures us, there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 just (Luke 15:7,10). The day of the Lord’s second coming is delayed, in fact, precisely because “ [the Lord] is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance†(2 Peter 3:9-10). Jesus’ harshest words are reserved for those who think they are secure and look down on others (e.g., the Pharisee and the publican, Luke 18:9-14).

Even though we may long for the day of the Lord’s return in glory, the time of that return is unknown. Not even Jesus knows; only the Father knows (Mark 13:32). We are warned against false prophets who say that the end is near (Mt 24:23-26), but Jesus assures us, “I am with you always, to the end of the age†(Mt 28:20).

Until that time, we are to be about the Lord’s work, “Blessed are those servants whom the master will find at work when he arrives†(Mt 24:46). If we look too eagerly for Jesus’ return on the clouds of heven, we may pass him by too often on the street (Mt 25:31-46). It would seem that what gets left behind most in the “Left Behind†mentality is the whole Bible

 

[lecoop]

Catholic Crusader wrote

What view of the world is encouraged by the Rapture ideology? An extremely pessimistic, “outsider mentality.†It feels “left out†of the world and of society, so it eagerly anticipates leaving all of that behind. In fact, God shares their disgust, and the signs are clear: God is coming soon to put an end to it. The world itself is doomed to destruction, so there is obviously no point in caring for it or protecting it now.

What has any "world view" have to do with bible truth? It is written that the "dead in Christ shall rise first" and after they rise, we that are living and in Christ will rise. You can argue about these verses, but you cannot change them. This event we call the rapture will happen as surely as the sun comes up tomorrow - in fact, even more sure than that.

Coop

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....You can argue about these verses, but you cannot change them.....

I don't argue the verses. I say that you and those who believe as you do have grossly misinterpreted them. The Rapture (as occuring before the final judgement at the end of the world) is a doctrine of men invented in the 19th century. All branches of Christianity reject it, including the majority of protestants.

 

[Vic C.]

... I don't argue the verses. I say that you and those who believe as you do have grossly misinterpreted them. The Rapture (as occuring before the final judgement at the end of the world) is a doctrine of men invented in the 19th century. All branches of Christianity reject it, including the majority of protestants.

The harpazo, specifically the theory that suggests removal of the ekklesia before the short-lived reign of antichrist (satan) is the "rapture" you are referring to, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, it's your fault. : j/k

It was started by Ribera (Jesuit priest) and rejected by the Reformers. It went like this:

"There is one final link in the chain of the development and spread of the rapture theory that should be mentioned in passing. I would draw your attention again to the source, the origin, of the rapture doctrine and the chain of contact by which it has been brought down to this day. It began as a Roman Catholic invention. The Jesuit priest Ribera's writings influenced the Jesuit priest Lacunza, Lacunza influenced Irving, Irving influenced Darby, Darby influenced Scofield, Scofield and Darby influenced D. L. Moody, and Moody influenced the Pentecostal Movement.

How? you ask. The Assemblies of God is today by far the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world. When the Pentecostal movement began at the turn of the century, and the Assemblies of God held their first general council in 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas, they were a small movement and didn't have their own publishing house. They needed Sunday School and study materials for their churches so where do you suppose they got it? They bought it from Moody Press and had their own cover stitched on it! So what do you think the Assemblies of God people believed? They believed what Moody Bible Institute taught!

This had its impact on Pentecostal theology, because in the early years there were practically no pre-millenialists in the Pentecostal movement. Most of the ministers in those early days came from Presbyterian, Methodist, or other historic denominations men who, being baptized in the Holy Spirit and leaving their denominations, joined themselves to the Assemblies of God or one of the other emerging Pentecostal denominations. That is how the Pentecostal movement became influenced and saturated with the 'Secret Rapture' doctrine by a direct chain right back to The Roman Church."

http://www.theologue.org/Theory-JPEby.html

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, the "rapture" is in the Bible. As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position (sometimes called "millenarianism"). Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though we don't generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event.

 

[Guest]

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[Guest]

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[lecoop]

The Tribulation is a future 7-year period of time when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world. The Church, made up of all who have trusted in the person and work of the Lord Jesus to save them from being punished for sin, will not be present during the Tribulation. The Church will be removed from the earth in an event known as the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The Church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Throughout Scripture, the Tribulation is referred to by other names such as these:

• The Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2)
  
  
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• Trouble or tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30; Zephaniah 1:15)
  
  
  [/*:m:1c071]
• Great Tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the 7-year period (Matthew 24:21)
  
  [/*:m:1c071]
• Time or day of trouble (Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15)
  
  
  [/*:m:1c071]
• Time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)[/*:m:1c071]

An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the Tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against "your people." Daniel's "people" are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and what Daniel 9:24 speaks of is a period of time that God has given "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place." God declares that "70 weeks" will fulfill all these things. It is important to understand that when "70 weeks" is mentioned, it is not speaking of a week as we know it (7 days). The Hebrew word (heptad) translated as “week†in Daniel 9:24-27 literally means "7" and 70 weeks literally means “70 sevens†(70 times 7). This time period of which God speaks is actually 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off "7 weeks and 62 weeks" (69 weeks total) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 weeks.

With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves 1 seven (7 years) to fulfill the terms of Daniel 9:24. This final 7-year period is known as the Tribulation period--it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for their sin.

Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the 7-year Tribulation period. This verse says, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the "abomination that makes desolate" (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast†in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for 1 week (7 years), but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the Tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or 7 years. Also see Daniel 7:25 where the "time, times, and half a time" (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to the Great Tribulation, the last half of the 7-year Tribulation period when the "abomination that causes desolation" (the beast) will be in power.

Good post! I am in agreement with most of it. However, is the term "tribulation period" scriptural? I don't think so. Why not used a term that at least is close to scriptural, such as "Daniel's 70th week."

Coop

 

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[lecoop]

C 4 C wrote:

Revelation 6:1-17 • 7:1-17 • 8:1
The 7 Seals of the Wrath of God.

This is a bold statement; but incorrect. C 4 C, are we under God's wrath now, as we write? Of course not! God's wrath (or the coming of His wrath, is written at the 6th seal, not the first seal.

Rev. 6
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We see the words, "the great day of His wrath is come..." This is telling us that the day of the Lord is imminent: will start soon, and without delay. The words, "is come" is translated from the Greek "erchomai," and is an aorist tense verb. Thayers says of this: "the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time." Because this is an aorist verb, we cannot then tell exactly when. The Greek would just does not give away "when." However, from the context, we can see that the day of His wrath, or the "day of the Lord," is upon them. They knew this because of the cosmic signs and the prophecy of Joel. There is nothing here that would give even one hint that God's wrath started at some point in time before this, as in the first seal.

This brings us to the first seal. The question I will ask is this: WHEN? What is the timing of the first seal? Come up with the right answer here, and you will have a key to understanding John's chronology.

Vic is right here: the seals are not a part of God's wrath. Neither are there "21" judgements from God. The correct answer is 14: seven trumpets and seven vials.

Coop

 

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