To C 4 C (and others)

[Catholic Crusader]

Interesting, your being subtly cunning & every hillarious by even implying that, I ever insinuated that the caught-up (or, rapture) call occurs at Rev 6:16. :smt018

C 4 C, you must learn to read more closely!

Therefore, what C 4 C would have the readers believe, is that the rapture of the church must have taken place somewhere before these scriptures in Rev 6:16.

Coop

The "rapture" takes place on the final day, the judgement day.

 

[lecoop]

[quote="C 4 C":f8715]Vic C, (if I remember correctly) through different books, you've tried to get the Bible to validate:

Mid-Tribulation
Post-Tribulation
Postmillennialism
Amillenialism

Which (due to falsehoods) it can not.

:-D OK :

Actually, you remember incorrectly. I suggested a type of Pre-Wrath harpazo.

Please, show me one verse, just one verse that says the ekklesia will be whisked away and not endure tribulation of any magnitude. Because, that is the only difference between tribulation and Great Tribulation, magnitude and intensity. But you won't see this because like many others, you have been indoctrinated into the false belief that pretribulationism is Biblical and true. The reality is it doesn't interpret scripture in a literal fashion, even though it claims as much.

Basically it takes the clear teaching that the ekklesia has and will suffer tribulation and thumbs it's nose at God and His word. It suggests in many places that well, scripture says that, but it really means this, all the while ignoring any historical element as though history doesn't exist or that scripture had no meaning whatsoever to the audience at hand. What a great injustice done to God's written word.

What a great injustice you do to yourself by casually disregarding and discarding any other view of eschatology and embracing the one that is least Biblical. But we all have opinions and this one is mine. [/quote:f8715]

Good post, Vic. The church has been in tribulation since its beginning. What most call "the tribulation" I call "the 70th week." There can be no confusion there. I believe John is clear that God's wrath starts with the opening of the 70th week, at the 7th seal, includes all the trumpets, and all the vials, and continues on througth Armageddon. Therefore, we have no appointment with any of the 70th week. The church will be taken out, before the 7th seal. How interesting that JOhn saw the great crowd, without number, just before the 7th seal!

Coop

 

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[lecoop]

The theme of Rev. 12 is the dragon. He is mentioned 32 times (counting pronouns). The timing is the midpoint of the 70th week. God wants to show John what the dragon will be doing during the 70th week. However, in John's introduction to the dragon, God will acquaint John with what the dragon had done in the past. In other words, God will give John a small "history lesson." He shows John, in vision form, how the dragon was determined to kill Jesus as soon as He was born. Of course, these things happened about 60 years previous to the time John saw these visions.

Therefore, in the first five verses of chapter 12, John is seeing a "history lesson:" events that took place some time in John's past, or perhaps before John was born.

The theme of Rev. 5 is the book. It is mentioned 8 times. In the vision given by God, God is introducing John to this book. However, it is 95 AD (approximately.) God must give John a "history lesson," siince some major things happened with this book, some time in John's past, that John knew nothing about. God's desire is to give John a brief (not complete) history lesson of this book sealed with seven seals. Since (by reading ahead) the opening of this book initiates the entire end time scenario, it is very important to John's entire book. There are clues in chapter five, that tell us the timing of this vision (Not the time that John saw the visons, but rather, the time that the events IN the vision took place.) Can you find the clues? I have given some hints.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

In all actuality (Lecoop) non of my (above) statement is my opinion, I stated over 15 different Bible scriptures.

Revelation 6:1-17 • 7:1-17 • 8:1
The 7 Seals of the Wrath of God.

Opinion

Logically & analytically all must read Rev 6:16-17 also in context with verse 15, etc to get a better understanding of what the people are saying & why the people (who was left-behind) on Earth said what's recorded in the Bible that they will be saying (Rev 6:15-17):

Opinion. Implies that the rapture will occur before the 6th seal. Does not show scriptures proving to readers where rapture occurs before the 6th seal.

Now the statements contained in verses 15-17 is indicative of many people (from various classes) wanting to try to hide themselves from the Wrath of God which had occured, is occuring & (for 7 years) will continue to occur.

Opinion. Imiplies that God's wrath has started before the sixth seal. Shows no scripture to back this up.

Since the 21 judgments of God is His (7 (seals) + 7 (trumpets) + 7 (vials) = 21 judgments) Wrath, you must not remove, exclude, etc any of His words, by saying that God's Wrath begins with the (6) six seal you instantaneously delete the (5) five seals that came before it & simultaneously you lessen God's 21 judgments down to 16 judgments.
Which (Lecoop & others) is non-scriptual & is violation(s) of His word(s).

Opinion: Implies that all the seals are judgements of God: does not show scriptures to prove this theory. Implies that any other exegesis (besides his) is wrong.

According to you own (above) recent statement God's Wrath begins with the (6) six seal, which therefore presents 16 judgments in which is non-scriptual & (according to the Bible is extremely dangerous) I knowing that God's (end times) Wrath consists of (3) three columns containing (7) seven items in each column, so (3 x 7 = 21) (or, 7 x 3 = 21) I will respectfully have to disagree with all of your (above) conclusion(s) & statement(s) for scriptual reasons.

Opinion: implies that 16 judgements must be non-scriptural - only because his theory is that all the seals are judgements of God. Implies that any theory other than his own, is extremely dangerous.

C 4 C, the above are comments that are opinion, not backed up by scripture. I will point you to a scripture that you could start with: please explain to the readers how God's wrath would be shown, in the death of martyrs? You are saying that God is killing His own! Yet we read:

Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Romans 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
And then the opposite side:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It is clear in these scriptures that God's wrath is reserved for sinners, not saints.

In the wars caused by:

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Was only the unrighteous killed? Of course, we know that wars kill the rightous with the unrighteous. They are NOT the wrath of God upon the sinner. Rather,they are the work of Satan, who comes to steal, kill and destroy.

Neither does the rider named "Death" limit his work to the unrighteous. The righteous die from pestilence and disease, along with the unrighteous.

It can be expected that the righteous on the earth, during the trumpets, will certainly be affected by God's wrath. When there is no water to drink, will the righteous go without, just as the unrighteous? Absolutely, unless God works special miracles, which we all know He is able to perform! However, John shows us that the church is taken out of the world, as the great crowd without number, before the true judgements of God fall.

Coop

 

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[lecoop]

Lecoop, time is always relative to somethings else.... before there was any written word(s) of God (the one who declares "the end" from "the beginning") He show Abraham, Moses, etc for the sake of comfort, education, etc (past, present & future) world events, so likewise it's plausible that God showed John similar things.

NOTE: Since I didn't go searching for them I have to say that, I haven't found your clues, or hints.

I already gave you the clues:

No man was found worthy
Jesus not at the right hand of the Father
Holy Spirit present in the throne room.

These clues tell us something: God gave John a vision, but it was a vision into John's past - to a time before Jesus rose from the dead; to a time before Jesus died on the cross; to a time where Jesus was still alive on the earth.

This is why John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father in the vision: He was down on the earth, about to become the redeemer that would be worthy to break the seals.

This is why "no man was found." Jesus had not yet died and not yet risen from the dead. Therefore, at this point in time - the point in time that John was seeing into - there was no man worthy! No man had yet become the redeemer of mankind.

This is why the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead, had not yet ascended, and had not yet sent the Holy Spirit down.

Then: at that moment in the vision, John was privileged to see the very moment that Jesus ascended into the throne room, probably having just told Mary not to hold to Him, for He had not yet ascended. In other words, John was seeing back about 60 years into his past. John remembered running to the tomb, and going in after Peter, and seeing the clothes - and beliving in the resurrection - but John did not know that Jesus ascended to the throne room soon after that. Now, seeing the vision, John knew Jesus had ascended, and knew what HE did as soon as He arrived in the throne room.

If you will notice, the first thing Jesus did was grab the book out of the hand of the Father - just as if that was the most important thing He could do. And, it seems that WAS the most important thing! It seems this book was the title deed to planet earth. It seems it was an agreement between God and Satan, and/or God and Adam, that only a man would ever be allowed to break the seals and open the book. And this man had to be a redeemer! I believe Satan thought that no man would EVER become worthy. He was wrong! Thank God. Jesus seemed to know (after all, He is God) that before the 70th week could come, and before the millennial reign could begin, these seals would have to be broken. So the moment He arrived in heaven, He took the book, and started breaking the seals. When did this happen? John shows us that it happened about 33 AD. Therefore,the first five seals are history to us now. Plain and simple, and exactly what the author, the Holy Spirit intended.

Coop

 

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[lecoop]

NOTE: Where is your (chronological) Bible scripture(s) which substantiates what you've said?

It appears to be just more of your opinion(s), belief(s), etc (which I don't have a problem with, but it's exactly what you accused me of doing, right?).

Rev 4 (Whole chapter shows that John did NOT see Jesus at the Father's right hand.)
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Note Jesus' absense.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
The Holy Spirit is there.



Revelation 5
1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

The book.

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
.

These verses shows us that a search was made and completed, and no man was found.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

These verses show us that John was privileged to see the very moment that Jesus ascended. They also show the very first thing Jesus did when He arrived back in heaven.

I back up what I say by scripture.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Ah more subtle cunningness from you I am seeing & reading.

Nothing "cunning" at all. I just understand the timing of the seals.

Where is your (chronological) Bible scripture which substantiates what you've said?
Ah (if member correctly) you're the chronological man right?

Are we agreed that the seals are chronological? (After all, John did number them 1-7.) Where do we first read about wrath? Of course, we both know that it is at the 6th seal. But does His wrath start there? I don't think so. These people just recognized from scriptures, like Joel 2, that the Day of the Lord, was about to start. They had just seen the cosmic signs in the sun and moon and were fearful of the start of the day of the Lord. Obviously, they were far more scared of God, and His "day of wrath" than they were of the earthquake, since they were in the mountains begging them to fall on them. Please go back and read the seals again, very carefully, but read chapter 5 first. The very moment that Jesus arrived in heaven, having just risen from the dead, He took the scroll (book) out of the hand of the Father, and started breaking the seals. This is what is written. Sorry, but your theory had to overlook these verses, to put the breaking of the first seal into our future.

Ok, do you believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 occurs before, or after Rev 6:16-17?

I believe that the rapture will take place in verse 12, at the great earthquake. Have you not read?

Matt. 27
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

These verses sets the precedent for an earthquake to accompany a resurrection. Next, what does John see soon after the 6th seal? The great crowd in heaven, to large to number. It is the raptured church in heaven.

Where is your (chronological) Bible scripture which substantiates what you've said?

My proof is right there at the sixth seal. It certainly does NOT say that His wrath went backward in time to the first seal. You added that theory.

I believe that, you're mixing-up John's vision with the rapture of the church & the martyrs under God's altar.

Why would you say that? The rapture will take place about 2000 years after the 5th seal was broken.

Where is your (chronological) Bible scripture which substantiates that His seals, trumpets & vials is not His judgement, or wrath?

Just go read about the sixth seal very carefully. His wrath is about to start. John certainly did NOT tell us that His wrath had already been poured out in seals 1-5. That is just your theory. John is telling us that His wrath is about to start, with the opening of "His day of wrath," meaning the "Day of the Lord." That day will start with the 7th seal. Please go and read Joel two.
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, [6th seal events] before the great and terrible day of the LORD come."

So by Joel, which comes first? The cosmic signs or the day of the Lord?

I guess (perhaps) what you're saying is that, God is so (brilliantly) stupid He didn't even realize it until it was too late that His Wrath, or 21 judgement should really be 16 in stead of 21, but He already put them all in one book & (accidently) allowed John to see them all.

You are the one that keeps saying 21. That is just a theory that comes from human reasoning. It certainly does not come from Revelation.

Coop

 

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[lecoop]

Ah, more of your own opinion(s), which scripture(s) will not validate.

You back-up what you say by scripture..... really?

Ok I have plenty more of your own opinions, but here's just two questions for now, tell me..... where in the Bible is it written:

That any of the seals was opened in antiquity?

If one reads Revelation chapter 1, even a beginning reader could tell us that those events happened while John was alive on the earth, somewhere around 95 AD. If one reads Rev chapter 21, again they could easily see that this chapter is about events FAR into our future. Therefore, logic would say that somewhere between these two chapters, one in our past and one in our future, MUST be a "crossover point," where we are today. If you will note, John did not include a chapter or a verse that says, "in 2008, .........." No, we have to deduce where we are now, for reading closely what John wrote. Many, many pretribbers have chosen a place between chapter 3 and chapter 4, for this "crossover point:" for where we are right now. They say we are waiting for the rapture that will occur as shown in Rev. 4:1. They are mistaken and have used very poor exegesis. Again, and 5th grader could read 4:1 and tell us that John was talking about an experience in his life - not at all speaking of the rapture of the church.

So you have picked where you think we are now, just as I have. However, I have shown you verse after verse to back up why I say we are waiting on the 6th seal. You have shown absolutely nothing to back up what you believe: in fact, you have not really told us where you think we are now: all you have done is disagree. Why is this?

That Jesus Christ walked into the Father & became one?

You are so funny! Did you not read?

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

I believe that your a subscriber of RCC theology.

I am nondenominational, thank you very much. There will be no denominations in heaven.
Coop

 

[lecoop]

C 4 C wrote,

Interesting, your (above) Bible quote (in Matthew 27:51-52) is not referring to the mass rapture of the second, or third wave of God's people, but is referring only to the first wave which Jesus Christ took with Him after He rose from the dead & the Earthquake which accompanied His resurrection just like when He died on the cross.

Did you miss my word, "precedent?"

"An act or instance that may be used as an example in dealing with subsequent similar instances." (dictionary.com)

From this passage, we get the idea that a resurrection just may cause an earthquake. When you stop and think about it, many of these saints may have been dead for centuries, or millenia. The molecules that made up their body, had long since been dispersed. Some may be hundred of feet underground. When God brought them together once again, it caused a great shaking. It will be the same for the church. Many of the saints of the church have been LONG dead; their bodies totally gone back to dust.

Coop

 

[Catholic Crusader]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYdC33Ulh4w

 

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