To C 4 C (and others)

[lecoop]

C 4 C wrote:
Revelation 6:1-17 • 7:1-17 • 8:1
The 7 Seals of the Wrath of God.

This is a bold statement; but incorrect. C 4 C, are we under God's wrath now, as we write? Of course not! God's wrath (or the coming of His wrath, is written at the 6th seal, not the first seal.

Rev. 6
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Logically & analytically all must read Rev 6:16-17 also in context with verse 15, etc to get a better understanding of what the people are saying & why the people (who was left-behind) on Earth said what's recorded in the Bible that they will be saying (Rev 6:15-17):

[quote="Rev 6:15-17 (KJV)":50b7d]

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now the statements contained in verses 15-17 is indicative of many people (from various classes) wanting to try to hide themselves from the Wrath of God which had occured, is occuring & (for 7 years) will continue to occur.

Since the 21 judgments of God is His (7 (seals) + 7 (trumpets) + 7 (vials) = 21 judgments) Wrath, you must not remove, exclude, etc any of His words, by saying that God's Wrath begins with the (6) six seal you instantaneously delete the (5) five seals that came before it & simultaneously you lessen God's 21 judgments down to 16 judgments.
Which (Lecoop & others) is non-scriptual & is violation(s) of His word(s). :smt018

NOTE: The Bible declare(s) that we (the blood brought individuals before the great caught-up event) isn't & can't be under the Tribulation & the Great Tribulation judgements of God for more than one reason. :smt045

EXAMPLE: we may (foolishly) want to try & dictate to God (only) to do what we want Him to do, (only) say what we want Him to say, (only) send to Earth what we want Him to send, etc...
But, it's not going to occur that way. :smt018

Vic is right here: the seals are not a part of God's wrath. Neither are there "21" judgements from God. The correct answer is 14: seven trumpets and seven vials.

Coop

According to you own (above) recent statement God's Wrath begins with the (6) six seal, which therefore presents 16 judgments in which is non-scriptual & (according to the Bible is extremely dangerous) I knowing that God's (end times) Wrath consists of (3) three columns containing (7) seven items in each column, so (3 x 7 = 21) (or, 7 x 3 = 21) I will respectfully have to disagree with all of your (above) conclusion(s) & statement(s) for scriptual reasons. :smt045[/quote:50b7d]

I had thought that you would perhaps dig deep and find out why I said what I said - but alas, you just skim over things, and miss althgether what the author's intent was. Since you are so sure of yourself, and desire to make the timing of the first seal some time in our future, rather than when the author intended, now you must research and answer these questions:

In chapters 4 and 5, when John saw the vision of the throne room:

1) Why was not Jesus seen at the right hand of the Father?
Note: there are at least 18 verses that tell us Jesus went to be at the father's right hand.

2) Why was it that the search John watched for a man worthy to break the seals, was completed in failure?
Note: the time was approximately 95 AD, long after Jesus rose from the dead.

3) Why was the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He was ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down to earth?

4) Which of the four horsemen rides alone?

5) please identify the word or words about the first seal, that you show you anything evil or related to judgement with the first horseman.

When you understand the answer to these questions, you will have passed "prophecy 101" and will then understand the true number of judgements in Revelation.

Next, please pinpoint for me where you see the abomination of desolation in Revelation.

Coop

 

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[lecoop]

C 4 C wrote,

Logically & analytically I (strongly) believe that, I know exactly what message(s) you're trying to convey, but to confirm my assumption(s) why don't you answer your (6) questions for me (or, CF).

I knew you did not know the answers, else you would not have written tradition rather than truth. :wink:

Coop

 

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[lecoop]

I knew you did not know the answers, else you would not have written tradition rather than truth. :wink:

Coop

Interesting..... you're using reverse psychology.

I already know (as a nondenominational prophecy teacher) that your 6 questions will put you in the non-scriptural category once again, your (6) questions is indicative of someone whom is absolutely determined to propagate your false doctrine(s), violate God's word(s), etc.... It make me seriously wonder if it's your denomination that has beguiled you, or someone / thing else?

I obvious you already knew, that the appropriate answers to your questions would demonstrate just how far you've stepped-away from God's word(s), if "prophecy 101"is truly your area of expertise, prove it by answering your own (6) questions so that I may confirm my assumption(s).

No, I just asked you first, and I think you should at least attempt to answer the questions.

False doctrine? What about this is false doctrine:

Rev 6
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

This is scripture. Nothing false about it. Read it carefully, then please tell me why, in a vision given approximately 95 AD that no one was found worthy.

What about this is false?

Rev 4
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Compare with:

Acts 7
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:1
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Can you explain why, when Jesus ascended to the right had of the Father in approximately 33 AD, that John did not see Him there in a vision in about 95 AD? In verse five above, the Holy Spirit (the seven spirits of God) are there in the throne room, yet we read:

John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

So, some 60 years after Jesus ascended to the throne, and sent the Holy Spirit down, John saw the Holy Spirit in the throne room. Can you explain this?

You can continue to write opinions, but without any scriptural proof, they will seem like babble. So tell us, since I stand accused of "propagate ...false doctrine" Who is really doing this propagating? I am using scripture, and you are using theory.

I did not ask for "appropriate answers." I want to see if you have any understanding at all of these scriptures. I would hope that you would give "scriptural" answers. So far, you have offered nothing but opinion. Please, put some scripture in your next answer. It carries FAR more weight than opinion.

As long as you don't answer these questions, the readers will assume that you do not know the answers. I have already assumed that. Please, change my mind?

Finally, there will be no "denominations" in heaven.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

C 4 C wrote

Logically & analytically all must read Rev 6:16-17 also in context with verse 15, etc to get a better understanding of what the people are saying & why the people (who was left-behind) on Earth said what's recorded in the Bible that they will be saying (Rev 6:15-17):

(Emphasis added to quote)

Please note the hightlighted phrase in the above quote: "who were left behind on earth." Of course this brings to mind the "left behind" series of books, and of course this is speaking of people being left behind at the rapture.

Therefore, what C 4 C would have the readers believe, is that the rapture of the church must have taken place somewhere before these scriptures in Rev 6:16.

C 4 C, please enlighten us as to what scripture you are using to prove that the rapture will have already taken place at this point it John's narrative.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

C 4 C wrote,

Since the 21 judgments of God is His (7 (seals) + 7 (trumpets) + 7 (vials) = 21 judgments) Wrath, you must not remove, exclude, etc any of His words, by saying that God's Wrath begins with the (6) six seal you instantaneously delete the (5) five seals that came before it & simultaneously you lessen God's 21 judgments down to 16 judgments.
Which (Lecoop & others) is non-scriptual & is violation(s) of His word(s).

Perhaps, since you accuse me of being "non-scriptural," back up your "opinion" with scripture. Show us in black and white that the first seal is part of God's wrath. If you cannot, then it is you that is (embarassingly) believing false doctrine.

I have not and am not "remove, exclude, etc any of His words." That is just more of your opinion. The first seal is still there, for anyone to read and understand. (Sadly, some do NOT undertand!) What I am doing, is putting the first seal in its proper place - as John has shown us - outside of God's wrath.

By the way, what part of God's wrath would be involved in martyring His own saints? (how silly can some people be?)

What part of God's wrath is obeying the commandment to "go and make disciples of all nations?"

Of course, any beginning reader would understand that God would not be angry at His own saints, and would not martyr them! Neither would God be angry at his saints for going into all the world, as He told us to do.

Therefore, it is up to you, C 4 C, to exegete for us, and prove to the readers that seals 1-5 are indeed God's wrath. If you fail in this - which you surely will - then it will be you that is non-scriptural.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Therefore, it is up to you, C 4 C, to exegete for us, and prove to the readers that seals 1-5 are indeed God's wrath. If you fail in this - which you surely will - then it will be you that is non-scriptural.

Hi Coop. We have disagreed in the past on some aspects of End times, which is natural between believers, but our common denominator has always been being able to distinguish between persecution & tribulation by Satan and God's Wrath. We both agree that the Bible teaches us God's wrath consists of primarily the trumpets and bowls (vials).

I believe to suggest most of the seal are part of God's wrath, is bad exegesis.

 

[lecoop]

Therefore, it is up to you, C 4 C, to exegete for us, and prove to the readers that seals 1-5 are indeed God's wrath. If you fail in this - which you surely will - then it will be you that is non-scriptural.

Hi Coop. We have disagreed in the past on some aspects of End times, which is natural between believers, but our common denominator has always been being able to distinguish between persecution & tribulation by Satan and God's Wrath. We both agree that the Bible teaches us God's wrath consists of primarily the trumpets and bowls (vials).

I believe to suggest most of the seal are part of God's wrath, is bad exegesis.

Exactly! We both back up what we write, with scriptural proof.

Coop

 

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[Vic C.]

Vic C, (if I remember correctly) through different books, you've tried to get the Bible to validate:

Mid-Tribulation
Post-Tribulation
Postmillennialism
Amillenialism

Which (due to falsehoods) it can not.

:-D OK :

Actually, you remember incorrectly. I suggested a type of Pre-Wrath harpazo.

Please, show me one verse, just one verse that says the ekklesia will be whisked away and not endure tribulation of any magnitude. Because, that is the only difference between tribulation and Great Tribulation, magnitude and intensity. But you won't see this because like many others, you have been indoctrinated into the false belief that pretribulationism is Biblical and true. The reality is it doesn't interpret scripture in a literal fashion, even though it claims as much.

Basically it takes the clear teaching that the ekklesia has and will suffer tribulation and thumbs it's nose at God and His word. It suggests in many places that well, scripture says that, but it really means this, all the while ignoring any historical element as though history doesn't exist or that scripture had no meaning whatsoever to the audience at hand. What a great injustice done to God's written word.

What a great injustice you do to yourself by casually disregarding and discarding any other view of eschatology and embracing the one that is least Biblical. But we all have opinions and this one is mine.

 

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[lecoop]

I never said that the Bible is false, or contains false doctrines, (take no offence, but) I believe your interpretation(s) of them is false.

What did I say that would give you even one hint that I believe the bible is false? Of course the bible is not false. However, some of man's ideas about what the bible means is false. You STILL have not answered the question: why was no man found worthy?

Your (above) statement is implying one, or all of the following falsehoods:

[*]Jesus Christ took a minimum of 60 years to get back to (the third) heaven (& this is why John didn't see Him on the throne in his vision, etc).

You missed this by a country mile! I am not in the least implying this. Where is your understanding? Perhaps if you can understand what John is doing in Revelation 12, verses 1-5, you will be able to understand what he is doing here. Notice the facts: John saw this vision in about 95 AD - about 60 years after Jesus rose from the dead. I asked you, why did not John see Jesus at the right hand of the Father? There is a valid reason why he did not - and that reason is NOT that it took Jesus 60 years to get there! How funny! Read Rev 12, 1-5, and see what John is doing in those verses, and that will be a clue.

[*]Even though the Bible said that, God the Holy Spirit (or, the third person of the trinity) is ubiquitous He is not really omnipresent, etc.

Perhaps this was the least valid of my questions, and not fair. There was a man that was taken to heaven, about 20 years ago. In the throne room, he "bit the dust!" He had no power to stand. As he was lying flat, he watched Jesus walk right into the Father, and the two become one. Then walk out and they were again, two. Then he asked the angel with him, "I see Jesus - and I see the Father - but where is the HOly Spirit?" The angel answered him, "He is down on the earth!" And, in fact, that is exactly what Jesus said He would do. However, that being said, the Holy Spirit is also everywhere.

[*]That the Bible (from Genesis to Revelations) is really a book of lies, deceptions, etc.[/list]

No, I am not at all saying that. You think I am saying that, simply because you don't understand these questions, and because you think I am wrong. However, if you hang around, we will get to the real answers. I do wish you would apply yourself, and try to answer them the best you can.

From what I've read of your (above) statement(s), I still would be compelled to say that, it's you who is propagating falsehoods by trying hard to get the Bible scripture(s) to confirm your falseness.

My statements were actually questions, about specific verses. How can questions be propagating falsehood? Of course, it is because you don't understand the scriptures in question, nor do you understand the answers.

I don't know what denomination you've subscribed to, but I am (to a degree) amazed that you can't see that the Bible itself shows that you're wrong, perhaps it's the particular translations which you've used, etc.

Please, bless the readers, and point out where I am wrong, using the scriptures. And really, most translations say nearly the same thing. No matter what translation being used, the point is, we must understand it.

That was extremely hilarious, because it's not by no man that I rise, or fall, live, or die.... the other readers, you, etc has been given free agency to decide for yourselves what is good, or evil (after all)

I am glad you see some humor! : -)) All I am doing is trying to get you to see the intent of the author in chapters 5 and 6. I know you have to dig deep. I know it is not easy. I waited on the Lord for almost a year, waiting for revelation knowledge on chapter 17. I will give you one hint. I bugged God about 5:4: asking God why it was important that we know John wept. After weeks, He answered me. He said, "it shows timing." It took me about two more months to understand what He meant. The key to understanding this, is the very questions I have asked you.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Interesting, your being subtly cunning & every hillarious by even implying that, I ever insinuated that the caught-up (or, rapture) call occurs at Rev 6:16. :smt018

C 4 C, you must learn to read more closely!

Therefore, what C 4 C would have the readers believe, is that the rapture of the church must have taken place somewhere before these scriptures in Rev 6:16.

coop

 

[lecoop]

Interesting, your being subtly cunning & every hillarious by even implying that, I ever insinuated that the caught-up (or, rapture) call occurs at Rev 6:16. :smt018

C 4 C, you must learn to read more closely!

Therefore, what C 4 C would have the readers believe, is that the rapture of the church must have taken place somewhere before these scriptures in Rev 6:16.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

denomination(s), tradition(s), etc teaches that, God (who is a perfect sphere) is only one sided...

God in His own words tells us that, it's Him who created good & evil, light & darkness, the seeing & the blind, ect & not Satan.

You obviously don't realize that, (to show who has supremacy) non of the seals, trumpets, or vials are even present in hell to be open (for good reasons &) the act of (God) allowing Satan to kill, steal & destroy in itself is part of His Wrath, the Bible declare(s) that people who are not Christians God's wrath, or judgement is stored-up for them.

Once again, it's not God's fault that people will miss the caught-up (or, rapture) call, Christians & non-Christians have been given free agency to use correctly or, squander, it's not God's fault that the you decided to accept Jusus Christ as Lord & savior at 10:30 Am, but the rapture occured at 10:00 am & you was not taken away, caught-up, raptured etc with those who are Christians, just as much as it's not God's fault at His great white throne judgement whoever name isn't in His book (of eternal life) will have sentenced themselves to the lake of fire & not God who sentenced them.

So far, only opinion.

"Therefore, it is up to you, C 4 C, to exegete for us, and prove to the readers that seals 1-5 are indeed God's wrath." Scripture, my friend, scripture!

Coop