CatholicXian said:
I am so thankful that my salvation, and the salvation of all men, is not based on a "perhaps".
Yet you want to not only hold onto this puff of smoke, but you attempt to convince others of it eternal status.
"Perhaps"........ vagueness at its best. Pure satanic deception at its best.
And please don't become offended, I just want to be strong in pointing out that nothing of God is based on a "perhaps".
CatholicXian said:
..... cj, in using the word "woman" in Galatians, Paul is identfying the same "woman" that Christ identified in John 2:4. The woman of Genesis, the woman of Galatians, and the woman of Revelation.
Jesus is not born of Eve, cj, as I'm sure you know. Thus, the woman in Genesis 3:15 cannot be Eve.
No, Jesus was not physically born of Eve, but just as surely, Jesus was not physically conceived of mankind/Mary, but of the Holy Spirit. Meaning, Mary was simply a container chosen by God for the purpose of the humanity aspect of Jesus, a humanity that finds its begining in Adam.
This humanity began with first Adam and ended with the Last Adam (or "perhaps" you have forgotten that Jesus is called the last Adam?)
But you also ignored my point about both Paul and the Holy Spirit knowing the name of the "woman", yet no name was referred to, only the general physical gender..... why? If it is so important that we recognize Mary as "the woman" why not simply say Mary instead of "woman"?
I'll tell you why........ because God is no respecter of men, including Mary, and thus no name (which denotes the person of that name) is included in the matter of Christ's person.
It is actually an insult to God that any try to elevate a man through their humanity. Humanity in God's eyes is only unrighteous, with the one exception being Christ, who was righteous in His humanity as a result of being conceived out of divinity. His humanity was simply temporary clothing for His eternal divinity. Yet, through His own choice, He made Himself (in divinity) and His humanity one in being and living.
He, God, did this..... by His choice. Not Mary. She played no part in anything regarding His will and His being/living. Mary was simply a human vessel, in the same line of the first human vessel of this kind, Eve.
CatholicXian said:
Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."
What seed does either the woman or the serpent have? What is God speaking of here?
CatholicXian said:
John 2:4 "Jesus said to her, Woman, what do I have to do with you? My hour has not yet come."
Actually, the above is not a good translation, try..... "Woman, what do I have in this that concerns you?"
Yes, Jesus, although using a word of respect and endearment towards Mary, Himself declared that He in His coming to men had no relationship with fallen humanity.
See, right in this scripture we can see tha Mary was not speaking for God as she was attempting to get Jesus to do that which He was not yet ready to do.
This scripture is a rebuke to men who would attempt to force the Lord's hand, and a definite declaration of Mary's fallen state.
But, the Lord is merciful, and as we can know from scripture, God will even allow us to command Him.
CatholicXian said:
John 19:26 "Then when Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, Woman, behold your son!
In Luke 23:43 the Lord said to one of the two thieves crucified with Him, "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." That word was in regard to salvation, since Luke's Gospel proves that the Lord is the sinner's Savior. Here, in vv. 26-27, the Lord said to His mother, "Behold, your son," and to the disciple whom He loved, "Behold, your mother." These words indicate a life-union, since this Gospel testifies that the Lord is life imparted into His believers. It is by this life that His beloved disciple could be one with Him and become the son of His mother, and that she could become the mother of His beloved disciple.
Again, not "My mother, behold your son", but just "woman/person, behold, by my life in both of you, you and another will become one.
This is to understand that the bible is a book on life, and that all things need to be understood in this light. Jesus is the reality, He is life, and thus all His words are about life, in life, and unto life.
But men take His words and attempt to make doctrines out of them.
CatholicXian said:
Galatians 4:4 "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, coming into being out of a woman, having come under Law,"
Isaiah  7 : 14
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you......
a sign:...... Behold, the virgin will conceive and will bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel."
Only God can speak and then bring what was spoken to pass. This is a sign for us.
Mary, was simply a sign that God can do what He says He can do.
All scripture must be used in order to gain the fullness of the revelation it can bring.
Isaiah  7 : 14
CatholicXian said:
Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head,"
Again, let's see that the verse begins with the declaration of the "woman" being a great sign....
Revelation  1 : 1
"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John,......"
All things in written to us in this book are made know by signs, or in other words, the significance is related to God proving His word is true.
The first section of this book, composed of the first eleven chapters, covers all things that occur from Christ's ascension to eternity. The second section, composed of the last eleven chapters, gives details of the important things and crucial matters occurring from the last three and a half years of the present age, which will be the period of the great tribulation, to the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth. The first of the important things and crucial matters revealed in this section is a woman who brought forth a man-child.
This woman is "clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." In Gen. 37:9, Joseph in his dream saw the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars, signifying his father, his mother, and his eleven brothers. There the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars, plus Joseph himself, signified the totality of God's people on the earth. Based on the principle of that dream, the sun, the moon, and the twelve stars here must signify the totality of God's people on earth, which is symbolized here by a woman. Most of her being is clothed with the sun. The sun signifies God's people in the New Testament age. Before Christ came to the world, it was the dark night of the Old Testament age. When Christ as the rising sun came from on high (Luke 1:78), the age of the sun came. Before that, it was the age of the moon, which signifies God's people in the Old Testament time. The moon is underneath the feet of the woman, for the age of the moon was the age of the law, which should not be exalted as the stars are. The stars, which signify the patriarchs, God's people before the law was given, are on her head as a crown. All God's people in these three ages, who together constitute this woman, are light bearers. Hence, she is the bright woman shining throughout all generations.
CatholicXian said:
Obviously the verses in John's Gospel directly refer to Mary. Galatians does as well, for Jesus is BORN of Mary. The verse in Relevalation also symbolizes the Church, but first and foremost it represents Mary because only Mary, and not the Church, gives birth to Jesus Christ. Thus, the Seed of Victory (the Seed that triumphs over Satan and his evil seed) who is Jesus Christ is the Seed of the woman-- and the woman must be Mary, not Eve. Jesus is born of Mary (as Galatians 4:4 establishes).
I never said differently, Jesus was physically born of Mary, just as Mary can physicall be traced back to Eve. And this Eve being in a fallen state, means that Mary also was in a fallen state.
But lets look at what you are suggesting.....
You state that "first and foremost it represents Mary".... "because only Mary, and not the Church, gives birth to Jesus Christ."
You place Mary before the Church? This is absolutely anti-Christ speaking.
God gave His only Son unto death that the Church, not Mary, be formed through and in His death.
Furthermore, the child is not Jesus, it is the overcoming Church....
Revelation  12 : 5
"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."
Revelation  2 : 26 ---- Revelation  2 : 27
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father;"
Revelation  12 : 2
"And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth."
Travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth signifies that throughout all generations God's people have been suffering the travail of delivery (Isa. 26:17-18; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Gal. 4:19) to bring forth the man-child that he may fight for God's kingdom."
Isaiah  26 : 17 ---- Isaiah  26 : 18
"As a pregnant woman draws near to giving birth, She writhes and cries out in her pain; So we have been before You, O Jehovah. We were pregnant; we writhed; we gave birth, as it were, to wind. We have not accomplished deliverance for the earth, Nor have the inhabitants of the world been born."
Jeremiah  6 : 24
"We have heard its report; Our hands are feeble; Distress has seized us, Pain like a woman in childbirth."
Jeremiah  13 : 21
"What will you say when He appoints over you as head Those whom you yourself have trained to be your friends? Will not pains take hold of you, Like those of a woman in travail?"
Jeremiah  30 : 6
"Ask now and see Whether a man can give birth. Why do I see every man With his hands on his loins like a woman about to give birth And every face turned pale?"
Micah  4 : 9 ---- Micah  4 : 10
"Why do you now cry out aloud? Is there no king among you? Has your counselor perished, That pain has seized you like a woman delivering a child? Suffer the pain and thrust forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman delivering a child. For now you will go forth from the city And dwell in the field; And you will go into Babylon. And there you will be delivered; There Jehovah will redeem you From the hand of your enemies."
Micah  5 : 3
"Therefore He will give them up until the time When she who is in labor delivers the child; Then the remainder of His brothers will return, Along with the children of Israel."
Galatians  4 : 19
"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you,"
The woman in Revelation 12 : 1 is not Mary, but is symbolic of all those who have believed in faith, unto the purpose/goal of God gaining that which He desires...... Zion, the highest point in His city.
Because you are not clear about the truth contained in all scriptures, you are easily mislead.
In love,
cj
